85 replies to this topic

[dtones520]

I think that Tywin knows who Arya is and somehow she will find out that he knows. Which will then prompt the Weasel soup scene, but it will lead to her escape. The way he talks to her makes me think he has to know who she is. She has the Stark look, she is obviously highborn, he has to know Arya is missing. Heck, I think the fact he made her his cupbearer is because he knew as soon as he saw her. He wanted to keep her close and safe, without her knowing he was on to her.

Tywin Lannister is too clever to be outsmarted by a 13 year old girl, or however old she is in the show.

[Rockroi]

I think that Tywin's knowledge of who this high-born girl is is open eneded.  The writers have done such a good job that everything from "Tywin looking over the Blackwater and being told that Arya Stark has been missing, thus leading Tywin to piece together exactly who he was speaking to at Harrenhal that whole time" to "Tywin looks across the Harrenhal courtyard and says to Gregor, "Once I have left make sure you take Arya Stark back to King's Landing" is all in play.  NOTHING would surprise me at this point.

That's how good the relationship has been done this season.

[summer_stark]

yea no way he lets her go -- in fact, theres no way she is "let go" from harrenhall period, imo.  the last episode is called valar morghulis -- granted, some of their episode titles havent done a great job of coinciding w/the material *ghost in harrenhal i'm looking at you* (aside: would've been awesome if hot pie and arya met up in the kitchen or something, and he talked about how people think there's a ghost and then she could leave and smile and say i am the ghost in harrenhall -- i mean really, how much time or money would that have taken?)...

anyway, point: i think she will definitely escape and use hopefully her coin trick to do so.

as much as i love the dynamic, i too am on the fence about the logic of this move -- and as i stated in another thread -- i could see tywin finding out and that being the impetus for her leaving (either before or after tywin leaves) and thats why people will be chasing her.  i am holding out an inkling of hope for weasel soup, but at this point, it's looking pretty bad.  tywin is obv leaving next episode (which although i love the dynamic, i'm happy about b/c it leaves at least a little time for her harrenhall storyline to align w/the books) and when he does, its possible that they could still bring in a large group of northern prisoners -- and with the mountain and his men gone and tywin and his men, weasel soup could still happen -- though it would have to happen fast so she had enough time to be frightened of them enough to leave.  *sigh* the more i think about it the more i doubt it will happen.

rant: of all the things to leave out, weasel soup?!? weasel soup?!? that's the reason jaqen gives her the coin b/c he respects her and thinks she could make a great assassin someday (aww how sweet) -- but in the preview for next episode she distinctly tells jaqen "you have to kill him now" which probably refers to tywin -- b/c tywin is leaving -- which presents a weird problem for the jaqen storyline -- if he agrees, then tywin dies now and doesnt do everything he is supposed to do which doesnt make any sense - and if jaqen refuses, then it goes against his whole you pick a name and the deed will be done thing, which doesnt make sense either.  also, it would mean that weasel soup is very friggin unlikely.  ugh. as much as i love those scenes, i feel like they shouldve had him leave last episode at the latest and had the northern prisoners brought in.

[Sxxman]

This is one of the reasons why I'm glad the show deviates from the books at certain parts.  It keeps book readers guessing and creating theories as well as non-book readers.  I don't believe that Tywin knows she's Arya Stark because if he hasn't been told that Arya has escaped from KL, so he has no reason to suspect she's in Harrenhall.  He is slowly piecing together the background of his "cupbearer" but he won't realize who she is until after she's escaped.    I pity those who will feel the wrath of Tywin in episode 10 (Cersei...Tyrion....a random guard).

[The Monkey]

summer_stark, on 15 May 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

yea no way he lets her go -- in fact, theres no way she is "let go" from harrenhall period, imo.  the last episode is called valar morghulis -- granted, some of their episode titles havent done a great job of coinciding w/the material *ghost in harrenhal i'm looking at you* (aside: would've been awesome if hot pie and arya met up in the kitchen or something, and he talked about how people think there's a ghost and then she could leave and smile and say i am the ghost in harrenhall -- i mean really, how much time or money would that have taken?)...

anyway, point: i think she will definitely escape and use hopefully her coin trick to do so.

