[Book Spoilers] Daenerys and Jon Snow- Development

[Linus Chan]

Daenerys and Jon on the show seem to show such little power, or even straight up intellect that their status as the centers of the Song of Ice and Fire becomes difficult to muster.

I don't think it is their fault, but the writers of the show are not doing them any favors.

Daenerys, the Quarth coup and the theft of her dragons all cast her in a much more powerless and naive light. In the books she is not such a pawn and led so quickly by Xaro.

And Jon.. well Jon comes off as such a child. Perhaps i don't remember it correctly, but why in the world would Ygritte even fall for him at all at this point? He hasn't bested her in combat and essentially just blushes at her talk of sex.

I can see how Jon can be redeemed (with the half-hand duel), but right now Daenerys is almost unwatchable. (and i don't blame the actress).

[Mulled Wino]

Daenerys and Jon on the show seem to show such little power, or even straight up intellect that their status as the centers of the Song of Ice and Fire becomes difficult to muster.

I don't think it is their fault, but the writers of the show are not doing them any favors.

Daenerys, the Quarth coup and the theft of her dragons all cast her in a much more powerless and naive light. In the books she is not such a pawn and led so quickly by Xaro.

And Jon.. well Jon comes off as such a child. Perhaps i don't remember it correctly, but why in the world would Ygritte even fall for him at all at this point? He hasn't bested her in combat and essentially just blushes at her talk of sex.

I can see how Jon can be redeemed (with the half-hand duel), but right now Daenerys is almost unwatchable. (and i don't blame the actress).

agree with jon and dany is terrible on both. they are murking jon and making him look like a clown. i don't see why they couldn't have had the halfhard at least request jon.

dany stumbles her way all over essos in the books, tv show seems right in line.

[ipsuel]

agree with jon and dany is terrible on both. they are murking jon and making him look like a clown. i don't see why they couldn't have had the halfhard at least request jon.

dany stumbles her way all over essos in the books, tv show seems right in line.

I think Qhorin WILL have jon kill him in order to join the wildlings... it'll happen in Ep. 10.

Granted, the storyline is set up a bit differently--but the outcomes (I think?) will be the same--> Jon killing Qhorin to gain the Wildling's trust/acceptance.

[RL Terrill]

I think that the writers want them to appear powerless, they are both so very young and faced with situations that their lives up to that point have left them unprepared for. Learning how to over come that feeling of powerlessness is an act of maturity. I believe that the writers intent is to be enable the view the ability to witness their gaining in maturity and emotional stability.

Jon's wandering around lost in the north, with a prisoner who is testing him in every way possible, is suppose to make him appear lost and confused to us, and he is! Lost, and alone for the first time in his life, faced with his first full assault of a woman's sexuality has to be a source of great confusion, fear and desire. What would you or I do in the face of such a powerful weapon, in those circumstances? He cannot hide the truth from Ygritte and she is intelligent enough to use the only thing at her disposal in order to keep him off guard and vulnerable. Jon Snow is a boy trying to grow into the choice he has made. Why should he not make mistakes, many of them, both big and small? He has a long way to go in this story and where would the interest be if he was perfect and acted the part of a mature beyond his years kind of hero. I think Jon Snow is an interesting character and watching him negotiate his path in life is a great story.

Martin's characters in the book series are all very flawed and very human, that being real strength of the story, IMO. As a writer he has an advantage in storytelling in that the reader adds their own imagination to the words creating a second level of perception denied to a watcher of film. If the writers of the HBO series put all those stark flaws and humanness on the screen for the world to see it is in order to show us who the character is, but because the viewer only has eyes with which to visualize the story and our imaginations are left out of our understanding of the story, the characters may appear less than they truly are.

One other thing, as viewers of episodic TV we have been trained to impatience and heavy handedness, making us desire characters with little dimension. Martin's characters are far from that and the writers of the series are doing an admirable job in putting a complicated and detailed story on film.

[dreamcatcher]

Agree.

I hope that it's because they want to show their progression through the books.

However, I think that Dany is more faithful to the books.

