200 replies to this topic

[jon rr stark]

Ser Amoc, on 18 May 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

It seems that Arthur Dayne equipped with Dawn is the universally agreed upon "Greatest Westerosi Warrior" in the modern age. If anything, this just muddles the events at the ToJ even more. If Dayne is so good, how did he lose to Ned Stark and his crew? Especially knowing that Ned isn't considered much of a warrior when compared to the greats, although I'm sure wielding Ice helps out a lot. All this speculation!!! I just want the next book out asap!

I cant see Ned using Ice in that fight. A great sword would be just too slow against that company, we have only ever seen it used in executions. In the TV series  it is inplied Ned is quite a swordsman since Jamie was looking forward to having a real challange at a tourney when he comes south to KL, but Ned replys spmething along the lines he only does it for real. Also he must have been in many battles in the rebellion and you cant see Ned doing anything but leading from the front, and there is no record of him getting injured like the ferocious but perhaps slightly foolhardy Robert. But I see ned as being more than competent in any company. Traits he passed onto Arya.

[SerMixalot]

i think the valyrian steel made ice much easier to use than a normal great sword

[kkae]

jon rr stark, on 18 May 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Ser Amoc, on 18 May 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

It seems that Arthur Dayne equipped with Dawn is the universally agreed upon "Greatest Westerosi Warrior" in the modern age. If anything, this just muddles the events at the ToJ even more. If Dayne is so good, how did he lose to Ned Stark and his crew? Especially knowing that Ned isn't considered much of a warrior when compared to the greats, although I'm sure wielding Ice helps out a lot.

I cant see Ned using Ice in that fight. A great sword would be just too slow against that company, we have only ever seen it used in executions. In the TV series  it is inplied Ned is quite a swordsman since Jamie was looking forward to having a real challange at a tourney when he comes south to KL, but Ned replys spmething along the lines he only does it for real. Also he must have been in many battles in the rebellion and you cant see Ned doing anything but leading from the front, and there is no record of him getting injured like the ferocious but perhaps slightly foolhardy Robert. But I see ned as being more than competent in any company. Traits he passed onto Arya.

I always thought that Ned & Co were on horseback and the three on foot. That would certainly explain a lot.
I don't have AGoT at hand right know so I can't check.

[Ramsay Bolsnow]

Jaime wielding Oathkeeper with both hands would be a solid answer. Alas.

[Evamitchelle]

Ser Amoc, on 18 May 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

It seems that Arthur Dayne equipped with Dawn is the universally agreed upon "Greatest Westerosi Warrior" in the modern age. If anything, this just muddles the events at the ToJ even more. If Dayne is so good, how did he lose to Ned Stark and his crew? Especially knowing that Ned isn't considered much of a warrior when compared to the greats, although I'm sure wielding Ice helps out a lot.

All this speculation!!! I just want the next book out asap!

It was 7 against 3, and only 2 survived out of those 7. Even the greatest warrior will lose if he is too outnumbered. Ned mentions that he would have died if not for Howland Reed. Given what we know of the crannogmen, I assume he used poison or nets, basically a technique that regular knights aren't used to, which might give him an edge.

[Lady Hodor]

Strong Belwas. It is known.

[jon rr stark]

kkae, on 18 May 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

I always thought that Ned & Co were on horseback and the three on foot. That would certainly explain a lot. I don't have AGoT at hand right know so I can't check.

Well they have to be horsed to arrive there. But they all seem such an honourable lot that I'm guessing they would play fair. and 7 - 3 puts the odds in their favour regardless of the talent of the KG. Remember they are all rather cumbersome in heavy armour, so 2 on 1 is quite an advantage. Since Ned was in control of the situation and could have brought an army if he wanted, I'm also guessing he thought the seven he had with him would have been enough to do the job. It just showed the skill of the KG that they did manage to kill five. It was never a fight they could win.

Edited by jon rr stark, 18 May 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[Lord Martin]

No love for Brienne?  She beat Loras in the tourney afterall.

But its Ser Grandfather.  I just re-read his battle against Kraz... he is in complete control and decimates that mohawk-headed freak.  I'd bet on Selmy against just about anyone.

[Ser Amoc]

jon rr stark, on 18 May 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

I cant see Ned using Ice in that fight. A great sword would be just too slow against that company, we have only ever seen it used in executions. In the TV series it is inplied Ned is quite a swordsman since Jamie was looking forward to having a real challange at a tourney when he comes south to KL, but Ned replys spmething along the lines he only does it for real. Also he must have been in many battles in the rebellion and you cant see Ned doing anything but leading from the front, and there is no record of him getting injured like the ferocious but perhaps slightly foolhardy Robert. But I see ned as being more than competent in any company. Traits he passed onto Arya.

