404 replies to this topic

[protar]

About Jon warging Viserion, I think it's also because Viserion is generally the nicest of the dragons from what we've seen whereas Rhaegal is very cruel. Personally I feel Jon might end up riding an ice dragon, with Bran riding Viserion, who's peaceful nature matches Bran's. As for Rhaegal I'm thinking Euron or Victarion will get his hands on him, but that both will die at some point. A bit off-topic though.

[Christine K]

I was just wondering the other day...

IIRC Dany doesn't get burned in AGOT and ADWD, right? If R + L = J, why does Jon burn his hands when he fights the wight in AGOT and saves Mormont?

I acutally do believe this theory, I was just wondering why that happened.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Christine K, on 18 May 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

I was just wondering the other day...

IIRC Dany doesn't get burned in AGOT and ADWD, right? If R + L = J, why does Jon burn his hands when he fights the wight in AGOT and saves Mormont?

I acutally do believe this theory, I was just wondering why that happened.

But Dany does get burned in ADWD.  In her chapter where she is with Drogon she speaks of the burns on her hands healing. She doen't get a full direct blast of fire however so she isn't hurt.

On behalf of Apple Martini (the champion on this score) - Targs are not immune to fire.  GRRM said that Dany's unburn status after the bith of the dragons was a one-shot deal.  Several Targs died in fire related incidents (be it Summerhall and everyone who died in the fire there or the one who tried to drink wildfire to turn into a dragon).

Edited by atpthornton, 18 May 2012 - 01:37 PM.

[Dragonfish]

RoamingRonin, on 18 May 2012 - 06:25 AM, said:

Question: where in the books does it state that Dany will share her dragons with other people or that there will be two more dragonriders?

At the end of ACOK, Dany and Ser Jorah have a conversation in which they both puzzle over the meaning of "the dragon has three heads." Ser Jorah suggests it means there will be three dragon riders, and Dany seems to agree (IIRC). That is where people get the idea that Dany will share her dragons with two other people (though it's entirely possible that Ser Jorah's interpretation is incorrect, and that George is simply misleading readers).

[Casperjd2]

Jon is the prince that was promised.  His is a song of ice and fire.  In ADwD Jon's second to last chapter it starts out with him in a drea with armor of ice and a sword that is so hot he can feel the burn in his hands.

[sillent]

I highly highly doubt that Aerys raped Lyanna to produce Jon, if he raped anyone it seems more likely that it was Joanna to birth Tyrion.. but thats off-topic.

I think we can all agree that R+L did make A baby -- it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to say that Aegon could be a pretender actually being "Jon" who's pretending to be the first son when he isnt. Correct me if I'm wrong but we dont know for sure how GRRM genetics work.

The most likely explanation IS however that R+L=J -- whether or not that suggests that Jon is aPtwP is another matter. (someone from v24 brought up an interesting idea that he could've been promised in the sense that Ned promised Lyanna to keep it a secret).. Either way I highly doubt Jon would be able to warg the dragon since he barely wargs into Ghost, though it wouldn't be too far of a stretch since we dont necessarily know how he will be saved and what consequences that could have for him. (kissed by fire from Mel could make it easier to warg, or a number of other possibilities)
Warging a dragon might not even be the coolest thing necessarily since being able to ride the dragon would accomplish the same thing. And no I dont think Bran will be dragon warging since I'd like to believe only Targs can control/ride dragons! (hoping Moqorro is just tricking Victarian and he'll be expendible once he helps win the battle of meereen)

idk if R+L=J and tPtwP go hand in hand cause I think they atleast partially do (R+L couldve happened solely because "there must be a third" and Elia was unable to birth more children) however I really really wish that we dont end up in a situation where A+J=T(yrion) and he ends up being AA.

[Dragonfish]

Alia of the knife, on 18 May 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

"Jon and I were milk Brothers" will either mean they were nursed by the same wetnurse, but at different times, or it means what it says, and that they were nursed at the same time which will then change things altogether.

For what it's worth, George has said that Wylla nursed Edric Dayne long after she had nursed Jon:

Quote

How could Edric Dayne and Jon Snow be milk brothers if they are several years apart in age - 12 and 16 or so? Can a nursemaid really produce milk for so long a stretch, or perhaps did Wylla have a(nother) kid of her own when Edric was born? Or if Edric was lying, and why didn't Arya call him on it?

