R+L=J v.25

[Ygrain]

Well, I hope it's not Edric, (Ned Dayne), because I have plans for him and Arya. :) He can be Brandons, then he'll be Aryas cousin. Little Ned also won a prize riding the rings- Brandon loved to ride the rings too as was stated where he was being fostered. Of course the age thing is shaky, unless Martin does some real juggling. "Aegon," (who is probably a dragon- just not Elia and Rhaegars), seems to act younger than his apparent age, hinting that he is not really the age he is.

If Edric was Brandon's, he'd be almost two years older than Jon (assuming that Brandon bedded Ashara at Harrenhall).

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I would like to bring over my idea that Jon's parentage may be important, because being a Stark (ability to warg), and a Targ ('blood of the dragon') may give him special abilities when it come to warging a dragon.

Does anyone else think this may be possible?

[The guy from the Vale]

That idea has been proposedd before, and has merits. Still, Jon wouldn't be unique in this, as we do know of another Targaryen warg (even greenseer): Bloodraven.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I'm saying Rhaeger was setup just like Lee harvey Oswald was. He was a patsy. Lee Harvey Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby.

I'm confused. I understand that you're referring to the Kennedy assassination, and the conspiracy theories surrounding it, but please explain further.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Okay, I get it. I had to put the pieces together...

I dont think Rhaegar is Jon's father. I think he is a patsy/fallguy setup by Aerys. We know Danny is Aerys' son. There is a strong possibility that Tyrion is Aerys' son as well. If the Dragon has hree heads, would that not make sense for Jon to be Aerys son also?

You feel that Aerys had Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna, because she was preganant with Aerys' child. And Aerys then allowed his son to take the fall for him.

Apple Martini - So Rheagar dies on the trident. Robert kills him and knocks the rubies off of his armor and into the river. Afterwards it becomes known as the Ruby Ford. The RUBY Ford. And you said, but you cant say it wasn’t Rhaegar, he was at The Tower of Joy. He was in the tower, up high. Just him. You know who else was in the ‘tower’ up high all by himself? Here is another fact. The tournamnet was announced a day or two after someone from the Kings Guard arrived at Harrenhall. IE the orders to hold a tournament came from Kings Landing.

And here you are showing the parallels in the Oswald/Ford conspiracy in regards to the Battle of the Trident.

I'm saying Rhaeger was setup just like Lee harvey Oswald was. He was a patsy. Lee Harvey Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree. The time lines do not match.

[King Doug]

I would like to bring over my idea that Jon's parentage may be important, because being a Stark (ability to warg), and a Targ ('blood of the dragon') may give him special abilities when it come to warging a dragon. Does anyone else think this may be possible?

Possible: anything is possible. Likely: not yet.

We learn from Varamyr Sixskins's POV that the bigger and more complex a creature, the harder it is to warg. Varamyr was a highly trained and skilled skinchanger, yet everytime he warged his polar bear it resisted and continued to hate it. Jon doesn't have the ability to do it yet. The only time we've seen him warg is when he accidentally did it to Ghost. He would have to have some training or a serious epiphany.

I put the difficulty of warging a dragon at the top, even harder than warging humans. Bran was able to warg a human, albeit a halfwit, with relative ease. And he was untrained when he learned to do this. Dragons are said to be magical as well, which I'm assuming makes it even more difficult.

If anyone is going to warg a dragon, I think it is going to be Bran. If not him, then Bloodraven, who is also half Targaryen.

ETA: props to you for putting Oldcrow's ramblings together...

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

I've kind of wondered if Jon's commanding the baby Mance, baby Craster switcheroo was a way that would lead him to an understanding of his own heritage and Ned's own choices made at the Tower of Joy, assuming that is the truth to what happened there.

[Alia of the knife]

If Edric was Brandon's, he'd be almost two years older than Jon (assuming that Brandon bedded Ashara at Harrenhall).

I truly admire the work everyone has done in attempting to piece together timelines, because I can't begin to do it, so I'm going to call out what I know beyond assumptions.

First, other than Aegon, or the mysterious stillborn daughter Ashara gave birth to, there are really no other children that do fall into that particular timeline, unless there are still some errors in the valiant effort that fans have made to try and put it together.

And, what of Aegon?

We know he was conceived at KL, because Rhaegar himself remembers a comet the night of his conception over KL.

So, they were home.

Did Elia give birth before Harrenhal?

Not likely, because she would have been too injured to travel since it was stated his birth almost killed her.

So, it seems she gave birth some time after Harrenhal, which would mean two things.