Yeah, I like how the tv series played up Ned's skills a lot more than the books. Good point about Ned's use of Ice. I never really thought about it like that. It always seemed to me though that Ned was more of a leader than a great one-on-one fighter. I don't doubt his ability with a sword, but when discussing the best of all-time, or at least modern-time, Ned isn't at the top of that list.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think GRRM said Ned, while capable, was definitely not one of the best.

[Talleyrand]

Lord Martin, on 18 May 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

No love for Brienne? She beat Loras in the tourney afterall.

She won using a move that would have crippled her and probably put her in so much pain that Loras would have been able to finish her off.

Personally I'd go with Barristan or Belwas.
Though if we're allowed dead people then Daemon.

[Ser Amoc]

kkae, on 18 May 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

I always thought that Ned & Co were on horseback and the three on foot. That would certainly explain a lot.

If they did indeed fight while on horseback, I could see that as being a huge advantage. However, why would the Kingsguard leave a guarded position in a tower to fight men on horseback? I think jon rr stark's posit that they all fought honorably on foot seems more likely.

Evamitchelle, on 18 May 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

It was 7 against 3, and only 2 survived out of those 7. Even the greatest warrior will lose if he is too outnumbered. Ned mentions that he would have died if not for Howland Reed. Given what we know of the crannogmen, I assume he used poison or nets, basically a technique that regular knights aren't used to, which might give him an edge.

7 on 3 are long odds, but the 3 were all renowned warriors, while Ned, although good, wasn't considered great, and his team consisted of his brother's squires and Howland Reed, who needed Lyanna Stark to defend him against some other squires back in the day.

There is just too much we don't know regarding the conditions of the battle at the ToJ. Maybe Ned Stark had a tommy gun. That would certainly have helped. I'm just kidding...

Edited by Ser Amoc, 18 May 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[Feather Crystal]

I agree with naming Ser Barristan Selmy the best "alive", and Ser Arthur Dayne "dead", but I think King Robert and Ned Stark need to be included. Robert was supposed to be fearsome with his hammer, and Ned led his van and survived, so he must have had some skill.

[Talleyrand]

Ser Amoc, on 18 May 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

If they did indeed fight while on horseback, I could see that as being a huge advantage. However, why would the Kingsguard leave a guarded position in a tower to fight men on horseback? I think jon rr stark's posit that they all fought honorably on foot seems more likely. 7 on 3 are long odds, but the 3 were all renowned warriors, while Ned, although good, wasn't considered great, and his team consisted of his brother's squires and Howland Reed, who needed Lyanna Stark to defend him against some other squires back in the day. There is just too much we don't know regarding the conditions of the battle at the ToJ. Maybe Ned Stark had a tommy gun. That would certainly have helped. I'm just kidding...

Arthur Dayne was renowned true. But the White Bull was said to be a great warrior in his youth, we are told nothing about his older self and we hear nothing in particular about Whent.
One of Ned's people may have been a squire but so was Josmyn and he killed 2 knights on the Blackwater, wounded a third and took two more prisoner. Also Howland Reed needed help when he was younger and outnumbered 3 to 1. However it is mentioned that he spent the war with Ned so it would be stupid to think he doesn't have some kind of new experience in fighting.

[Ser Adam Dayne]

Perhaps Ser Arthur and the other KG were already injured?  That could greatly explain the outcome of the battle.  I always pictured the end of the TOJ to be Ned, Howland, and one other against Ser Arthur, everybody else is dead or dying.  Ned is not a great warrior, but is certainly someone who can handle himself.  I am going to assume (if my 3 on 1 theory is correct) that the other guy is not half bad either, and you have Howland not engaging directly but hanging back.  Ser Arthur makes for the crannogman, since he knows he can't let him hang back, he's a dangerous little guy to be on the perimeter.  The other guy and Ned engage Ser Arthur, who may be injured at this point, and Dayne cuts down the other guy and starts up with Ned, while trying to still track Howland.  Ned is about to give way and be cut down by Dayne when Howland does just what Ser Arthur feared: shoots him with a dart, throws a net on him, poisons him somehow.  At this point Ned either dispatches Dayne with a heavy heart, or they both fight Ser Arthur who is poisoned and injured, and eventually get the better of him.
      Another scenario has it that right before Ser Arthur is about to kill Ned, he gets poisoned or incapacitated.  He knows he is going to die, so even if he fights and kills Ned and Howland, he's dead anyway, and baby Jon, Lyanna, and the other woman are all alone.  He stops the fight and tells Ned that his sister has a child, she's close to death and that he must entrust Ned with Jon's life.  He knows Ned is an honorable man, and that he is going to die anyway, and Jon must be protected.  Ser Arthur then dies of the poison/his wound, or kills himself, or has Ned put him out of his misery with honor.  I know this one had plenty of holes but it's romantic and valiant in its own way.

I apologize to whoever read my post that had something about the Mets and the Nationals right in the middle.  I was using my iPhone and i pasted it right in the middle by accident.