as much as i love the dynamic, i too am on the fence about the logic of this move -- and as i stated in another thread -- i could see tywin finding out and that being the impetus for her leaving (either before or after tywin leaves) and thats why people will be chasing her.  i am holding out an inkling of hope for weasel soup, but at this point, it's looking pretty bad.  tywin is obv leaving next episode (which although i love the dynamic, i'm happy about b/c it leaves at least a little time for her harrenhall storyline to align w/the books) and when he does, its possible that they could still bring in a large group of northern prisoners -- and with the mountain and his men gone and tywin and his men, weasel soup could still happen -- though it would have to happen fast so she had enough time to be frightened of them enough to leave.  *sigh* the more i think about it the more i doubt it will happen.

rant: of all the things to leave out, weasel soup?!? weasel soup?!? that's the reason jaqen gives her the coin b/c he respects her and thinks she could make a great assassin someday (aww how sweet) -- but in the preview for next episode she distinctly tells jaqen "you have to kill him now" which probably refers to tywin -- b/c tywin is leaving -- which presents a weird problem for the jaqen storyline -- if he agrees, then tywin dies now and doesnt do everything he is supposed to do which doesnt make any sense - and if jaqen refuses, then it goes against his whole you pick a name and the deed will be done thing, which doesnt make sense either.  also, it would mean that weasel soup is very friggin unlikely.  ugh. as much as i love those scenes, i feel like they shouldve had him leave last episode at the latest and had the northern prisoners brought in.

Weasel soup could easily happen. And it probably will.

I can see it being played out like this:
Episode 8: Tywin leaves, possibly telling the Mountain to guard Arya (whether he knows her true identity or not). Soon thereafter, a bunch of northern prisoners arrive in Harrenhal. Arya tells Jaq'en to kill Tywin, but when he says it will take him some time (this is probably what we saw in the preview for next episode), she instead opts to free the prisoners again, through Weasel soup The Mountain manages to escape. Later in the episode, Robb & co are informed of the take-over, and Robb sends down Roose to Harrenhal.

Episode 10: Jaq'en gives Arya the coin, changes face, and leaves. Roose arrives, and get Arya to be his cupbearer for her part in the Northern takeover. Soon thereafter, Arya realizes what sort of man Roose is (possibly by threatening/striking her for speaking out of turn, as happened in the novel). She decides to leave with Gendry and Hot Pie and cuts the Bolton guard's throat (I certainly hope they don't cut that last part, I think it's the most character defining moment in her whole story).

It can easily fit into two episode, and that's even assuming that episode 9 will only deal with the Battle of the Blackwater.

Edited by The Monkey, 15 May 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[boojam]

The Monkey, on 15 May 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Weasel soup could easily happen. And it probably will.

I can see it being played out like this:
Episode 8: Tywin leaves, possibly telling the Mountain to guard Arya (whether he knows her true identity or not). Soon thereafter, a bunch of northern prisoners arrive in Harrenhal. Arya tells Jaq'en to kill Tywin, but when he says it will take him some time (this is probably what we saw in the preview for next episode), she instead opts to free the prisoners again, through Weasel soup The Mountain manages to escape. Later in the episode, Robb & co are informed of the take-over, and Robb sends down Roose to Harrenhal.

Episode 10: Jaq'en gives Arya the coin, changes face, and leaves. Roose arrives, and get Arya to be his cupbearer for her part in the Northern takeover. Soon thereafter, Arya realizes what sort of man Roose is (possibly by threatening/striking her for speaking out of turn, as happened in the novel). She decides to leave with Gendry and Hot Pie and cuts the Bolton guard's throat (I certainly hope they don't cut that last part, I think it's the most character defining moment in her whole story).

It can easily fit into two episode, and that's even assuming that episode 9 will only deal with the Battle of the Blackwater.

I think that is a good guess. No time on the show for it, but in the book Jaqen tells Arya that who ever she names, if they are not nearby, will take longer to make a hit, in fact maybe years... tho it would eventually happen.

I don't think the Mountain will even be at Harrenhal, Twyin already sent him away.
She could even be imprisoned herself , being high born maybe 'house arrest', that would make access to Jaqen easier.
Then she pulls the trick on Jaqen and not only is she sprung but she convinces Gendry and Hot Pie too... not before Jaqen has his last talk with her.

