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(Book Spoilers) Arya and Tywin, what if........


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#41 Raja

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:38 PM

With regards to half hand , my feeling is that they're going to build that up to the last episode . That would make a stellar finale , given the way that the last scene with the Half hand plays out and its consequences. It will be interesting to see how it plays out , especially given how Jon was left off in the last episode. If they can somehow work that out , and bring the Jon story in line with how it goes in the books by the end of the season. I would think that would be a great last few sequences.

Not sure where they seem to be going with Arya to be frank , as they've been building up the Arya / Tywin relationship for the whole series almost. Which is why I'm curious how it plays out. If they don't have a good / adequate pay off towards the end . I would imagine a lot of non book readers will be very pissed off

Edited by Raja, 16 May 2012 - 08:42 PM.


#42 towerofjoy

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:43 PM

I think Tywin will get word that Highgarden will agree to an alliance with the Lannisters. They will all take off for KL. Arya will be left behind like she was when Roose left. The Mountain will arrive at Harrenhal with prisoners. Then the whole soup sequence will happen and Arya's story will close as it did in the books.

Tywin will suspect Arya slipped under his nose after Blackwater when he realizes Cersei doesn't have her. And boy is Daddy going to be cranky!!!

#43 Hear Us Roar

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 12:28 AM

i am a bit bored with their weekly chat in that chamber. Get out of the castle and change things up. We have seen enough of them in this setting.

#44 boojam

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 05:04 AM

rant: of all the things to leave out, weasel soup?!? weasel soup?!? that's the reason jaqen gives her the coin b/c he respects her and thinks she could make a great assassin someday (aww how sweet) -- but in the preview for next episode she distinctly tells jaqen "you have to kill him now" which probably refers to tywin -- b/c tywin is leaving -- which presents a weird problem for the jaqen storyline -- if he agrees, then tywin dies now and doesnt do everything he is supposed to do which doesnt make any sense - and if jaqen refuses, then it goes against his whole you pick a name and the deed will be done thing, which doesnt make sense either. also, it would mean that weasel soup is very friggin unlikely. ugh. as much as i love those scenes, i feel like they shouldve had him leave last episode at the latest and had the northern prisoners brought in.


Here is my guess the 'him' in that dialog is neither Tywin or The Mountin , this is the Arya trick 'him' as in the book.
Tywin and Ser Gregor play such important roles in SoS they have to remain alive.

One thing we know , in E7 , from Tryion that Stannis is either four or five days away from KL. This makes the situation at KL absolutely dire. Tywin gets one of these faster than light Ravens telling him this, that knowledge has to take precedence over anything that is going on. He has to assemble his army and leave pronto!
I don't know who will be left as castellan of Harrenhal since Ser Amory pushing up daises. It was a skeleton crew anyway, some anonymous guys or maybe Polliver since he is cast and has had a speaking role.
I agree with those who say it's likely Tywin knows Arya is not a commoner, but does not know she is Arya.
His instructions maybe just to keep an eye on her. If he knows she is Arya he may not want to take her, as of the moment, because things about to get super dangerous.
Yes I think that pushes, possibly, Weasel Soup off into E10.
If they push Soup and House of the Undying off into E10, then E9+E10 will will be top the season with fireworks!

Edited by boojam, 17 May 2012 - 05:08 AM.


#45 gogorath

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 11:00 AM

boojam,

Agree. I think she goes to Jaqen and says, "I have the third name. But you have to do it immediately." And he accedes. And then she says the name she says in the book - cliffhanger.

I do think there's a chance that we love the particulars of Weasel Soup -- the mechanics of how Arya gets where she's going. I'd prefer not, but if it happens, I hope the replacement is cool.

Lastly, I do not think anyone could ever call Tywin stupid or incompetent for letting Arya escape with the help of a supernatural assassin. In the book, faceless men cost a ridiculous amount of money; expecting his random high born hostage to have that kind of resource in her back pocket is pretty hard to anticipate, no?

#46 summer_stark

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 06:17 PM

Here is my guess the 'him' in that dialog is neither Tywin or The Mountin , this is the Arya trick 'him' as in the book.


Spoiler
this wouldn't make sense unless northerners were brought in -- what other reason would she have for naming him?

#47 boojam

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 07:12 PM

boojam,

Agree. I think she goes to Jaqen and says, "I have the third name. But you have to do it immediately." And he accedes. And then she says the name she says in the book - cliffhanger.

I do think there's a chance that we love the particulars of Weasel Soup -- the mechanics of how Arya gets where she's going. I'd prefer not, but if it happens, I hope the replacement is cool.

Lastly, I do not think anyone could ever call Tywin stupid or incompetent for letting Arya escape with the help of a supernatural assassin. In the book, faceless men cost a ridiculous amount of money; expecting his random high born hostage to have that kind of resource in her back pocket is pretty hard to anticipate, no?


In the book it's Jaqen who comes to her because he has a deadline to meet and needs a third name.