Edited by Ser Adam Dayne, 18 May 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[Alric Stark]

Seeing alot of love for Arthur Dayne, while I agree all evidence is that he was great...but it is spoken word about a dead man. No one is going to say "He was good but..." when they are relating a legend. Ser Barristan we have both legend and witnessed in POV's his skill. Not sure how Barristan isn't the hands down winner.

Also I love Ned, but he is not an elite fighter. He is certaintly capable, and dangerous but he is a teir below the Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Jamie Lannisters (Pre Hand Loss) level. Now that is not saying he could not best them. I look at combat like mixed martial arts only real sporting parallel...sometimes you can have a more skilled fighter face one of lesser skill (think GSP vs. Matt Serra) and an upset occurs. All it takes is one well timed shot and the battle can turn, the elite level just has it happen less often.

[Grimwolfe]

Ser Amoc, on 18 May 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

It seems that Arthur Dayne equipped with Dawn is the universally agreed upon "Greatest Westerosi Warrior" in the modern age. If anything, this just muddles the events at the ToJ even more. If Dayne is so good, how did he lose to Ned Stark and his crew? Especially knowing that Ned isn't considered much of a warrior when compared to the greats, although I'm sure wielding Ice helps out a lot. All this speculation!!! I just want the next book out asap!

it was ned and 6 of his companions vs 3 kingsguard. it boiled down to Ser Arthur Dayne vs Ned Stark & Howland Reed. Ned stated if it wasn't for Howland, Dayne would have claimed his life with Dawn.

The onyl questions being, had ned and arthur been fighting for a while and howland intervened just as neds strength was failing, or was it a straight forward 2 on 1 situation. i like to think ned held his own for a while and howland helped him before dayne could finish it.

[Talleyrand]

Alric Stark, on 18 May 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Seeing alot of love for Arthur Dayne, while I agree all evidence is that he was great...but it is spoken word about a dead man. No one is going to say "He was good but..." when they are relating a legend. Ser Barristan we have both legend and witnessed in POV's his skill. Not sure how Barristan isn't the hands down winner.

We may hear about Dayne through the word of mouth but its mainly the fact that everyone who knew him says his skill is legendary. MArtin himself said that with Dawn Dayne would beat Selmy in a fight.

[rmanoj]

There is a thread going on about the ToJ fight: http://asoiaf.wester...he-kingsguard/.
For the record, I think that we don't really know enough about Ned's other companions to make a sound judgement. Lord Dustin, Theo Wull, Martyn Cassel and Ser Mark Ryswell could all have been very good swordsmen and better than Ned for all we know. And I do think Ned used Ice in that fight, because otherwise he'd be at even more of a disadvantage against Dayne with Dawn. Both are two-handers - superb, very versatile weapons (and not particularly "slow" - swords aren't that heavy, especially not Valyrian steel ones) if you have the skill to use them and you're not in a confined space.

Anyway, I'd put Arthur Dayne or Daemon Blackfyre at the top if we're talking about the "greatest of all time", Jaime if we're talking about the start of the series (I don't think he could beat Barristan in his prime, but surely he must have slowed down with age), and as things stand right now probably Garlan Tyrell. Or Ser Robert Strong.

Edited by rmanoj, 18 May 2012 - 12:07 PM.

[Alric Stark]

Talleyrand, on 18 May 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

We may hear about Dayne through the word of mouth but its mainly the fact that everyone who knew him says his skill is legendary. MArtin himself said that with Dawn Dayne would beat Selmy in a fight.

He also said without Dawn they are dead even I think he refered to it as a coinflip, and Barristan has a better legacy/more impressive "bouts" in my opinion.

[2minichinz]

If the identities of the "greatest warriors" are sought, certainly the distinction between a "true" knight and a "bad" knight should be considered.  As mentioned by some, many of the "great warriors" are not knights at all. I agree that Ser Grandfather meets the criteria for a true knight.  The Mountain That Rides certainly wins as the most physically powerfully and gruesomely effective.  It seems that almost every knight possesses dark regrets and guilt.  Brienne is a tragic figure; because she had the physique of a man, creditable fighting skills and the heart of a "good" knight, she will forever be lost in between.  And I think Arya is as fierce-hearted as any of those pompous metal-clad knights. She is loyal, realistic and sucks up knowledge like a sponge. I was appalled to read someone called her "spoiled" -- I truly feel that later in the saga, Arya will eclipse Sansa in the plot (& plottings -- heh heh). All the Dothraki, though not in Westeros, impress this reader as truly fearsome.  But maybe the most poignant selection for greatest warrior is Maester Aemon; his vows to the Black Brotherhood made him a spectator to the decimation of his family, the Targaryens. It takes great strength and integrity to watch the ruin and death of those you love, but because of the vows, remain a spectator.