404 replies to this topic

[Angalin]

Nothing to quote from the previous thread, which was a little off-track by the end.  Lots of other threads to discuss Catelyn, Dany and other matters in - please stick to the topic.

[Ser Lewis]

I have seen this dotted around the forum. Now I think I'm missing something. I have just finished reading ADWD (and it was epic BTW) and this R+L=J thing confuses me. I understand the concept of who is Jon Snow's mother and father, but all this talk about him riding Viserion (considering what happened in ADWD) is making me wonder if I have missed something.


PS I've not been here long so please don't hate me

Edited by Ser Lewis, 18 May 2012 - 04:00 AM.

[theguyfromtheVale]

What exactly is confusing you about the theory?

Jon riding a dragon in the future is a reasonable assumption, given his heritage, but it's by no means assured or even foreshadowed yet. So... whether or not Jon is going to ride a dragon has little influence on this theory, beyond perhaps giving additional hints that Jon might be half-Targaryen.

[RoamingRonin]

Question: where in the books does it state that Dany will share her dragons with other people or that there will be two more dragonriders?

[theguyfromtheVale]

Well, it's very clear in the books that Dany can't control Rhaegal and Viserion. And indeed, there's some backstory that suggests that this was similar even for Aegon the Conqueror - both he and his two sisters each had their own dragon that they alone were riding, never switching who was riding which dragon.

Now, of course, it's perfectly possible that Dany will never share her dragons willingly. But there are several people around Meereen who might jast try to take Rhaegal or Viserion - Quentyn failed, it seems; but then there's still Victarion with his Dragon Horn; Tyrion who read Septon Barth's book, inaccurate as it may be; and Brown Ben Plumm, who might well try his luck with one of them, to name a few.

[mynci]

Ive a theory that Ive not seen discussed yet...

What if ned stark did have a bastard, but Jon Snow isnt him. R+L=J could be true, but the promise Ned made to Lyanna was to swap them and raise Jon as his own, leaving his own bastard to be raised somewhere else. He could well have had a bastard with Ashara Dayne or whoever else and that kid is still knocking around somewhere.

Let me put it another way: if Ned Stark had a bastard other than Jon, who best fits the bill? Assuming Ned left the kid somewhere near the tower of joy when he rescued Jon, theres one candidate I can think of who's from that neck of the woods and who's broody like a stark and who's lineage is a mystery:  'Darkstar' Gerold Dayne. Also, if he is Ned's bastard, perhaps he knows it - Ive not seen any better reason for Darkstar to want to harm Myrcella than vengeance on the lannisters for dear ol' dad.

[theguyfromtheVale]

As far as we know (which is to say that we know preciously little), Darkstar is quite a bit older than Jon Snow, rather in his early twenties than his mid-teens.

Edited by theguyfromtheVale, 18 May 2012 - 07:19 AM.

[Maester Reek]

Ser Lewis, on 18 May 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

I have seen this dotted around the forum. Now I think I'm missing something. I have just finished reading ADWD (and it was epic BTW) and this R+L=J thing confuses me. I understand the concept of who is Jon Snow's mother and father, but all this talk about him riding Viserion (considering what happened in ADWD) is making me wonder if I have missed something. PS I've not been here long so please don't hate me

It is commonly believed by many on these forums that john survived the incident at the end of adwd... a.k.a. (ides of marsh)

[Oldcrow]

I dont think Rhaegar is Jon's father. I think he is a patsy/fallguy setup by Aerys. We know Danny is Aerys' son. There is a strong possibility that Tyrion is Aerys' son as well. If the Dragon has hree heads, would that not make sense for Jon to be Aerys son also?

Edited by Oldcrow, 18 May 2012 - 09:29 AM.

[Apple Martini]

Ser Lewis, on 18 May 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

I have seen this dotted around the forum. Now I think I'm missing something. I have just finished reading ADWD (and it was epic BTW) and this R+L=J thing confuses me. I understand the concept of who is Jon Snow's mother and father, but all this talk about him riding Viserion (considering what happened in ADWD) is making me wonder if I have missed something. PS I've not been here long so please don't hate me

Him riding Viserion is 100% a guess at this point and as far I can tell has no solid basis in the book. ETA: Oh, and he's not dead or not going to stay dead.