In the book, Jaqen always knew she was Arya Stark ...interesting...., but then he is a FM ...(which we learn in later books places him in a category of people more unique than anyone in Westeros).

[jlk7e]

How loose is Arya running around Harrenhal?  No looser than Sansa is running around King's Landing, I think.

[summer_stark]

I think you have a point, Monkey -- although boojam is right, The Mountain is leaving/left already to deal w/bwb -- so that was my thinking for why it was possible -- in the sense that very few people will be left at the castle, so if the mountain or someone else comes back w/northerners, then it could happen. and i agree w/the whole jaqen saying it might take awhile and her saying nevermind -- i thought of that as well -- but still thought it was a bit silly considering that we know that jaqen can move fast -- like 30seconds and done -- fast.  granted, this is tywin not amory, but still.  seems contrived to make an attempt to say she thought about it, but not hard enough to really want it -- which in the context of her being his little buddy might make sense, except that she clearly thinks about killing nearly every episode.  granted in the books she thought about it when it was too late, but the too late thing here makes less sense.

either way, if that happens and she keeps her 3rd wish for weasel soup, i will be psyched.  and i agree re: her killing the guard is a character defining moment and i hope they leave that intact along with the coin - but since they already killed the ticker for her, i am worried they might sanitize her - though this would be absurd in the context of who she becomes...and i know they let her kill the kid last year, so maybe it will be fine.

i hope you're right Monkey -- that was essentially how i saw it going down a few episodes ago, but it just seems like a lot to fit in, so i am starting to lose hope. that and the fact that tywin knows she's at least a noble made me worry that that will be the reason she leaves and she uses her 3rd wish for the guard or something totally lame.  i think they wont be that lame though.

[Greywolf2375]

Mulled Wino, on 15 May 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure we're not going to get Weasel soup....which sucks.  That, Jon and the Halfhand getting hunted down by Rattleshirt (and Jon switching sides) AND Tyrion's chain and we basically lost 3 of the best and most TV friendly scenes in the book.

That part may not have been lost yet, and I'm really hoping it hasn't been.

As far as Tywin releasing his Arya...no.  Well, let me rephrase - not without some really hamfisted way of making it happen.

[sarah.jenice]

Mulled Wino, on 15 May 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure we're not going to get Weasel soup....which sucks.  That, Jon and the Halfhand getting hunted down by Rattleshirt (and Jon switching sides) AND Tyrion's chain and we basically lost 3 of the best and most TV friendly scenes in the book.

The Weasel soup is definitely something that I've been wondering about, and the only thing I can come up with is that, with another detour from the books, in the next episode Arya asks Jaquen to kill Tywin for her last wish, and for some reason that I am not sure of (he misses him and has to kill someone in Harrenhal maybe) Jaquen can't do it. With the last episode being called

Spoiler

Valar Morghulis

I still feel like the Weasel soup will happen and that episode will wrap Arya's story line and have Jaquen's departure and revelation of who he is. I could see her having to use the Weasel soup/Jaquen's name given trick to help her, Gendry and Hot Pie escape from Harrenhal. Actually I am not sure if she will take Hot Pie, but I'm pretty sure she will take Gendry.

On the lack of Tyrion's chain combined with the fact that Davos is leading the ships into Blackwater Bay, there would be absolutely no way Stannis would have been defeated as easily in that battle. We know from Davos's thoughts that he never would have led the men into that trap and without a chain to trap them, I don't see how someone as competent as Davos wouldn't escape. Perhaps they will change the ending and have Davos be the one who sails out of there and picks up Stannis and encourages him to leave and fight another day. We've barely seen Davos so I could see them cutting his time on the island at the beginning of Storm.

The stuff with the Halfhand, I have no idea how it will go. We have three episodes so maybe the Halfhand frees Jon in Episode 8 but the other guys are killed, Jon and the Halfhand try to flee but are slowly hunted down, someone freaking figures out Jon is a warg because they actually include Ghost in an episode and show he has the same link to his wolf as Bran, in the season finale they are finally caught again, the Halfhand says, "Is your sword sharp Jon Snow," and commands Jon to change sides, Jon kills Halfhand and joins the Wildlings with a sad look on his face, ending Jon's Season 2 story ark.

Anyone think I am close with anything? I am sometimes disappointed in the changes, but for the most part, I am just excited to see where they are taking the story.