Either she was in the early stages of pregnancy at Harrenhal, but didn't know it for surely they would not have let her travel given her health and Rhaineys birth, or she too became pregnant at Harrenhal, so Aegon is the only one, besides Asharas baby that fits the timeline.

And we're sure that Lyanna herself was not in the early stages of pregnancy with Rhaegars child when he kidnapped her if we assume a relationship started after Harrenhal, and she was staying with the Whents, with Rhaegar likely going there to see her?

I mean, the timelines are really still ambiguous without Martin laying out concrete dates when things were taking place.

The reality is, when Martin started this book, there was no internet, and no fan base that would anyalytically pick apart his work.

Either Martin deliberately made the timelines ambiguous so he could take literary license, or he himself, not imagining the R+L would become so signifigant, didn't pay alot of attention in setting up chronological events, because if he had planned to do that, it would seem he would have given concrete dates.

So, I think despite all the work in trying to figure it out, there is still going to be confusion and frustration.

Until Selmy, how many people thought Ashara had silver hair, rather than dark?

Martin himself said in a recent interview that one thing he does like about computers is now he can catalogue his characters, and their details, because he even admitted it was daunting.

Nonetheless, the conversation between Ned and Arya happened for some reason.

Either it's another red herring, or a double entendre' in Neds statement has a double meaning.

"Jon and I were milk Brothers" will either mean they were nursed by the same wetnurse, but at different times, or it means what it says, and that they were nursed at the same time which will then change things altogether.

But, as it stands now with the timeline that everyone is working with, yes, there is a two-year difference, and Edric is supposed to be younger, and not older, therefore unrelated to any Stark.

Which means that Arya and Ned will definitely have a green light. :)

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

and that he in some way survives the stabbing.

[Oldcrow]

The timelines don't match if you assume that Aerys raped Lyanna at the tournament. However we know that Jaime was named to The Kinsguard at the tournament and that he later tells us about the fire/rape rituals going on at King's Landing. These are facts.

It is also a fact that Rhaegar was not there when the Starks called for him to come out and die. It is assumption that at this point Lyanna was with him and had never been to King's Landing. It is possible that she was taken there and later taken away.

The Starks say she was kidnapped and raped. We definitely know that one Targ in particular was raping women. We dont know that Rhaegar was a rapist. He was married and had 2 kids. I'm not sure exactly when the baby Aegon was born. I presume shortly before the sacking.

What is needed here is a real timeline of events in approximate months.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I dont think Rhaegar is Jon's father. I think he is a patsy/fallguy setup by Aerys. We know Danny is Aerys' son. There is a strong possibility that Tyrion is Aerys' son as well. If the Dragon has hree heads, would that not make sense for Jon to be Aerys son also?

Jon is far too young to have been fathered by Aerys. Of the Targaryens only Rhaegar had access to Lyanna around the time Jon was conceived (middle of the war). It was said in a few places that Aerys in was in KL with no clue as to where Rhaegar was.

Also Dany is Aerys daughter. The evidence that some use to point to Tyrion is very thin at best. The dragon having three heads doesn't mean that all are Aerys children, in fact Rhaegar believed it would be his children not he and his siblings that would fulfill the prophecy. Even so GRRM has said that one may not even be a Targaryen in the end.

[Ygrain]

@Alia of the knife

I don't think GRRM would confuse the timelines in a backstory of such an importance; this is something that would not change and could easily be kept track of even in paper form. I didn't know the timeline myself until I found it here, but there is quite simple means to remember it: Jaime. He was fifteen at Harrenhall, and seventeen at the time of the Sack of KL. Any child conceived at Harrenhall would be to old to be Jon, or even Edric.

Next information comes from GRRM himself, that Jon was born at around the time of the Sack. The rebellion is said to have lasted for about a year, so Jon was conceived well after it started. Aegon is about a year oldso he was born shortly before the rebellion - it has been speculated that Rhaegar turned to Lyanna after he learned that Elia wouldn't be able to bear any more children.

I think the Ned Dayne-Arya conversation is there to remind the readers of the "commonborn Wylla".

[Sasha Steelsong]

Why specifically Viserion? Is it because the cream colour of his scales looks like the white of Ghost / a Weirwood tree? Why isn't Rhaegal, named after his supposed father, a better match?

I was thinking the same thing. Rhaegal always seemed more of the choice for Jon b/c of the connection to his dad. If Viseryon was red and white I might feel differently because of the weirwoood coloring but just cream isn't enough.