Oldcrow, on 18 May 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

I dont think Rhaegar is Jon's father. I think he is a patsy/fallguy setup by Aerys. We know Danny is Aerys' son. There is a strong possibility that Tyrion is Aerys' son as well. If the Dragon has hree heads, would that not make sense for Jon to be Aerys son also?

Rhaegar had Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, and no one — including, you can infer, Aerys — knew where she was. I see nothing to suggest that Jon (or Tyrion, for that matter) is Aerys' son.

mynci, on 18 May 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Ive a theory that Ive not seen discussed yet... What if ned stark did have a bastard, but Jon Snow isnt him. R+L=J could be true, but the promise Ned made to Lyanna was to swap them and raise Jon as his own, leaving his own bastard to be raised somewhere else. He could well have had a bastard with Ashara Dayne or whoever else and that kid is still knocking around somewhere. Let me put it another way: if Ned Stark had a bastard other than Jon, who best fits the bill? Assuming Ned left the kid somewhere near the tower of joy when he rescued Jon, theres one candidate I can think of who's from that neck of the woods and who's broody like a stark and who's lineage is a mystery: 'Darkstar' Gerold Dayne. Also, if he is Ned's bastard, perhaps he knows it - Ive not seen any better reason for Darkstar to want to harm Myrcella than vengeance on the lannisters for dear ol' dad.

Darkstar is probably too old to be Ned's bastard — he's also not a bastard, seeing as he has the Dayne surname. The two biggest dings in the idea that Ned does have a bastard are:

1. He never, ever thinks of any other child but his trueborn five and Jon.

2. We're beaten upside the head with how honorable Ned is, which is one of the prime clues that Jon is not his bastard either. It would be kind of pointless to keep dropping these insinuations as a clue to Jon's parentage if Ned ended up having a bastard anyway.

Edited by Apple Martini, 18 May 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[Thendel]

Apple Martini, on 18 May 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

Him riding Viserion is 100% a guess at this point and as far I can tell has no solid basis in the book. ETA: Oh, and he's not dead or not going to stay dead. Rhaegar had Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, and no one — including, you can infer, Aerys — knew where she was. I see nothing to suggest that Jon (or Tyrion, for that matter) is Aerys' son.

Why specifically Viserion? Is it because the cream colour of his scales looks like the white of Ghost / a Weirwood tree? Why isn't Rhaegal, named after his supposed father, a better match?

[Apple Martini]

Thendel, on 18 May 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Why specifically Viserion? Is it because the cream colour of his scales looks like the white of Ghost / a Weirwood tree? Why isn't Rhaegal, named after his supposed father, a better match?

Because of the white/albino thing. I don't believe it but that's people's justification.

[Risha]

Couldn't Edric Dayne be Ned's bastard? If Ned brought Jon from the ToJ to Starfall to deliver the sword and break it off with Ashara (who's already pregnant but not showing nor sharing the news with honor-over-all Ned) then left shortly after with Jon, he would not have known about Edric. Being very politically savvy and a lactating mom, she then makes a huge sacrifice and leaves Edric (with the same wetnurse!) to take care of the other babe in all of this--Aegon--who was hidden away before "his" skull was crushed (as Septa Lemore). To cover her tracks, they come up with the stillborn girl child/broken heart tower dive story, which Ned would believe since his honor made him dump her. Just look at the one sequence where we meet Edric--he's painfully shy just like Ned in the Harrenhall Tourney story, and didn't know his mother, or his "Aunt" Ashara, at all. It is a three-way baby swap!

[Oldcrow]

Apple Martini - So Rheagar dies on the trident. Robert kills him and knocks the rubies off of his armor and into the river. Afterwards it becomes known as the Ruby Ford. The RUBY Ford.



And you said, but you cant say it wasn’t Rhaegar, he was at The Tower of Joy. He was in the tower, up high. Just him. You know who else was in the ‘tower’ up high all by himself?