Edric is stretching the term a little... "milk brothers" more usually refers to two infants of different parents who were nursed simultaneously by the same woman, but Jon had long been parted from Wylla's breasts by the time Ned came along.

[Christine K]

atpthornton, on 18 May 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

But Dany does get burned in ADWD. In her chapter where she is with Drogon she speaks of the burns on her hands healing. She doen't get a full direct blast of fire however so she isn't hurt. On behalf of Apple Martini (the champion on this score) - Targs are not immune to fire. GRRM said that Dany's unburn status after the bith of the dragons was a one-shot deal. Several Targs died in fire related incidents (be it Summerhall and everyone who died in the fire there or the one who tried to drink wildfire to turn into a dragon).

Oh, right! I do remember her having her burns healing now. So that makes sense! Thanks.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Okay guys, bear with me...

theguyfromtheVale, on 18 May 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

That idea has been proposed before, and has merits. Still, Jon wouldn't be unique in this, as we do know of another Targaryen warg (even greenseer): Bloodraven.

I know it has been proposed before, but it is always shot down in favor of Bran and Bloodraven. I personally feel that Jon's warging abilities will surpass theirs due to his unique parentage. Jon just doesn't have the same training as Bran, nor the experience of Bloodraven, but if he were to receive training...oh boy!

It seems that being a warg is directly linked to worship of the Old Gods and being decended from the First Men, which is obvious in Bran's case (Stark/Tully), but is also the case with Bloodraven. His mother was a Blackwood; the Blackwoods are descended from the First Men, and still worship the Old Gods. This would seem to make Bloodraven a top candidate for warging a dragon, given his Targ/Blackwood parentage, so I can understand this viewpoint.

The other wargs that are not Stark children appear to me to be wildlings, IIRC. I am assuming they are descended from the First Men, since they choose to follow the customs of the First Men, although this assumption may be incorrect. If incorrect, maybe being descended from the First Men, and following the Old Gods only adds to the strength of a warg?  

I feel a Targ/Stark pairing would be more powerful than any other pairing, given the mystical 'prestige' of both the Starks and Targs. Alia of the Knife actually gave me this idea...although she probably didn't realize it. (I'll get to that later.)   

King Doug, on 18 May 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Possible: anything is possible. Likely: not yet.

We learn from Varamyr Sixskins's POV that the bigger and more complex a creature, the harder it is to warg. Varamyr was a highly trained and skilled skinchanger, yet everytime he warged his polar bear it resisted and continued to hate it. Jon doesn't have the ability to do it yet. The only time we've seen him warg is when he accidentally did it to Ghost. He would have to have some training or a serious epiphany.

I put the difficulty of warging a dragon at the top, even harder than warging humans. Bran was able to warg a human, albeit a halfwit, with relative ease. And he was untrained when he learned to do this. Dragons are said to be magical as well, which I'm assuming makes it even more difficult.

If anyone is going to warg a dragon, I think it is going to be Bran. If not him, then Bloodraven, who is also half Targaryen.

ETA: props to you for putting Oldcrow's ramblings together...

Varamyr Sixskins also commented on Jon being a strong skin changer, but untrained in and unaware of his true abilities. He claims to have known it the moment he saw him walking with Ghost. I couldn't agree with you more that based on the evidence in the text the bigger and more complex a creature, the harder it is to warg; but the text also gives evidence that if there is already a bond present it becomes a lot easier, this explains Bran and Hodor. Also, although untrained, Bran was aware of what he was doing when warging Hodor, thanks to Jojen Reed.

If an existing bond assists a warg, it stands to reason that a Targaryen will be needed to warg a dragon given their closeness to them. There is an apparent connection between Targs and dragons, it may not be a 'bond', but it's something. This would leave Bloodraven (Targaryren/Blackwood) and Jon (Targaryen/Stark). I feel Jon has a better case thanks to Alia of the Knife.

In the last thread she stated:


"Also, and this goes back to the "Dunk & Egg" Novellas, during the civil war between the Targaryens, the Starks never apparently declared for either side, but stayed neutral. Other Houses that did this received denegration and shame by the victorious Trueborn Targaryens, but the Targaryens did not seem to bother the Starks, and still kept them as their Wardens of the North, which is unusual for that time, because you had to pick a side.

This is a bit more fanciful, but it appears to be known on some peripheral level that the Starks were "unusual," as in it seemed to be common knowledge that there was something preternatural about them. Lots of folk tales in the South about the Starks changing into wolves, etc. Whether that was born of Southron snobbery and stereotype of a culture they looked down on, (though again, this was the most powerful Kingdom before the conquering), or because Stark "weirdness" (see also the legend of the Night King), is just common knowledge is unknown.

