56 replies to this topic

[hombay]

I've always thought Mormont was an Andal family, similar to Manderly. Mormont just doesn't seem as First Men-ish as Stark, Bolton, Umber, Flint, Norrey etc.

[Winterfell is Burning]

hombay, on 18 May 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

I've always thought Mormont was an Andal family, similar to Manderly. Mormont just doesn't seem as First Men-ish as Stark, Bolton, Umber, Flint, Norrey etc.

That, and Bear Island belonged to the Ironborn (also conquered by the Andals) and was won in a wrestling match.

[Ser Lepus]

Westeros is the land where the andals went to live; the northeners speak the andal language, like all the rest of Westeros, and follow the same king than the rest of the other six andal kingdoms; that would be more than enough to label them as andals even in our own world.

Europeans used to call all the muslims moors or turks; arabs and turks often called all the europeans romans (rums) or franks/french (frany); even today most people in the world would put the irish and scottish in the anglo-saxxon box despite they seeing themselves as ethnics celts (well, at least those who care about those things at all).

[The Roaring Bear]

Cliche Guevara, on 17 May 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

i dont think this is accurate, religion was a much bigger part of the average person's daily life in medieval times. especially without solid scientific explanations for natural phenomena they coukdnt understand, religious beliefs went unquestioned and were accepted more easily.

You should read some Icelandic sagas.
Why, you ask?  They weren't written by priests, so there wasn't a bunch of forced religion on everything written.
I recall one saga where someone who was made an outlaw (outside the protection of the law) was being chased, and he tried to seek sanctuary in a church.  Several of his pursuers (Iceland was Christian at the time btw) basically got him to come out by saying "listen, we're christian, but we arent overly religious like you, so we will burn the church down to get you, so why dont you just protect the church and hand yourself over?"

The Icelandic sagas give a much more secular view of the world, and one that was probably more accurate for the everyday layperson.
Many people today have this misconstrued view of the Middle ages as a bunch of righteous idiots running around following a divinely inspired goose (yes, that did actually happen during the first crusade).

That being said, just because some people were extremely religious does not mean that all were.
The oldest record of Norwegian laws, the "GulaThing" for instance has a law saying that it is "illegal for anyone to make clearly false claims about another, such as that he is a werewolf, or that every nine days he turns into a woman and gives birth"

What does that law tell us?
1. Yes some people believe in such superstition
2. Other people recognized that it was clearly bullshit.

Doctors in the medieval era were able to perform skingrafts, including a method of grafting a nose onto someone using the skin of their arm that was used up until the 1920s.

It is also worth pointing out the whole "World is flat" thing was bullshit, the greeks figured out the size of the Earth long before columbus.  The argument wasnt that the Earth was flat when Columbus decided to sail west, it was how big it was around, and Columbus was wrong with everyone else being right!  He just got lucky that there was a giant lanmd mass in the way.

But yeah, you're wrong.

[shadow_419]

The Andals started the chivalrous/knightly culture.
Jorah is a knight.
The Dothraki think he's an Andal.

[Monk Meth-]

master at arms in winterfell was a knight..

its rarer for northerners to become knights because of the whole seven thing.. but some do it

[TheRaggedWildling]

Just because people were from long ago doesn't mean that they are stupid, it means that they were born in the 500's/1200's/2000's/X's. While people may have been religious ( and the actual extent of piety varies. The RCC was actually pretty liberal up until the Protestant Reformation, and only became all fire-and-brimstone to combat the charges of corruption leveled by the members of the Reformation.) , they weren't STUPID. Remember, its always the extremists who get in the papers. The moderates are boring and aren't all that worth being written about until they do something interesting.

[Alarum]

I think it's fairly easy to deduce that the Mormonts descend from Andalos. They were awarded Bear Island from Rodrik Stark, who had just returned from a tour in Essos with the Second Sons. Considering the Mormonts have a Valyrian blade whose possession predates the Targaryen settling of Dragonstone by 100 years, their sword must have come from Valyrian merchants on mainland Essos. It logically proceeds that House Mormont's settling of Bear Island occurred some time within these 500 years, which would be damn recent for a First Man.

We can thus conclude that Rodrik Stark met Original Mormont serving in the Second Sons, which thus follows that there was a first son of House Mormont that inherited the keep and lands in Essos. Considering the name "Mormont" likely refers to a mount, it would make sense that Jorah's ancestral home is somewhere among the hills of Andalos. So the question is: does Jorah ever reconnect with his long-lost (although not all that long in ASOIAF terms) relations? If the family has a Valyrian sword and originates from the heart of Andalos, it would fittingly be a house of formidable prestige, assuming it's still in existence. I think this would be a cool twist.

[Darth Rivers]

Stannis Eats No Peaches, on 16 May 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

But as Maester Luwin said only men who worship the Seven become knights because of the standing vigil thing. As a descendent of the First Men surely he would worship the Old Gods.

Not those who get knighted for heroic deeds. Why Andal? Well, Westerosi all speak one language, of Andal origin, and look quite similar. The Essosi don't care about their differences. The Dothraki probably don't know, either.

[Kienn]

Because "Jorah the First Man" would only make sense if he was actually named Adam.

Or it's foreshadowing for a plot point in the Winds of Winter, concerning the origins of the white walkers with respect to the Andals and First Men.

[Brienne Of Bombay]

Kienn, on 27 February 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Because "Jorah the First Man" would only make sense if he was actually named Adam.

[Ser Arc]

Ser Jorah speaks the Andal language, so the Dothraki call him "the Andal."