Here is another fact. The tournamnet was announced a day or two after someone from the Kings Guard arrived at Harrenhall. IE the orders to hold a tournament came from Kings Landing.

[Apple Martini]

Risha, on 18 May 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Couldn't Edric Dayne be Ned's bastard?

Nope, too young. He's 12.

Oldcrow, on 18 May 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Apple Martini - So Rheagar dies on the trident. Robert kills him and knocks the rubies off of his armor and into the river. Afterwards it becomes known as the Ruby Ford. The RUBY Ford. And you said, but you cant say it wasn’t Rhaegar, he was at The Tower of Joy. He was in the tower, up high. Just him. You know who else was in the ‘tower’ up high all by himself? Here is another fact. The tournamnet was announced a day or two after someone from the Kings Guard arrived at Harrenhall. IE the orders to hold a tournament came from Kings Landing.

I'm sorry but none of this makes any sense to me. What are you asking?

Edited by Apple Martini, 18 May 2012 - 10:41 AM.

[Alia of the knife]

mynci, on 18 May 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Ive a theory that Ive not seen discussed yet... What if ned stark did have a bastard, but Jon Snow isnt him. R+L=J could be true, but the promise Ned made to Lyanna was to swap them and raise Jon as his own, leaving his own bastard to be raised somewhere else. He could well have had a bastard with Ashara Dayne or whoever else and that kid is still knocking around somewhere. Let me put it another way: if Ned Stark had a bastard other than Jon, who best fits the bill? Assuming Ned left the kid somewhere near the tower of joy when he rescued Jon, theres one candidate I can think of who's from that neck of the woods and who's broody like a stark and who's lineage is a mystery: 'Darkstar' Gerold Dayne. Also, if he is Ned's bastard, perhaps he knows it - Ive not seen any better reason for Darkstar to want to harm Myrcella than vengeance on the lannisters for dear ol' dad.

Well, I hope it's not Edric, (Ned Dayne), because I have plans for him and Arya.

He can be Brandons, then he'll be Aryas cousin.
Little Ned also won a prize riding the rings- Brandon loved to ride the rings too as was stated where he was being fostered.

Of course the age thing is shaky, unless Martin does some real juggling.

"Aegon," (who is probably a dragon- just not Elia and Rhaegars), seems to act younger than his apparent age, hinting that he is not really the age he is.

Edited by Alia of the knife, 18 May 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[King Doug]

Risha, on 18 May 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Couldn't Edric Dayne be Ned's bastard? If Ned brought Jon from the ToJ to Starfall to deliver the sword and break it off with Ashara (who's already pregnant but not showing nor sharing the news with honor-over-all Ned) then left shortly after with Jon, he would not have known about Edric. Being very politically savvy and a lactating mom, she then makes a huge sacrifice and leaves Edric (with the same wetnurse!) to take care of the other babe in all of this--Aegon--who was hidden away before "his" skull was crushed (as Septa Lemore). To cover her tracks, they come up with the stillborn girl child/broken heart tower dive story, which Ned would believe since his honor made him dump her. Just look at the one sequence where we meet Edric--he's painfully shy just like Ned in the Harrenhall Tourney story, and didn't know his mother, or his "Aunt" Ashara, at all. It is a three-way baby swap!

Not the first time this 3-way baby swap has been suggested. But as Apple Martini said, Edric Dayne is just too young to be Ned Stark's bastard. Unless he hung around Starfall for a couple years after the rebellion, but by all indications he did not.

[Oldcrow]

Apple Martini, on 18 May 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

I'm sorry but none of this makes any sense to me. What are you asking?

I'm saying Rhaeger was setup just like Lee harvey Oswald was. He was a patsy. Lee Harvey Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby.

[Apple Martini]

Oldcrow, on 18 May 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

I'm saying Rhaeger was setup just like Lee harvey Oswald was. He was a patsy. Lee Harvey Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby.

... Ooookay.

[King Doug]

Oldcrow, on 18 May 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

I'm saying Rhaeger was setup just like Lee harvey Oswald was. He was a patsy. Lee Harvey Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby.

Apple Martini, on 18 May 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

... Ooookay.

This could be entertaining. Not sure I've seen Apple Martini left speechless