But, perhaps the Targaryens realized in the Starks a family whose bloodline was just as "magical," or even more so given their direct ability to psychicaly connect with beasts and Humans on occasion, and just left them alone and didn't bother them, given their continued loyalty.

In other words, the Starks "spooked" the Targaryens."

And, I'm convinced that this is why having the blood of Stark and Targaryen will give Jon unforeseen power. Hopefully I will get more evidence to support my theory in TWOW when we find out more about the history of the Starks and their 'magic'.

There is definitely something going on with them, and there's also a reason why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, but that's another topic.

Edited by Tippy Wolfsbane, 18 May 2012 - 06:13 PM.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Budj, on 18 May 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

Weird speculation on my part to put towards the theory....the parallels are interesting (to me) at the very least... AA tried to forge light bringer 3 times. The third time he got it right, but had to kill Nissa Nissa to complete. Rhaegar thought the dragon had three heads so he porked out at least 2 children....Aegon and Rhaenys(?) are dead...that could equal 2 failed attempts and then potentially attempted a third with Lyanna (who died during child birth) yielding our (or my) favorite guy, Jon...could Jon be lightbringer? Lyanna's dying to bring him into the world would be equivalent to Nissa Nissa's sacrifice... This would also mean that tPtwP and AA are not the same person...as Rhaeger would have been right in his initial assumption that he was AA reborn.

IMHO:

AA and TPTWP are not the same person, because AA is a legend based on someone that has died, and TPTWP is a prophesied person meant to be AA reborn (AAR). This also means that AAR and TPTWP will NOT be two different people in the series, because TPTWP is AAR.

Your theory is very interesting! But, to me, the idea that Rhaegar was indeed AAR would also make him TPTWP with Jon being Lightbringer. VERY interesting, and it could fit with my own logic, so I'm definitely going to look into this more. Thanks.

[Yeade]

Just to get in my two cents about this whole dragonriding business...

I don't know why folks limit the number of potential dragonriders to three. Yes, assuming the bit about Aegon the Conqueror being wary of riding his sisters' dragons is true, there's evidence that a given dragon can bond to only one rider of Targaryen (or Valyrian) descent at a time. However, considering a dragon's much longer lifespan, it seems likely that one dragon can have a succession of riders provided the last dies before the next takes his seat. On top of this, there are the added complications of how dragons react to those not of Valyrian blood, Valyrian sorcery or other magic, skinchanging--which is not so much riding a dragon as being one--even simply animal training and conditioning.

All in all, I'm inclined to believe Rhaegal and Viserion will not only have multiple riders but that a skinchanger of sufficient power (i.e. Bran) and/or with an existing connection to dragons (i.e. Jon) can wrest control of a beast away from its rider. Tyrion may be able to train all the dragons without bonding to any, for instance. Victarion could ride a dragon only to be killed by Euron, who then takes his brother's place at Dany's side. One of my favorite theories is that Aegriff will succeed in taming a dragon and end up warring with Dany in a repeat of the Dance of the Dragons. Though this obviously might lead to the loss of one of the three dragons.

To return to the topic, lol, I figure by the time dragonriding becomes an issue for Jon, he'll have obligations in commanding the gathered forces of the North, Vale, and Riverlands on the ground. Luckily for him, since he's a skinchanger, he need not actually be mounted upon a dragon's back to be in control of it. I suppose this depends on how good Jon is at multitasking.

I've even toyed with a scenario wherein a conflict between Aegriff and Dany leaves Rhaegal or Viserion crippled and unable to fly. The mountain passes of the Vale could use a giant stationary flamethrower, IMO, to funnel the (hypothetical) undead army of the Others through the Neck and out onto the floodplains of the Trident where they can be roasted by the other two dragons aloft with their riders. Yet another possibility is that Jon only threatens to exert whatever mystical influence he has as a Stark/Targaryen hybrid, lol, to take a dragon for the leverage this gives him against Dany.

Point is, there are other options for GRRM with regards to Jon and the dragons besides making like Pern, lol. The probable political consequences of R+L=J and Jon likely being the Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne are well known. I don't see why there wouldn't be magical consequences to his presumed lineage, too. The Starks and Targaryens are the most overtly magical bloodlines in the series, and odds are Jon's connected to the magical shenanigans surrounding the AAR/PTWP prophecy. So, you know, cover all the bases. And screw with poor Jon's head in another way he can't ignore.

