56 replies to this topic

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Why is Ser Jorah called this? Are the Mormonts not descended from the First Men? I checked the wiki and it said that the Mormonts were given Bear Island by a Stark king in the north...
My apologies if this has been discussed before.

Edited by Stannis Eats No Peaches, 16 May 2012 - 05:54 AM.

[David Selig]

It's the Dothraki who call him this. For the Dothraki all Westerosi are Andals, they call Westeros "The Land of the Andals" (I can't remember how it was in Dothraki).

[Lummel]

He was knighted for bravery by King Bob during the greyjoy rebellion iirc, he is still a mormont and of first man stock though.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

But as Maester Luwin said only men who worship the Seven become knights because of the standing vigil thing. As a descendent of the First Men surely he would worship the Old Gods.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

During the Crusades the Arabs called everyone from Europe, Franks. It didn't matter if they weren't French. I'd imagine the Dothraki calling him Jorah the Andal is the same.

[David Selig]

Stannis Eats No Peaches, on 16 May 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

But as Maester Luwin said only men who worship the Seven become knights because of the standing vigil thing. As a descendent of the First Men surely he would worship the Old Gods.

Bran Stark was planning to become a knight before he was crippled. Sansa Stark was primarily worshipping the Seven at the start of the series. And Jorah is hardly the only Northerner who is a knight - there were 300-400 of those when Robb was gathering his forces at Winterfell even before Manderly's men joined them.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

That is true but I think the Seven are worshipped by some of the Stark children (particularly Sansa) because of Cat. Rodrik Cassel was a knight now that I think about it. I just wondered what would make them turn from the gods of their ancestors.

[Lummel]

For the Stark children it is not an either/or it is a both/and.  They are not turning from the gods of their ancestors, they are adding another faith to their worship and don't see them as being mutually exclusive.

Cassel may have been knighted but still believe in the old gods, or maybe he comes from the Whitehaven area.

[Lord Damian]

Arch-MaesterPhilip, on 16 May 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:

During the Crusades the Arabs called everyone from Europe, Franks. It didn't matter if they weren't French. I'd imagine the Dothraki calling him Jorah the Andal is the same.

Franks and Normands, yes, you are right

[rmanoj]

Jorah probably just wasn't very religious in the first place. Robert offered to knight him and he didn't really mind having to swear some vows to the Seven.

[Sworn Shield]

Some Northern's do accept knighthoods, like Ser Roderick. In Davos' chapters in White Harbour the guy in charge of the Wolf's Den is a knight even though he clearly states he follows the Old Gods. I've wondered about the Andal part as well, like others have said people in Essos probably won't know the difference between an Andal and the Frist Men. Final thing Ser Jorah Mormont The Andal sounds cooler than, Ser Jorah Mormont a Frist Man.

[The_Gallows_Knight]

While knighthood is commonly associated with The Seven, one does not necessarily have to be anointed with oils by a septon and stand vigil to gain knighthood. As in Jorah's case when he got it on the battlefield after the siege of Pyke.

[LuisDantas]

Stannis Eats No Peaches, on 16 May 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

That is true but I think the Seven are worshipped by some of the Stark children (particularly Sansa) because of Cat. Rodrik Cassel was a knight now that I think about it. I just wondered what would make them turn from the gods of their ancestors.

I doubt they did.

In these days of widespread Abrahamism people tend to misjudge other faiths and think that people "believe" in a God or pantheon and sort-of-automatically "disbelieve" the others.  In a wider sense, that is an odd form of religious practice.

We have consistently seem that people in Westeros and Essos don't usually believe in choosing One True God and declaring the others false.  R'hllor is problematic among other reasons because his cult does have that specific anomaly.

Other than followers of R'hllor or (in the real world) of the Abrahamic Faiths - Judaism, Christianism, Islam and some offshots such as the Bahai Faith - most people realize that belief is a very personal matter and there is no particular reason to "believe" in any deities.  Their role is to inspire, not to be believed in.

[Blisscraft]

I wondered about this as well.  I looked and indeed, it was only the Dothraki who refered to Jorah as "the Andal."