Ever think it odd that one of the few men in Westeros who could afford a FM and a FM are in the same location at the same time?
However , as we find out , much later, the FM have a complex code about 'hiring out', they have inscrutable reasons , not always money is involved.
I would not call Jaqen a supernatural assassin., even they know so strange magic stuff, seems they are really not even assassins but something beyond that, with an agenda of their own, and maybe party to a strange conspiracy.
The only thing we really know about them, if you become one of their targets, kiss your ass goodby.

Edited by boojam, 17 May 2012 - 07:15 PM.


#48 boojam

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 07:18 PM

Spoiler
this wouldn't make sense unless northerners were brought in -- what other reason would she have for naming him?


That's the way it is in the book.
How D&D handle the rest of story need not follow the book, as long as a certain, shall we say, kitchen scenario is followed.

Edited by boojam, 17 May 2012 - 07:19 PM.


#49 summer_stark

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 07:58 PM

That's the way it is in the book. How D&D handle the rest of story need not follow the book, as long as a certain, shall we say, kitchen scenario is followed.


well, unless she did name him, his reasoning for helping is random, especially in light of his earlier talk of 3 deaths no more. so there needs to be a catalyst for naming him; as well as naming him for the story to really work. sure they could have gendry and hot pie help, but that doesnt explain what is going on w/her asking jaqen to kill someone now -- and it doesn't explain why he would go on to help her -- since her naming him after he says i cant do it now (if he says that) would just mean he would go and kill whomever she named.

so before, when you said that's how she uses her trick, it doesn't explain how she gets his help with weasel soup instead. maybe we will get it -- and it's one of my favorite acok scenes, so i really hope we do get it, but the way they're setting up her storyline now, i am concerned that we won't get it and she will use her third death in a more conventional way, to kill someone else random or the guard for her escape -- but i seriously hope i'm wrong. weasel soup, giving of the coin, and escaping are my favorite parts of her story in acok, and maybe of that book in general.

Edited by summer_stark, 17 May 2012 - 08:01 PM.


#50 boojam

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 08:39 PM

so before, when you said that's how she uses her trick, it doesn't explain how she gets his help with weasel soup instead. maybe we will get it -- and it's one of my favorite acok scenes, so i really hope we do get it, but the way they're setting up her storyline now, i am concerned that we won't get it and she will use her third death in a more conventional way, to kill someone else random or the guard for her escape -- but i seriously hope i'm wrong. weasel soup, giving of the coin, and escaping are my favorite parts of her story in acok, and maybe of that book in general.


I am guessing you read the book?
Arya gets very elaborate with Jaqen, making sure he will accept her request when she pulls the surprise name on him. In fact for a FM he seems surprised that he could be trapped like that. Which is what makes this rather lengthy exchange between Arya and Jaqen so delicious, I hope D&D see it this way too.
(I have always thought it was the test Jaqen was looking for , something so unexpected that now he had to give her the coin and tell her what to say and where to go.)(As I have noted, in the book he has known she was Arya Stark , apparently even before they left KL. And he tells her straight out , in that 'trick scene' that he knows who she is. How?... would not be hard for a FM, why, man I have don't have a clue, even by the end of ADwD.)

Edited by boojam, 17 May 2012 - 08:40 PM.


#51 boojam

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 08:44 PM

Has anybody noticed in the exchange with Tywin how enthused Arya is about Visenya Targaryen, Vhagar and Dark Sister?
I wonder if this is more than it seems? Have we found the second head of the dragon?
It has been suggested.
(And nothing is known about the whereabouts of Dark Sister... hmmm.)

Edited by boojam, 17 May 2012 - 08:45 PM.


#52 summer_stark

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:40 PM

yes, read it a few times. and as i've said elsewhere, i also think the reason he gives her the coin is because he respects what she does and thinks she has potential. but first she asks for his help in weasel soup. he says no--you only get one more death. she says ok and goes into the it can be anyone speech, trapping him, then she names him. so here, if she doesn't name him, then the coin thing is odd; if she names him instead of naming one other person to kill, it makes no sense. if she names him to get help escaping, we get the coin but not guard coin trick or weasel soup.

i've thought arya could be one of the dragon head -- or jon or even a combination of bran and arya. bran controls, arya rides --that would be my favorite since they're my favorite characters. but then i feel bad b/c i love the direwolves more than most of the characters, so i feel like if i want them to be heads of the dragon, i am dissing the direwolves. lol.

#53 boojam

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 11:18 PM

yes, read it a few times. and as i've said elsewhere, i also think the reason he gives her the coin is because he respects what she does and thinks she has potential. but first she asks for his help in weasel soup. he says no--you only get one more death. she says ok and goes into the it can be anyone speech, trapping him, then she names him. so here, if she doesn't name him, then the coin thing is odd; if she names him instead of naming one other person to kill, it makes no sense. if she names him to get help escaping, we get the coin but not guard coin trick or weasel soup.

Alas we are trapped since it's George who wrote the sequence and Arya named him(in the book) and no one else, after making sure he would honor the request.
Jaqen is not pleased, but he can see she has him trumped,and has to , on the spot, change his rules, he did not expect that.