[Oldcrow]

After the birth of his second child, Rheagar learned that his wife could have no more children. This has been used as motivation for him to father more children with Lyanna. However, Rhaegar is killed on the Trident after the birth of his second child. A short time later, his wife toddler and infant child are killed. The important point here is infant and toddler. How old is an infant?

Did Rhaegar have enough time to A. learn that his wife could have no more children, then B. go kidnap and sleep with Lyanna and then still have enough time in between for gestation?

We know that Rheagar kidnapped Lyanna one year after the torunament.We know Ned found her after she had just given birth. How long was it between the sack of Kings Landing and when Ned found Lyanna?

[Dragonfish]

Oldcrow, on 18 May 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

After the birth of his second child, Rheagar learned that his wife could have no more children. This has been used as motivation for him to father more children with Lyanna. However, Rhaegar is killed on the Trident after the birth of his second child. A short time later, his wife toddler and infant child are killed. The important point here is infant and toddler. How old is an infant?

Did Rhaegar have enough time to A. learn that his wife could have no more children, then B. go kidnap and sleep with Lyanna and then still have enough time in between for gestation?

Yes. Aegon was about a year old when he apparently died (maybe even older), so he would have been born around the beginning of the war, almost certainly before it began (because Rhaegar was in King's Landing when he noticed the comet on the night of Aegon's conception, but wasn't in King's Landing for several months after the war began). The war itself lasted for close to a year up to the Sack, so there was plenty of time for Jon to be conceived and born.

Quote

We know that Rheagar kidnapped Lyanna one year after the torunament.

Rhaegar supposedly kidnapped Lyanna, but there are hints that Lyanna actually ran off with him willingly.

Quote

We know Ned found her after she had just given birth. How long was it between the sack of Kings Landing and when Ned found Lyanna?

It's not explicitly stated, but it would have been after he lifted the siege of Storm's End. Probably at least a month or two (which coincides fairly well with Jon's birth, which occurred sometime around the Sack or thereabouts).

Edited by Dragonfish, 18 May 2012 - 06:12 PM.

[sagaz]

Ser Elvin of Clymer, on 18 May 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

I've kind of wondered if Jon's commanding the baby Mance, baby Craster switcheroo was a way that would lead him to an understanding of his own heritage and Ned's own choices made at the Tower of Joy, assuming that is the truth to what happened there.

This is interesting

[Teal'c]

Ser Elvin of Clymer, on 18 May 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

I've kind of wondered if Jon's commanding the baby Mance, baby Craster switcheroo was a way that would lead him to an understanding of his own heritage and Ned's own choices made at the Tower of Joy, assuming that is the truth to what happened there.

Mayhaps it was a breadcrumb for us readers to follow to that conclusion as well...

[Buried Treasure]

Tippy Wolfsbane, on 18 May 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

If an existing bond assists a warg, it stands to reason that a Targaryen will be needed to warg a dragon given their closeness to them. There is an apparent connection between Targs and dragons, it may not be a 'bond', but it's something. This would leave Bloodraven (Targaryren/Blackwood) and Jon (Targaryen/Stark).

I'm yet to be fully convinced that Targaryens in general have a connection with dragons. Dany does, but she is atypical because she is their magical mother (and unless we get a control group of a non-Targaryen using the same method and failing to hatch dragon eggs we don't know that being a Targaryen was a necessary part of that ritual). We have some information that the Valyrians used spells and horns to control dragons, rather than a magical born to them, and the idea that the dragons like people with a drop of  'dragon blood' in them (like Ben Plumm) hasn't really got any solid weight behind it as yet.

The only magical ability that I am fairly certain runs in the Targaryen line is prophetic dreaming. Egg's brother Daeron had them and I think it has been hinted at in a few others too. Daeron called them dragon dreams but that is because his dreams all featured members of his family (as Targaryens symbollically represented as dragons) and they didn't really have an dragons-the-animals magic to them.

[Tree Warg]

C'mon folks..............


Lyanna was not kidnapped. That is Roberts take (he was a drunk and a womanizer. Lyanna wanted no part of him)

Jon could conceivably be up to 3 months old at the time of the confrontation at the Tower of Joy. Please people, I know everyone likes to assume that Lyanna died of birthing complications or shortly thereafter but there is just not enough evidence to support that.
Case in point: When Ned remembers the battle right before swords met he distinctly hears Lyanna call out "Lord Stark". Awfully formal and forceful for someone in the throws of pregnancy.