As far as the North and the blood of the First Men,  it seems to be an accommodation to constantly swear to something by "the old gods and the new."  No one forsakes one's god that way.

[TheSpottedCat]

LuisDantas, on 16 May 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

I doubt they did.

In these days of widespread Abrahamism people tend to misjudge other faiths and think that people "believe" in a God or pantheon and sort-of-automatically "disbelieve" the others.  In a wider sense, that is an odd form of religious practice.

We have consistently seem that people in Westeros and Essos don't usually believe in choosing One True God and declaring the others false.  R'hllor is problematic among other reasons because his cult does have that specific anomaly.

Other than followers of R'hllor or (in the real world) of the Abrahamic Faiths - Judaism, Christianism, Islam and some offshots such as the Bahai Faith - most people realize that belief is a very personal matter and there is no particular reason to "believe" in any deities.  Their role is to inspire, not to be believed in.

The followers of R'hllor don't disbelieve that the other gods exist, but they believe the other gods to be demons. Moqorro tells Victarion "your Drowned God is a demon" and Melisandre and the new converts to R'hllor call the Seven and the Old Gods demons.

Edited by TheSpottedCat, 16 May 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[LuisDantas]

That is sort of my point, you know...  there is no shortage of statements from the Red Priests that there is only one true god.

Edited by LuisDantas, 16 May 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[Sworn Shield]

Some how I think Jorah is going to have excel himself even further than earning a knighthood to survive the opening of Winds of Winter. Him, Daario, Victarion and Barristan the Badass all in close proximity and the S**t is about to hit the fan in Meereen, I Hope he can survive he is one of my fav characters.

[tze]

We know Maege Mormont follows the Old Gods, and it's hinted that her and Jeor's father did as well, but I don't think it's ever been confirmed that either Jeor or Jorah actually do keep the Old Gods. There are actually several hints that Jeor Mormont did not keep the Old Gods, which would also hint that he did not raise his son Jorah to keep the Old Gods:

Quote

"I expect you will want to say your words before a heart tree, as your uncle did," Mormont said.

Not "as your uncle and I did." Mormont never indicates that he himself spoke his vows before a heart tree like Benjen Stark, which is a weird omission in this context. Moreover, later in that same scene, Jeor Mormont tells Jon

Quote

"Castle Black has no need of a godswood. Beyond the Wall the haunted forest stands as it stood in the Dawn Age, long before the Andals brought the Seven across the narrow sea. You will find a grove of weirwoods half a league from this spot, and mayhap your gods as well."

Your gods. Not "our gods" or "the gods". Your gods.

In the village of Whitetree, Jon mentions

Quote

"My lord father believed no man could tell a lie in front of a heart tree. The old gods know when men are lying."
"My father believed the same," said the Old Bear.

But he doesn't say that he, Jeor Mormont, believed the same.

And at Craster's Keep, Jeor tells Jon that "the wildlings keep crueler gods than you or I". Not "you and I"---"you or I".

Alone, each of these things isn't dispositive, but I think taken together, they could be strong hints that Jeor Mormont does not keep the Old Gods. And since we know Maege does, and Jeor says that his father did as well, I think it's very possible that Jeor himself converted and then raised his son in the Faith of the Seven, and that would explain why Jorah is a Ser and why neither man (as far as I can tell) ever mentions keeping the Old Gods.

[jlk7e]

Ser Helman Tallhart is another northern knight.  Also Ser Mark Ryswell, one of Ned's companions at the Tower of Joy.  It doesn't seem to be that uncommon.  Jorah may have taken up the seven for his southern wife, as well.  And, yeah, the Dothraki think everyone from Westeros is an Andal.

EDIT: Great point about Jeor Mormont not seeming to keep the Old Gods, tze.

Edited by jlk7e, 16 May 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[I'll pay the iron price]

House Mormount of Bear island - very courageous in battle (even the females) but due to Bear island having no natural resources they are not a rich house which is why Jorah tried to sell some poachers into slavery!