67 replies to this topic

[Vandalism]

Robb Stark and Theon were definitely close, despite the fact that Theon was his father's hostage and a weapon to be used against Balon Greyjoy if he 'misbehaved'. The other Stark children mistrusted Theon, as did Catelyn, but Robb seemed to admire Theon and the two were pretty frank with each other.

Their relationship was interesting, what with their argument after Theon saved Bran. And let's not forget Theon's guilt over the course of the series, and how Robb featured in his thoughts of remorse.

I am of the view that not developing this relationship (as in, not giving us more conversations or page time) was one of the flaws in the series. I really think George Martin shuts the doors to way too many opportunities at good, gripping reading. This is one of them.

Now, I'm just saying, who would not want to read a scene where Robb asked Theon, "Why, Theon? Why did you do it?"

[Alric Stark]

I don't think it is a mistake, I think it is part of the realism. There are always conversation we don't get to have situations where we don't get closure in life. What you mention Robb and Theon's relationship is precisely what makes his betrayal so brutal. It also gives you a glimpse into how weak Theon is. He gets bullied by his Father and Sister into betraying the only family he has ever really known.

[theguyfromtheVale]

Also, we simply have no insight in their personal relationship as long as they are close; Theon becomes a POV character only after he's been sent to treat with his father, and we have no chance to see their friendship up close before, with some notable exceptions (mainly Theon killing the Wildling raider from Bran's perspective, and Theon swearing fealty from Catelyn's)

[Vandalism]

The point is we could have gotten a bit more of it without Martin having to tone down the gritty reality of his series.

Theon could have been taken by Ramsay to the Red Wedding, where Robb was killed before he planned to execute Theon, and then Ramsay could have taken Theon to the Dreadfort for torture.

Nothing unrealistic there. Would just provide some more epic character development.

[jlk7e]

It is too bad we don't get more.  This is one of those parts of the story where it's nice to get some additional scenes in the TV series.

[houseHB]

Theon can still have the conversation with Jon (if alive)

[Lady Hodor]

I'd have to agree with Alric Stark, to have Theon move all across Westeros just to speak with Robb and for no other purpose would prove moot and unrealistic.

[Vandalism]

Moving all the way to the other end of Westeros is unrealistic? Why, can't he be chained up and put in a wagon? Bad, weak point bro.

Like I said earlier:
"Theon could have been taken by Ramsay to the Red Wedding, where Robb was killed before he planned to execute Theon, and then Ramsay could have taken Theon to the Dreadfort for torture."

That is a perfectly realistic situation under the circumstances and does not disturb the political scenario in any way.

[BabyMeraxes]

The nature of limited third-person POVs means that a lot of shit is going to happen off-screen. I like that we get memory and emotion in fleeting glimpses, that's usually how it works, and I think that it means more when Theon remembers his relationship with Robb, knowing there's nothing he can do because his best friend and biggest betrayal is gone forever.

[Vandalism]

Keeping in mind, my alternate scenario would have changed nothing except for giving us one last Robb/Theon scene.

[Alric Stark]

By realism I meant more that life always has moments we don't get. More for Theon. He now has to live never explaining to Robb why he did what he did. That he didn't kill Bran and Rickon. The only thing I will agree with is that they could have showed the choice as more of a struggle for Theon. One of the few changes from the books to the TV series that I really enjoyed was the scene with Theon buring the letter he had written to Robb to show he did really struggle with the decision.

[BabyMeraxes]

Alric Stark, on 16 May 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

By realism I meant more that life always has moments we don't get. More for Theon. He now has to live never explaining to Robb why he did what he did. That he didn't kill Bran and Rickon. The only thing I will agree with is that they could have showed the choice as more of a struggle for Theon. One of the few changes from the books to the TV series that I really enjoyed was the scene with Theon buring the letter he had written to Robb to show he did really struggle with the decision.

Agreed. This is the (arguably) the most deserved punishment Theon recieves for betraying Robb.

[Turkey Jack]

Vandalism, on 16 May 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Moving all the way to the other end of Westeros is unrealistic? Why, can't he be chained up and put in a wagon? Bad, weak point bro.

Like I said earlier:
"Theon could have been taken by Ramsay to the Red Wedding, where Robb was killed before he planned to execute Theon, and then Ramsay could have taken Theon to the Dreadfort for torture."

That is a perfectly realistic situation under the circumstances and does not disturb the political scenario in any way.

Getting through Moat Cailin might have been a problem, Ramsey giving up his Reek unrealistic, Robb not executing Ramsey unlikely, Theon confessing to Robb that the Starks are alive very likely.

I imagine your OP to be very soap opera, you are my best friend and you look after my brothers so well, you would never do anything to hurt me, my home is your home etc.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Vandalism, on 16 May 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Like I said earlier:
"Theon could have been taken by Ramsay to the Red Wedding, where Robb was killed before he planned to execute Theon, and then Ramsay could have taken Theon to the Dreadfort for torture."

That is a perfectly realistic situation under the circumstances and does not disturb the political scenario in any way.

Victarion still held Moat Cailin, so Ramsay could not have taken Theon south by land.  That being said, up to, "Jaime Lannister's regards," we (the readers) are supposed not to expect Roose's betrayal (somewhat, at least).  That may not have been the case if we had already seen that he was colluding with Ramsay, who had slaughtered Ser Rodrik and all his men and then put Winterfell to the torch.

And if Martin had revealed, in ASoS, that Theon was alive and flaying (as it were), there would be no suspense whatsoever as to who "Reek" was in ADwD.  Yes, one ought to be able to conclude that it is Theon before his first chapter ends, but that is, nevertheless, different than knowing already.

[kwvapor]

We can't have it all.  Being greedy (story-wise) leads to plots such as the dead rising up take reven....wait this sounds familiar.

[David Selig]

Tumnas the Torpid, on 16 May 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

And if Martin had revealed, in ASoS, that Theon was alive and flaying (as it were), there would be no suspense whatsoever as to who "Reek" was in ADwD.  Yes, one ought to be able to conclude that it is Theon before his first chapter ends, but that is, nevertheless, different than knowing already.

It was revealed anyway when Roose told Robb and Cat at the RW that Theon was alive and a prisoner at Dreadfort. Ramsay even sent the flayed skin of Theon's little finger in his letter.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Other than your "take Theon to the Red Wedding" idea, I agree that more attention should have been put on their relationship. Theon should have been more conflicted after he realized Balon's plan

[Tumnas the Torpid]

David Selig, on 16 May 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

It was revealed anyway when Roose told Robb and Cat at the RW that Theon was alive and a prisoner at Dreadfort. Ramsay even sent the flayed skin of Theon's little finger in his letter.

"Words are wind."

[Free Northman]

The original post raises a general problem I have with this series - which is still my favourite series by the way.

I feel Martin has FAR too many emotional loose ends in his story.

Like Jon never getting to face Catelyn when his true identity becomes known, so that all the years of unresolved antagonism can finally have an ''aha'' moment.

Like none of the Starks ever getting to kill Joffrey personally for beheading Eddard.

Like most of the people on Arya's list dying off without her involvement.

Like Roose Bolton potentially being defeated by Stannis instead of by one of Robb's brothers.

I can go on and on.

Basically, the lack of cathartic moments is what I dislike in this series.

Robb facing up to Theon would have been one such example.

[kwvapor]

Robb should have written Theon a letter and sent it to him before he died.

Then the readers can have an answer but Robb can still die at the RW.

Case closed lol.