Edited by sarah.jenice, 16 May 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[boojam]

I probably have missed it but has Tywin asked her , her name? I think he has only called her girl.
If he has not and does, I think I know what she will say.

[Mulled Wino]

turdle, on 15 May 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

see, this is a prime example of d&d making changes that just don't really work when you stop to think about them. i know everyone loves the tywin/arya dynamic, but it creates a tywin paradox. either tywin knows she is arya stark, or he doesn't. if he does know, why the hell is he letting her run loose around harenhal while her brother continues to whoop his ass time and again on the battlefield. so logically, i have to eliminate that possibility. yet tywin is so smart that he's put together that she's a highborn girl from the north, who's father was killed for "loyalty," who needs to disguise herself as a lowborn boy.  yet tywin's not smart enough to put those bits of data together to figure out who she really is.  how many highborn girls are the lanisters hunting?

lets also add, while her brother has HIS SON captive.

I completely agree with your post.  This makes tywin look bad, for no reason.at the very least, he'd be asking anyone and everyone if they know who this serving girl is, especially littlefinger when he came to visit.

Edited by Mulled Wino, 16 May 2012 - 11:14 AM.

[Mulled Wino]

sarah.jenice, on 16 May 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

The Weasel soup is definitely something that I've been wondering about, and the only thing I can come up with is that, with another detour from the books, in the next episode Arya asks Jaquen to kill Tywin for her last wish, and for some reason that I am not sure of (he misses him and has to kill someone in Harrenhal maybe) Jaquen can't do it. With the last episode being called

Spoiler

Valar Morghulis

I still feel like the Weasel soup will happen and that episode will wrap Arya's story line and have Jaquen's departure and revelation of who he is. I could see her having to use the Weasel soup/Jaquen's name given trick to help her, Gendry and Hot Pie escape from Harrenhal. Actually I am not sure if she will take Hot Pie, but I'm pretty sure she will take Gendry.

i could see this.  she needs a catalyst that makes her panic real.  maybe roose "gets captured" on his way back up north and tywin or whomever is in charge after he leaves plans to execute all the northmen

sarah.jenice, on 16 May 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

On the lack of Tyrion's chain combined with the fact that Davos is leading the ships into Blackwater Bay, there would be absolutely no way Stannis would have been defeated as easily in that battle. We know from Davos's thoughts that he never would have led the men into that trap and without a chain to trap them, I don't see how someone as competent as Davos wouldn't escape. Perhaps they will change the ending and have Davos be the one who sails out of there and picks up Stannis and encourages him to leave and fight another day. We've barely seen Davos so I could see them cutting his time on the island at the beginning of Storm.

the chain is going to have to be there, regardless of "hokeyness" I presume. but the changes are what kill those 3 scenes for me.

sarah.jenice, on 16 May 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

The stuff with the Halfhand, I have no idea how it will go. We have three episodes so maybe the Halfhand frees Jon in Episode 8 but the other guys are killed, Jon and the Halfhand try to flee but are slowly hunted down, someone freaking figures out Jon is a warg because they actually include Ghost in an episode and show he has the same link to his wolf as Bran, in the season finale they are finally caught again, the Halfhand says, "Is your sword sharp Jon Snow," and commands Jon to change sides, Jon kills Halfhand and joins the Wildlings with a sad look on his face, ending Jon's Season 2 story ark.

This is possible, but we already know the wildlings would make quick and dirty work of the halfhand as soon as they catch him, so I could see it working on TV, but probably would be a bit turned off by it.  That hunt was one of my favorite parts of ACoK.  They're already made Jon Snow look like a dolt for letting her escape and make him lose his brothers and having him beg to go on the mission with Qorin when Qorin requested he go.

Ghost?  Who's that?  Never seen him. (dont get me started)

sarah.jenice, on 16 May 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

Anyone think I am close with anything? I am sometimes disappointed in the changes, but for the most part, I am just excited to see where they are taking the story.

i agree with this, i think that everything but the chain is redeemable at this point.  maybe they will find a way, but I'm always a bit defensive immediately after I see the less understandable deviations

[summer_stark]

sarah.jenice, on 16 May 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

The Weasel soup is definitely something that I've been wondering about, and the only thing I can come up with is that, with another detour from the books, in the next episode Arya asks Jaquen to kill Tywin for her last wish, and for some reason that I am not sure of (he misses him and has to kill someone in Harrenhal maybe) Jaquen can't do it.