This is similar to how Spanish-speakers in the United States are referred to as "Hispanic" regardless of race. A Caucasian from Spain, a Mayan from Mexico and an African-American from the Dominican Republic would all be categorized as "Hispanic" in America.

[Jon Pauletto]

He's called that because Dothrakis think all men from Westeros are Andals

or it's a show error

it's the same for the kings when they said, they forget to mention the Rhoynars, they say king of Andals and the First Men

[Ivashanko]

LuisDantas, on 16 May 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Other than followers of R'hllor or (in the real world) of the Abrahamic Faiths - Judaism, Christianism, Islam and some offshots such as the Bahai Faith - most people realize that belief is a very personal matter and there is no particular reason to "believe" in any deities.  Their role is to inspire, not to be believed in.

Have you ever met a 'native' followers of Hinduism, Buddhism, etc? And by that I mean 'non-Western', as the Western conceptualizations of those religions have, in many cases, little to do with the original (Western Buddhism in particular may as well be a different religion compared to Mahayana or Theravada Buddhism, and nearly all scholars who study the religion make that distinction). Many Buddhists, Jains, and Hindus are fervent in their belief system, and many believe in a God or Gods, depending on what the case may be.

You are right when you say that this does not mean they reject other potential Gods, however.

LuisDantas, on 17 May 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

Is that so?  I can't help but wonder, if not doubt it outright.

Medieval societies were very down-to-earth.  Atheism would a very natural occurrence, and by no means an unusual one.  As it is today, really.

It seems to me that this God-obsession of today is something of a modern development.  Actual medieval societies would probably be more like Westeros and care more about practical things, using the Faiths and Gods as the inspirational matters that they were always meant to be instead of the crucial matters of belief that so many people regrettably make out of it these days.

Before the advent of nationalism, religion was used as a stand in for things like nationalism, racial and ethnic identity. A famous example is when a French scholar asked a Ukrainian in the 19th century what country he was from, the Ukrainian replied 'Orthodox'. It was why the Pope moved systematically to ban slavery of Christians and those that might potentially become Christians- pagan Native Americans, mostly, but initially African converts as well- until after the Reformation, when he lost all such degree of power. In other words, it was not just an important aspect of an individual, it was one of the most defining.

LuisDantas, on 18 May 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

No doubt.  But the matter was if atheism would be unusual in Westeros or in medieval history.

My answer was that atheism is never unusual, and it would be even less so in a more down-to-earth society, where people are closer to their actual survival means.  

The idea of basically rejecting this world in order to make a stand for belief in some Higher Plan is a weirdness that was rarely as widespread as in recent centuries, where the multiplication of societal roles increased the opportunities for such disconnect.  In Westeros, as in the real-world medieval times, ultimately one had to sew, serve or reave and face the consequences.   One's metaphysical beliefs - or lack of same - had very little practical consequences beyond the inspiration they might bring.  Which is arguably how it should be.

On the contrary, the systems of monks and the like rejecting the world goes back to at least the 3rd Century AD, and has inspired countless individuals over the centuries. Also, see the many Wars of Reformation- people were deeply moved by matters of the faith, partly because they viewed it in a similar vein to how many view patriotism and nationalism today. Just as they would have mocked us for our many political and ideological conflicts, we mock them for their religious ones.

LuisDantas, on 18 May 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

Not so much books as study of non-Abrahamic religions.  Confucionism doesn't even have a concept of God, and most other religions have a fairly optional one, if that much.

If I may, I suggest http://www.religiousforums.org

Chinese Folk Religion has a tremendous amount of Gods, and Confucianism was rarely practiced without a belief in Folk Gods (Taoism is the same- granted, one could argue there status of actually being 'religions', but oh well). There are very few religions without a concrete belief in some sort of higher power.

[Ivashanko]

The Roaring Bear, on 08 June 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

You should read some Icelandic sagas.
Why, you ask?  They weren't written by priests, so there wasn't a bunch of forced religion on everything written.
I recall one saga where someone who was made an outlaw (outside the protection of the law) was being chased, and he tried to seek sanctuary in a church.  Several of his pursuers (Iceland was Christian at the time btw) basically got him to come out by saying "listen, we're christian, but we arent overly religious like you, so we will burn the church down to get you, so why dont you just protect the church and hand yourself over?"

Iceland (and the rest of the Norselands) were probably exceptions to the rule of religiosity, all things considered. That being said, there is a terrible desire to connect intense religious feelings with stupidity, particularly when it comes to people in the Medieval Ages (but it continues to this day). This is both unintelligent and unsubstantiated (the connection between atheism and intelligence has been reproduced when it comes to people who change religious belief and intelligence. In other words, the ability to question one's beliefs are more important than the beliefs themselves).

[Naathi Prince]

The Dothraki refer to Westero as the land of the Andals. It is in the first Daenerys chapter.

[Kienn]

It's not just Dothraki who refer to Jorah as an Andal...

Quote

Volantis closed its gates at dark, and the guardsmen on its northern gate were grumbling impatiently at the stragglers. They joined the queue behind a wagon laden with limes and oranges. The guards motioned the wagon through with their torches but took a harder look at the big Andal on his warhorse, with his longsword and his mail. A captain was summoned. Whilst he and the knight exchanged some words in Volantene, one of the guardsmen pulled off his clawed gauntlet and gave Tyrion’s head a rub. “I’m full of good fortune,” the dwarf told him. “Cut me loose, friend, and I’ll see you’re well rewarded.”

That's from Tyrion's chapter. You could see it as Tyrion himself identifying Jorah as an Andal, or Tyrion understanding that the Volantene guard would identify Jorah as an Andal.

Edited by Kienn, 27 February 2013 - 06:42 PM.