Edited by boojam, 17 May 2012 - 11:18 PM.


#54 summer_stark

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 11:32 PM

right but the point i'm trying to make is that she has to have a reason to name him -- and if he doesn't refuse to do something for her first, like say free northerners, then what reason would she have for naming him?? he has to refuse to help her do something first. she wouldn't just name him -- she names him as a way to get his help, not b/c she's malicious.

maybe i'm missing your point though. mine is just that if she names him to help herself escape then that's a bummer b/c i like that she did it on her own. and if it's not for weasel soup, i can't see another reason to name him. can you?

Edited by summer_stark, 17 May 2012 - 11:35 PM.


#55 boojam

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 05:29 AM

right but the point i'm trying to make is that she has to have a reason to name him -- and if he doesn't refuse to do something for her first, like say free northerners, then what reason would she have for naming him?? he has to refuse to help her do something first. she wouldn't just name him -- she names him as a way to get his help, not b/c she's malicious.

maybe i'm missing your point though. mine is just that if she names him to help herself escape then that's a bummer b/c i like that she did it on her own. and if it's not for weasel soup, i can't see another reason to name him. can you?


We know what happens in the novel.

So we are talking about the show , we have to see how D&D write it.
One thing I have found one cannot really go with those microsecond sound bites HBO gives us.
I am curious myself, because George wrote a gem of a scenario and it's hard to believe D&D will mess it up.

Edited by boojam, 18 May 2012 - 05:30 AM.


#56 weirwood woman

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 06:42 AM

Just going back to something mentioned earlier in regard to LF recognizing Arya and using that knowledge (which is power) to assist Tywin with a fake Arya set up... I hadn't thought of it that way because in many earlier scenes with LF back in Kings Landing there is girl in the background, with hair cut like Arya, doing various chores like scrubbing the floors. I thought after seeing this servant a few times how much she looked like her and was there any significance to her always in the same scenes with LF. Once LF came to Harrenhal and was intrigued by the cupbearer, it occurred to me that maybe it was the servant girl that he was thinking about. Well I sure hoped he wasn't going to recognize her as Arya!

#57 Forgiven

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 06:59 AM

I don't think this Tywin thing has gone beyond redemption, and I have enjoyed it a lot too...
The scene with littlefinger, once again, made littlefinger seem bit too obvious about his interest...
But nonetheless, if we take this as something Tywin does for amusement over a puzzle he hasn't quite yet cracked...
So we get to ep. 18, Mountain returns with northener prisoners (wish there were a scene with Robb sending Bolton to take Harrenhall before then, little premonition and news of Stannis' movement towards KL should make him see the strategic advantage, either assure Tywin doesn't go to KL as he has Northern army approaching, or actually take Harrenhall if Tywin does leave with his army...). Somewhere towards the end of episode, Tywin leaves with Mountain to KL, however, my major problem here is that 'who does he leave in command' as I don't think we have a Goat cast, one can hope this isn't true... And, why doesn't Tywin take Arya? Harrenhall is big place, if Tywin hears of Stannis and decides he needs to rush, he's not going to worry about a cupbearer, no matter how intriguing, if she can't be found when needed. And Jagen can refuse on 'sorry, too busy, can't do that right now basis', he was pissed off enough after the last time she rushed him.
Then ep19/20, soup goes here, I'm not actually quite sure if we get an escape this season, they might want to give her some time with bolton too...

...and less travelling around, travel is bad on screen... So her leaving HH 'just before' Jaime arrives shouldn't be a problem.

Edited by Forgiven, 18 May 2012 - 07:00 AM.


#58 imbs

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 11:41 AM

i am confused as to why people think that tywin knows or has deducted who Arya is. He has too much pride in his twins to come to such a conclusion that requires him to make the assumption that Cersei is incompetent enough to let it happen imo. Cersei is not Tyrion.

#59 Rickon is FIERCE

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 12:34 PM

Anything they do now though is unrealistic. They screwed themselves with this Grandpa Tywin and Arya storyline. If he releases a high-born captive like Arya, he's an idiot. If he lets her escape with this knowledge, he's an idiot.


Exactly.

#60 Rickon is FIERCE

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 12:48 PM

i am confused as to why people think that tywin knows or has deducted who Arya is. He has too much pride in his twins to come to such a conclusion that requires him to make the assumption that Cersei is incompetent enough to let it happen imo. Cersei is not Tyrion.


We know from previous episodes that Tyrion has been continually updating Tywin on matters in KL. I can't imagine him leaving out the detail of Arya's disappearance. One could argue that he wants to protect her somehow, but considering the fact that he has made an offer to exchange her and Sansa for his beloved Jaime he's going to want her back, and I can't see how he wouldn't use Tywin and his resources in that hunt. And he's not so kind-hearted as to put a Stark above Jaime, no matter how the show is watering him down.

He's also not going to keep that information secret for Cersei's sake, nor because he's worried about how it looks for him, as he wasn't around when the escape went down. I can see him diplomatically and strategically hiding the fact of Arya's escape from most people, but not Tywin.