[David Selig]

They aren't the centers of ASOIF anyway, in fact their arcs are clearly the weakest among the major ones in the books.

[m_k]

I think Qhorin WILL have jon kill him in order to join the wildlings... it'll happen in Ep. 10. Granted, the storyline is set up a bit differently--but the outcomes (I think?) will be the same--> Jon killing Qhorin to gain the Wildling's trust/acceptance.

I won't be happy if they neglect the character qhorin. Because he is the best ranger of night watch, and a lot of jon's future decision were effected by qhorin's advice. It will be insult to him if the show shows that the wildling capture qhorin and through jon and qhorin in a pit to fight to death. In the book qhorin was a perfect leader. He had definite plane of action and had clear reason why he left jon to kill the girl. But in the show qhorin just look like dumb, to let jon alone with the wildling girl. I hope show will do justice to this character.

[SerMixalot]

I think that the writers want them to appear powerless, they are both so very young and faced with situations that their lives up to that point have left them unprepared for. Learning how to over come that feeling of powerlessness is an act of maturity. I believe that the writers intent is to be enable the view the ability to witness their gaining in maturity and emotional stability. Jon's wandering around lost in the north, with a prisoner who is testing him in every way possible, is suppose to make him appear lost and confused to us, and he is! Lost, and alone for the first time in his life, faced with his first full assault of a woman's sexuality has to be a source of great confusion, fear and desire. What would you or I do in the face of such a powerful weapon, in those circumstances? He cannot hide the truth from Ygritte and she is intelligent enough to use the only thing at her disposal in order to keep him off guard and vulnerable. Jon Snow is a boy trying to grow into the choice he has made. Why should he not make mistakes, many of them, both big and small? He has a long way to go in this story and where would the interest be if he was perfect and acted the part of a mature beyond his years kind of hero. I think Jon Snow is an interesting character and watching him negotiate his path in life is a great story. Martin's characters in the book series are all very flawed and very human, that being real strength of the story, IMO. As a writer he has an advantage in storytelling in that the reader adds their own imagination to the words creating a second level of perception denied to a watcher of film. If the writers of the HBO series put all those stark flaws and humanness on the screen for the world to see it is in order to show us who the character is, but because the viewer only has eyes with which to visualize the story and our imaginations are left out of our understanding of the story, the characters may appear less than they truly are. One other thing, as viewers of episodic TV we have been trained to impatience and heavy handedness, making us desire characters with little dimension. Martin's characters are far from that and the writers of the series are doing an admirable job in putting a complicated and detailed story on film.

I hear what you are saying and there is a lot of merit to it. My problem is that Jon is not quite that weak in the books. he is coming across as a child, not a young man. In the book, jon has started his growth as evident by his changing to help his fellow trainees instead of looking down on them, his acceptance as Mormonts steward. TV Jon is constantly being berated by Mormont, has a conflict with Craster, which shows not just immaturity but a poor sense of judgement. TV jon would have been redeemed if he said SOMETHING to Y instead of taking her abuse. I think him telling her he didnt want to father a bastard would have gone a long way to explaining his discomfort, his mixed feelings, shown him with some strength and made him less of a weakling, cause clearly that was an important factor to him at this point in his life.

[gogorath]

Someone mentioned it above, but I think one of the non-book threads I've read said it best. Some of the people were wondering when certain things were going to happen -- like the Dragons growing up, etc., and one poster said though they'd never read the books, they knew there were five and probably going to be seven or eight -- and so maybe the expectations of pace that are inherent in a show without a roadmap, without a real danger of cancellation now... those aren't accurate.

It was an astute comment.

[Tourniquet]

Ygritte doesn't desire Jon Snow, she wants to sleep with him so she can escape...

[notakneeler]

Dany does NOT stumble her way all over Essos in the book. She CONQUERS her way all over Essos.

Her low point is in the Red Waste and she rises from there in the book by virtue of her own character and smarts with an assist from Jorah who helps her NOT become a pawn of Illyrio.

The TV Qarth storyline is not just about making things more dynamic, something that I can appreciate as a show watcher, but also a statement of the writers' disliike of Dany as written.

