385 replies to this topic

[ZackerySnow]

Who is the rightful king of westeros, there is actually 3 correct answers and they are : 1.Bran stark. reasoning: because the starks were the kings in the north before they bent the knee to the targaryeans  2.Daeanarys targaryeans. reasoning:The targaryeans won the realm by right of conquest which makes her the heir to westeros and later in Dance of Dragons you find out some more info that kinda helps her along. 3. Stannis Barartheon. reasoning: when  Robert rebelled he became king by a technical right of conquest. Here is a king by default seeing as the lannisters are children of incest that makes them bastards and a bastard can not seat the throne and Stannis is the oldest bartheon left leaving him the king .

[JKeats]

Stannis Baratheon.

And that's the end of the thread.  Move along folks, nothing more to see here.

[Toccs]

Until such time as the twincest becomes accepted as fact Tommen Baratheon is the rightful king of Westeros as the only surviving son of Robert.  We however know about the twincest so that leaves Stannis as the true rightful king of the Seven Kingdoms.

The Targaryen's no longer have any claim to the Iron Throne, but even if they did, Dany would not be the rightful ruler.  If Aegon is real then he would be first line as the oldest son of Rhaegar, but since Aegon is likely a fake that leaves Jon Snow as the first in line if the Targ's had a claim which they do not.

I don't know why you would include Bran in your list, he may have a case for heir to Robb's independent North depending on Robb's will.  But then there's the whole issue of Robb's independent North not actually existing anymore, the North has already been brought back into the fold of the Seven Kingdoms under the lordship of the Boltons.

[Ramsay Gimp]

HODOR!!

[Pellaeon]

Robert ascribe his claim to his Targaryen blood, like Stannis,Brans claim cease with a Targaryen on the throne, because of the rule the female Targaryens can't inherit the throne Stannis is King by law, he is the last male descendant of Aegon the conquerer, if YG is fake. But this don't matter because if you are able to win the throne because you are stronger then the other it doesn't matter who is king by law

Edited by Pellaeon, 17 May 2012 - 03:34 AM.

[mor2]

Whoever manage to kill all the other claimants....

[Arthanis]

We have at least three different lines of sucession:

By Dragon blood:
1. Aegon (if is real son of Rhaegar)
2. Jon (if is son of Rhaegar and was somehow legitimized, and his wovs to NW are cancelled)
3. Daenerys

By Robert's conquest
1. Stannis
2. Stannis's Doughter

By Dornish law concidering Tommen as rightfull king:
1. Tommen
2. Myrcella

All three lines are politically abused in books.

Edited by Arthanis, 17 May 2012 - 03:34 AM.

[Kittyhat]

JKeats, on 17 May 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:

Stannis Baratheon.

And that's the end of the thread.  Move along folks, nothing more to see here.

Either conquest is a valid method of succession, and any claimant who prevails is the "rightful" ruler, or conquest is not a valid method of succession, and Stannis is a usurper because he owes his claim to conquest via Robert.  No matter which of the above is true, Stannis's claim that he's the one rightful claimant and that's the end of it cannot logically be true.

So that's not the end of the thread, and folks need not move along.

Edited by Kittyhat, 17 May 2012 - 03:41 AM.

[Toccs]

Robert's conquest alone didn't give him his claim.  The Baratheon claim is derived from the fact that all seven kingdoms accepted it and acknowledged Robert as King.
Conquest is only a valid claim if you can get everyone to recognize it's legitimacy, otherwise you're just a rebel or invader who is occupying the city.

[Kittyhat]

Toccs, on 17 May 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

Robert's conquest alone didn't give him his claim. The Baratheon claim is derived from the fact that all seven kingdoms accepted it and acknowledged Robert as King. Conquest is only a valid claim if you can get everyone to recognize it's legitimacy, otherwise you're just a rebel or invader who is occupying the city.

Okay, but that means that conquest is a valid method of succession, and Stannis's claim that he's the sole rightful claimant, the end, is therefore not correct.

The sole rightful claimant is the one sitting the throne when the dust settles, and that by definition also assumes said sitting individual has gotten the rest of the realm to accept it.

I won't even go into the fact that Robert was quite far from getting everyone to accept his legitimacy in any event ...

Edited by Kittyhat, 17 May 2012 - 03:51 AM.

[FuzzyJAM]

"Rightful king" is an oxymoron.

[Arthanis]

Quote

Either conquest is a valid method of succession, and any claimant who prevails is the "rightful" ruler, or conquest is not a valid method of succession, and Stannis is a usurper because he owes his claim to conquest via Robert. No matter which of the above is true, Stannis's claim that he's the one rightful claimant and that's the end of it cannot logically be true.

So that's not the end of the thread, and folks need not move along.