[Ygrain]

The timelines don't match if you assume that Aerys raped Lyanna at the tournament. However we know that Jaime was named to The Kinsguard at the tournament and that he later tells us about the fire/rape rituals going on at King's Landing. These are facts. It is also a fact that Rhaegar was not there when the Starks called for him to come out and die. It is assumption that at this point Lyanna was with him and had never been to King's Landing. It is possible that she was taken there and later taken away. The Starks say she was kidnapped and raped. We definitely know that one Targ in particular was raping women. We dont know that Rhaegar was a rapist. He was married and had 2 kids. I'm not sure exactly when the baby Aegon was born. I presume shortly before the sacking. What is needed here is a real timeline of events in approximate months.

??? What fire/rape rituals??? Are you referring to Aerys raping Rhaella after he had someone burnt? Note please that Jaime never mentions the king assaulting sexually anyone else but Rhaella. We know that Aerys had a crush on Joanna Lannister but so far, there is no proof, nor even a hint, that he raped her.

And BTW, it is not the Starks who say that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped, it is Robert. Starks, or rather Ned, are suspiciously quiet in the matter. And the fact that Rhaegar does not seem to be a rapist is why so many of us think that there was no abduction, only eloping.

And Aegon was about one year old at the time of the Sack.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The timelines don't match if you assume that Aerys raped Lyanna at the tournament. However we know that Jaime was named to The Kinsguard at the tournament and that he later tells us about the fire/rape rituals going on at King's Landing. These are facts. It is also a fact that Rhaegar was not there when the Starks called for him to come out and die. It is assumption that at this point Lyanna was with him and had never been to King's Landing. It is possible that she was taken there and later taken away. The Starks say she was kidnapped and raped. We definitely know that one Targ in particular was raping women. We dont know that Rhaegar was a rapist. He was married and had 2 kids. I'm not sure exactly when the baby Aegon was born. I presume shortly before the sacking. What is needed here is a real timeline of events in approximate months.

The idea is, in all likelihood, Lyanna wasn't actually raped. The affair was consensual. You're trying to say that Rhaegar wouldn't have raped her but Aerys would have, so Aerys must be Jon's father, ignoring the clues that no rape was involved at all.

[Oldcrow]

Aerys was up to something. He eliminated quite a few direct heirs of major houses, including the removal of Jaime from Lannister succession.

Do we really have proof that Rheagar loved Lyanna? I know it is stated that she was attracted to him, but was it mutual? He was married after all, and an honorable man. He also prefered a harp to his sword if that means anything at all.

[Budj]

Weird speculation on my part to put towards the theory....the parallels are interesting (to me) at the very least...

AA tried to forge light bringer 3 times. The third time he got it right, but had to kill Nissa Nissa to complete.

Rhaegar thought the dragon had three heads so he porked out at least 2 children....Aegon and Rhaenys(?) are dead...that could equal 2 failed attempts and then potentially attempted a third with Lyanna (who died during child birth) yielding our (or my) favorite guy, Jon...could Jon be lightbringer? Lyanna's dying to bring him into the world would be equivalent to Nissa Nissa's sacrifice...

This would also mean that tPtwP and AA are not the same person...as Rhaeger would have been right in his initial assumption that he was AA reborn.

[Budj]

Aerys could not have fathered Jon. The KG would not have been at the ToJ as a) Jon being the product of a rape would mean he had no claim and B) Viserys would have been older anyways. Aerys =/= Jon's old man.

[Budj]

Oh and selfishly to my desire for Jon to piss off more people and get a second awesome sword...if he is Lightbringer it would be fitting that he be the next person to wield Dawn.

[Ygrain]

Aerys was up to something. He eliminated quite a few direct heirs of major houses, including the removal of Jaime from Lannister succession.

I thought Cersei had a hand, or rather other bodily parts, in Jaime's becoming KG? Also, which other heirs did he eliminate, except Brandon and those who accompanied him and who were charged with treason? - Aerys definitely overreacted, but in a way, his action makes sense - the king punished the lordlings who crossed the line and by threatening his heir, they threatened his authority, as well.

Do we really have proof that Rheagar loved Lyanna? I know it is stated that she was attracted to him, but was it mutual? He was married after all, and an honorable man. He also prefered a harp to his sword if that means anything at all.

Actually, we have more clues that Rhaegar loved Lyanna than the other way round. "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it" (Barristan, in ADWD), "Rhaegar died for the woman he loved" (Dany, somewhere early in the series). Moreover, why should Rhaegar name the place where he supposedly held Lyanna against her will Tower of Joy? On the other hand, the only hint that Lyanna might have fallen for him is that she cried over his song - so, in this respect, his preference of the harp does mean something :-)