This has been bothering me too -- jaqen can't refuse on the grounds that tywin is leaving and it has to be someone at harrenhal -- he already said to her that she can choose anyone -- including joffrey -- so that can't be the reason.  the rest of the reasons seem silly -- she wants to see it happen, or he thinks it will take too long (which considering what we've seen him do on the show, doesn't make a lot of sense) so she decides to save it or at the last minute the northerners are caught and she tells him she wants something else from him instead...dunno...but it was an inevitable problem with her as tywin's cupbearer, especially since she is giving him death stares -- which is just silly considering she has jaqen.  doesn't make a lot of sense in the story.  wouldve been better imo to have her like tywin the way he likes her and only hear of bad shit he does after he leaves...

[boojam]

summer_stark, on 16 May 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

This has been bothering me too -- jaqen can't refuse on the grounds that tywin is leaving and it has to be someone at harrenhal -- he already said to her that she can choose anyone -- including joffrey -- so that can't be the reason.  the rest of the reasons seem silly -- she wants to see it happen, or he thinks it will take too long (which considering what we've seen him do on the show, doesn't make a lot of sense) so she decides to save it or at the last minute the northerners are caught and she tells him she wants something else from him instead...dunno...but it was an inevitable problem with her as tywin's cupbearer, especially since she is giving him death stares -- which is just silly considering she has jaqen.  doesn't make a lot of sense in the story.  wouldve been better imo to have her like tywin the way he likes her and only hear of bad shit he does after he leaves...

As a man has said, a man cannot refuse.
So I don't see how it can be Tywin, we have to have Tywin around for a certain incident with Tryion which just too special for D&d to have not noticed.
However, and I am not sure Arya gives this as a reason in the novel, if she could some how be a factor in his tactics, like loosing Harrenhal, that might hurt him more than killing him!
So it could , I hope it is, the Weasel Soup scenario, except I am pretty sure D&D will dispose of the whole Roose thing will be disposed of , not enough time left... and she will proceed to the escape with Gendry and Hot Pie.
And yeah keeping the killing of the guard is important.

[atia-]

Anything they do now though is unrealistic.  They screwed themselves with this Grandpa Tywin and Arya storyline.  If he releases a high-born captive like Arya, he's an idiot.  If he lets her escape with this knowledge, he's an idiot.

Edited by hk47, 16 May 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[Jamie Lannister]

It's not that bad. As far as he knows, Arya is in King's Landing, no?

In addition to that, any suspicions of her being anyone of use at this point will be rendered moot when he learns Stannis is invading, and rushes off in all haste to stop him. Arya will probably escape after.

[Artemis]

sarah.jenice, on 16 May 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

The Weasel soup is definitely something that I've been wondering about, and the only thing I can come up with is that, with another detour from the books, in the next episode Arya asks Jaquen to kill Tywin for her last wish, and for some reason that I am not sure of (he misses him and has to kill someone in Harrenhal maybe) Jaquen can't do it.

See, for me at least, this would be rather unfortunate. One of my favorite book moments was when Arya whispers her third name Jaqen H'ghar.  It was just such a badass moment in the book and one that took me completely by surprise. It also showed me that Arya isn't as rash and impulsive as she is sometimes made out to be...it showed me that she's quite smart if she chose to be and actually THINKS before speaking the last name after she learns her lesson from saying "Weese" as her second.

Edited by Artemis, 16 May 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[Serr Parker]

My guess is he knows/finds out its Arya but as this happens she escapes the castle, it would be insulting to Tywin's character if he didn't realise it's her

[boojam]

Jamie Lannister, on 16 May 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

It's not that bad. As far as he knows, Arya is in King's Landing, no?

In addition to that, any suspicions of her being anyone of use at this point will be rendered moot when he learns Stannis is invading, and rushes off in all haste to stop him. Arya will probably escape after.

I notice in the preview for E8 there is no scene of Twyin with Arya (of course they make these damn previews so short it's hard to tell anything)... also he is leaving with that awful Mountain replacement, I thought that guy was supposed to be out bugging farmers? Anyway Twyin looks in a haste. So lord know where this goes.