Right of Conquest is legitimized line of succession only if previous rightful heirs are either dead or on knees. Aegon the Conqueror Conquered Westeros because all kings were either killed, or gave him their crowns. Robert didn't conquered Westeros (both Dany and Viserys were alive), he claimed crown because of his connection to Targaryen Blood AND defeating rightful Targ king. Stannis rights of succession are based on Roberts rights, and Robert rights are unstable (and based on pure power of his alliance). If Dany enter Westeros with huge army, Stannis basically has no rights to throne -and his actions in this situation may be surprising. Same go to Aegon, but I think Stannis will not be easy to convince that boy is real Rhaegar son.

[danm_999]

The Iron Throne is made of swords; a pretty neat little metaphor about exactly where the authority for it comes from.

From a legal standpoint, Stannis has the best claim, but Westeros doesn't operate under the rule of law.

From a historical standpoint, Daenerys has the best claim.

From a military standpoint, Tommen has the best claim.

[Ice Turtle]

mor2, on 17 May 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

Whoever manage to kill all the other claimants....

Or whoever survives Margaery.

Edited by Ice Turtle, 08 June 2012 - 07:32 AM.

[FuzzyJAM]

Ice Turtle, on 17 May 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

Or whoever survives Margery.

"Whoever is husband to Margaery" is as good a definition of "rightful king" as any I can think of.

[Toccs]

Kittyhat, on 17 May 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

Okay, but that means that conquest is a valid method of succession, and Stannis's claim that he's the sole rightful claimant, the end, is therefore not correct.

What?  My point was that conquest on it's own is not does not give someone a valid claim.

Kittyhat, on 17 May 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

The sole rightful claimant is the one sitting the throne when the dust settles, and that by definition also assumes said sitting individual has gotten the rest of the realm to accept it.

I agree, if there is an Iron Throne left at the end of the series, then the king will be whoever was left standing as long as all of the Realm acknowledges him.  But that person is not the rightful claimant until said acknowledgement is given.

Kittyhat, on 17 May 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

I won't even go into the fact that Robert was quite far from getting everyone to accept his legitimacy in any event ...

The entire Realm had officially sworn fealty to Robert Baratheon as their king.  There was nobody speaking out against his claim and the Seven Kingdoms were at peace.  Baratheon rule was accepted by everyone even if it wasn't liked by everyone.

[Toccs]

danm_999, on 17 May 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

From a historical standpoint, Daenerys has the best claim.

How so?  If we entertain the idea of a Targaryen claim to the throne, then the rightful Targareyn king is Aegon if he is real.  If Aegon is a fake then it is Jon Snow.
By blood Dany has the weakest Targ claim, but that doesn't matter because by the Targ's own rules the female doesn't inherit.

Edited by Toccs, 17 May 2012 - 04:10 AM.

[rmanoj]

I'm going to say Stannis because of the following reasoning:

1. Robert's rebellion was justified. You can't really dispute this, unless you condone kings being allowed to rule as unjustly as Aerys did.
2. Therefore, the Targaryens were removed for legitimate reasons and Robert was acknowledged throughout the Seven Kingdoms as the rightful king.
3. Nobody rebelled against Robert because of unjust rule. Balon just made a power grab because he wanted the Ironborn's ancient freedom to rape and pillage.
4. Stannis is Robert's rightful heir. Nobody is rebelling against him because they see his rule as unjust (therefore it's not the same situation as overthrowing the Targaryens). The other claimants were either making naked, unjustified power grabs (Renly, Balon), or were acting under the mistaken impression that Joffrey was Robert's heir (Joff himself, and also Robb when he was proclaimed King - Cat might have told him afterwards, but it would have been politically impossible to backpedal at that point)

Edited by rmanoj, 17 May 2012 - 04:11 AM.

[FuzzyJAM]

Toccs, on 17 May 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

What? My point was that conquest on it's own is not does not give someone a valid claim. I agree, if there is an Iron Throne left at the end of the series, then the king will be whoever was left standing as long as all of the Realm acknowledges him. But that person is not the rightful claimant until said acknowledgement is given. The entire Realm had officially sworn fealty to Robert Baratheon as their king. There was nobody speaking out against his claim and the Seven Kingdoms were at peace. Baratheon rule was accepted by everyone even if it wasn't liked by everyone.

Except, y'see, the entire realm never acknowledged Robert, nor the Targs before him.  

There are millions of people in Westeros, why do seven lords get to decide who's the "rightful king"?

[danm_999]

Toccs, on 17 May 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

How so?  If we entertain the idea of a Targaryen claim to the throne, then the rightful Targareyn king is Aegon if he is real.  If Aegon is a fake then it is Jon Snow.
By blood Dany has the weakest Targ claim, but that doesn't matter because by the Targ's own rules the female doesn't inherit.

Jon has no claim because of his vows. I think Aegon is a fake, but am willing to concede if he is real, his claim is better than Daenerys.