[Ruka]

Ygritte doesn't desire Jon Snow, she wants to sleep with him so she can escape...

Do you mean in the show? Because it is stated by tormund that Jon is just an oblivious diptsht if he can't see that Ygritte wants to bed him. I think in the show she also desires him for a couple reasons, bedding him breaks his oath, and brings him closer to joining the freefolk. I am not so sure she wants to "escape" him as much as she wants to turn him.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

Its quite shocking how horrible Daenerys is being portrayed this season and how low shes fallen from the first season....

Just a whining brat

[Ser Giant]

She's a whining brat throughout the books as well, she is being portayed perfectly in the show.

[Serr Parker]

I can see Jon being a prisoner with Halfhand and that's when the whole "you'll have to prove yourself" Conversation will go, I can see it being an execution instead of a fight though, agreed on most of the other stuff, getting his sword took off him at Craster's keep and generally getting told how terrible a steward he is makes him look like a child.

Danny I'm quite happy with, she's just a beggar queen whos finally got put in her place, hopefully next season is when she starts to mature with conquering and such

[TeamDanyArya]

I think that the writers want them to appear powerless, they are both so very young and faced with situations that their lives up to that point have left them unprepared for. Learning how to over come that feeling of powerlessness is an act of maturity. I believe that the writers intent is to be enable the view the ability to witness their gaining in maturity and emotional stability. Jon's wandering around lost in the north, with a prisoner who is testing him in every way possible, is suppose to make him appear lost and confused to us, and he is! Lost, and alone for the first time in his life, faced with his first full assault of a woman's sexuality has to be a source of great confusion, fear and desire. What would you or I do in the face of such a powerful weapon, in those circumstances? He cannot hide the truth from Ygritte and she is intelligent enough to use the only thing at her disposal in order to keep him off guard and vulnerable. Jon Snow is a boy trying to grow into the choice he has made. Why should he not make mistakes, many of them, both big and small? He has a long way to go in this story and where would the interest be if he was perfect and acted the part of a mature beyond his years kind of hero. I think Jon Snow is an interesting character and watching him negotiate his path in life is a great story. Martin's characters in the book series are all very flawed and very human, that being real strength of the story, IMO. As a writer he has an advantage in storytelling in that the reader adds their own imagination to the words creating a second level of perception denied to a watcher of film. If the writers of the HBO series put all those stark flaws and humanness on the screen for the world to see it is in order to show us who the character is, but because the viewer only has eyes with which to visualize the story and our imaginations are left out of our understanding of the story, the characters may appear less than they truly are. One other thing, as viewers of episodic TV we have been trained to impatience and heavy handedness, making us desire characters with little dimension. Martin's characters are far from that and the writers of the series are doing an admirable job in putting a complicated and detailed story on film.

Well said! This has been something that's been driving me batty this season as I see thread after thread of book-readers bitching about various characters. When you've read all the books up to this point, you know the whole story whereas the show hasn't gotten there yet. I sometimes think it comes down to selective memory and hindsight is 20/20. You have to show characters at their low points before you can get to the high points. This applies to all the major characters in the series. Some peak early and fall from grace to hopefully rise up from the ashes. Others start low and slowly rise up while others skyrocket.

That is one of the biggest things that I appreciate about the books and the show; everyone is a flawed human and we don't evolve over night. For some, it is a long, slow and painful process of failing before truly getting it. Unfortunately, I think our culture doesn't believe in patience and flawed beings because we are way too quick to point out every flaw and defect in everything as if we could possibly do any better.

[Eddard Sand]

:agree: Especially in Dany's case she grew a whole lot from her experience with Mirri Maz Durr but is still quite a child. She is easily tricked again into entering the House of the Undying where she is nearly killed. Once she emerges however she gets on a hot streak and becomes the conqueror I so loved to read about. The second coming of Aegon the Conqueror. She hits a crescendo after sacking Meeren and is well on another downward swing as she learns that she can't save everyone, and can't have everyone lover her. Everyone has their ups and downs and right now shes down.