Jon is it folks but the story of how is the draw

[Dragonfish]

Tree Warg, on 18 May 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

  Case in point: When Ned remembers the battle right before swords met he distinctly hears Lyanna call out "Lord Stark". Awfully formal and forceful for someone in the throws of pregnancy. Jon is it folks but the story of how is the draw

That isn't actually Lyanna saying that. That's the voice of Vayon Poole, which is bleeding into the dream as Ned comes out of it.

[Alia of the knife]

Dragonfish, on 18 May 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

For what it's worth, George has said that Wylla nursed Edric Dayne long after she had nursed Jon:

Thanks!

[Alia of the knife]

Tippy Wolfsbane, on 18 May 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

Okay guys, bear with me... I know it has been proposed before, but it is always shot down in favor of Bran and Bloodraven. I personally feel that Jon's warging abilities will surpass theirs due to his unique parentage. Jon just doesn't have the same training as Bran, nor the experience of Bloodraven, but if he were to receive training...oh boy! It seems that being a warg is directly linked to worship of the Old Gods and being decended from the First Men, which is obvious in Bran's case (Stark/Tully), but is also the case with Bloodraven. His mother was a Blackwood; the Blackwoods are descended from the First Men, and still worship the Old Gods. This would seem to make Bloodraven a top candidate for warging a dragon, given his Targ/Blackwood parentage, so I can understand this viewpoint. The other wargs that are not Stark children appear to me to be wildlings, IIRC. I am assuming they are descended from the First Men, since they choose to follow the customs of the First Men, although this assumption may be incorrect. If incorrect, maybe being descended from the First Men, and following the Old Gods only adds to the strength of a warg? I feel a Targ/Stark pairing would be more powerful than any other pairing, given the mystical 'prestige' of both the Starks and Targs. Alia of the Knife actually gave me this idea...although she probably didn't realize it. (I'll get to that later.) Varamyr Sixskins also commented on Jon being a strong skin changer, but untrained in and unaware of his true abilities. He claims to have known it the moment he saw him walking with Ghost. I couldn't agree with you more that based on the evidence in the text the bigger and more complex a creature, the harder it is to warg; but the text also gives evidence that if there is already a bond present it becomes a lot easier, this explains Bran and Hodor. Also, although untrained, Bran was aware of what he was doing when warging Hodor, thanks to Jojen Reed. If an existing bond assists a warg, it stands to reason that a Targaryen will be needed to warg a dragon given their closeness to them. There is an apparent connection between Targs and dragons, it may not be a 'bond', but it's something. This would leave Bloodraven (Targaryren/Blackwood) and Jon (Targaryen/Stark). I feel Jon has a better case thanks to Alia of the Knife. In the last thread she stated: "Also, and this goes back to the "Dunk & Egg" Novellas, during the civil war between the Targaryens, the Starks never apparently declared for either side, but stayed neutral. Other Houses that did this received denegration and shame by the victorious Trueborn Targaryens, but the Targaryens did not seem to bother the Starks, and still kept them as their Wardens of the North, which is unusual for that time, because you had to pick a side. This is a bit more fanciful, but it appears to be known on some peripheral level that the Starks were "unusual," as in it seemed to be common knowledge that there was something preternatural about them. Lots of folk tales in the South about the Starks changing into wolves, etc. Whether that was born of Southron snobbery and stereotype of a culture they looked down on, (though again, this was the most powerful Kingdom before the conquering), or because Stark "weirdness" (see also the legend of the Night King), is just common knowledge is unknown. But, perhaps the Targaryens realized in the Starks a family whose bloodline was just as "magical," or even more so given their direct ability to psychicaly connect with beasts and Humans on occasion, and just left them alone and didn't bother them, given their continued loyalty. In other words, the Starks "spooked" the Targaryens." And, I'm convinced that this is why having the blood of Stark and Targaryen will give Jon unforeseen power. Hopefully I will get more evidence to support my theory in TWOW when we find out more about the history of the Starks and their 'magic'. There is definitely something going on with them, and there's also a reason why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, but that's another topic.

Well, I have to say that the story of Jon has a lot of similarities with another of my favorite works, "Dune," hence my avatar, so I would not be surprised if Jon was the "Kwisatz Haderach" of this story.