The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones The Hound Women's T-Shirt
Women’s T-Shirt The Hound
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

[Book Spoilers] Are TV "changes" ruining future book revelations?


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 Rickon is FIERCE

Rickon is FIERCE

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 323 posts

Posted 18 May 2012 - 12:09 PM

Thinking over a few of the "changes" or diversions from/additions to the books has me wondering... as the producers of the show have been informed of the endgame for the series, are they letting us in on plot and character developments that were meant to be revealed in later books? And if so, how do you feel about it?

Take LF brokering the Tyrell/Lannister alliance. Some decry his appearance at Renly's camp and Harrenhal as deviations from the books, but are they? He disappeared from the books for quite some time and no one knows where the hell he was until he showed up to spirit Sansa away from KL. Perhaps he did make one or both of those trips and interact with Renly, Catelyn, Margaery and/or Tywin and GRRM just felt the time was not yet right to let us know.

Other tidbits include the leaving aside of all doubt regarding Margaery Tyrell's ambition and the nature of Stannis and Melisandre's relationship, both of which we strongly suspect from previous books but neither was ever completely confirmed (I realize Mel makes reference to Stannis being in her bed in one of her POV's, but I still saw room for interpretation if George wanted to make use of it). Is all this early revelation a good thing? Bad thing? A necessary thing?

For my part I hate the idea that things are being ruined for me. And some of the things I love about the books are the ambiguities. The one and only "reveal" that I absolutely drooled over was the scene showing Rickon violently smashing up a potato(?) as he sat next to Bran during his daily Lord of Winterfell duties. As I've mentioned before, I can't see the purpose for that act other than to foreshadow the savage, vengeance-seeking beast Rickon's going to become. I've thought the clues for this were pretty clear in the books but am thrilled to see what I feel is a little bit of additional support for this expectation of mine.

Any other changes that might be reveals anyone can think of?

#2 zippypoodle

zippypoodle

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 183 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 10:52 AM

I suspect that Margaery's clear calculating ambition in the show is a deviation from the novel rather than a true revelation of something above book-Margaery. I like it because it sets up a much better conflict between Margaery and Cersei than the one we get in the books IMO.

#3 Stanmore

Stanmore

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 559 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 11:38 AM

I've wondered about this. If George has really told D&D where the story is going and they decide to stick to the same destination but not take all the same roots then there's a chance they'll drop red herrings that George has us all believing, or overemphasise subtle foreshadowing that the book readers haven't really picked up on yet.

To be honest though, by this point the show has deviated far enough from things we know for sure happened in the books that we can't really know if any particular change is a refinement of George's overall plot or an extraneous addition of D&D's own invention.


I think the bigger worry is that the show overtakes the books, if that occurs and they stick even vaguely to the story GRRM has laid out for them then spoilers will be inevitable.

#4 Yuki_no_Jon

Yuki_no_Jon

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 75 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 12:03 PM

for me... the changes are for the worse.. especially in this 7th episode...
they DESTROYED Jon's character!
I could bare Arya been skow as a fool (I mean by being face to face with Tywin and not asking his death). lets say it was the circumstances...
I even could bear the "stealing" of the dragons! (although, come on? a king in Quarth? even that hatefull -and in the series even more- Danny doesn't deserve to have all her "folk" killed... why her maids???)
I could bear that because it is used to drive her to THU without taking too much time to explain her thinking and internal conflicts.

But I can't bare, Jon to follow Ygritte (and subsequently sleep with her) by being a traitor to the Watch! we've seen clearly that even later when he really loved her, chose the Watch over her!

so, even from that point, the changes ruin and later revelations, like Jon's choice or Arya's going to the Faceless men...

As about Margery, I can't decide if it is to drive us to believe in Cersei's claims.. and Margery to be the younger queen...
but for sure, events that we already know, ARE destroyed.

EDIT: not to mention that even though not in episode 7, they KILLED Stannis! he would never have slept with Melisandre only for having a son!

Edited by Yuki_no_Jon, 19 May 2012 - 12:06 PM.


#5 The Other Knight

The Other Knight

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 41 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 12:57 PM

It is much easier to explain and connect the dots of something that happens 400 pages later when you really don't have a time limit. We do not want a show full of exposition. Laying the ground work for something like the Tyrell/Lannister relationship gets rid of the awkward pauses in the story when things need to be explained.


for me... the changes are for the worse.. especially in this 7th episode... they DESTROYED Jon's character! I could bare Arya been skow as a fool (I mean by being face to face with Tywin and not asking his death). lets say it was the circumstances... I even could bear the "stealing" of the dragons! (although, come on? a king in Quarth? even that hatefull -and in the series even more- Danny doesn't deserve to have all her "folk" killed... why her maids???) I could bear that because it is used to drive her to THU without taking too much time to explain her thinking and internal conflicts. But I can't bare, Jon to follow Ygritte (and subsequently sleep with her) by being a traitor to the Watch! we've seen clearly that even later when he really loved her, chose the Watch over her! so, even from that point, the changes ruin and later revelations, like Jon's choice or Arya's going to the Faceless men... As about Margery, I can't decide if it is to drive us to believe in Cersei's claims.. and Margery to be the younger queen... but for sure, events that we already know, ARE destroyed. EDIT: not to mention that even though not in episode 7, they KILLED Stannis! he would never have slept with Melisandre only for having a son!


Perhaps you should wait for the season to be over before making such an assumption?

Edited by The Other Knight, 19 May 2012 - 12:59 PM.


#6 Admiral Bolton

Admiral Bolton

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 01:08 PM

For some reason I just can't see HBO adapting beyond Storm of Swords. Feast and Dance just seem unfilmable.

#7 The Other Knight

The Other Knight

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 41 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 01:16 PM

I honestly don't see how they are unfilmable. If anything, their filming will probably make them much better. A lot of streamlining and getting to the point.

The funny thing is, where ASOS needs to be 20 episodes, you could probably bring in AFFC and ADWD in about 15 combined.

#8 Pellaeon

Pellaeon

    The winged lion

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,227 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 02:40 PM

If GRRM told D&D how it ends it realy could ruin the last books, if they wont be careful it could ruind the books, because they must show what happens not out of a single POV but from a general POV ike the Jeyne scene with Jaime in AFFC

#9 AeonFrog

AeonFrog

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 18 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 02:41 PM

I honestly don't see how they are unfilmable. If anything, their filming will probably make them much better. A lot of streamlining and getting to the point. The funny thing is, where ASOS needs to be 20 episodes, you could probably bring in AFFC and ADWD in about 15 combined.


This. Half of both AFFC and ADWD are just characters traveling from place to place (ex. Brienne, Tyrion, Sam, etc.), which can easily be streamlined in the show.

#10 turdle

turdle

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 178 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 02:44 PM

from season 1, the scene where petyr and varys are in the throne room and varys asks petyr how he pictures himself up on the throne. if littlefinger ends up on the throne, i'm going to be pissed at HBO for spoiling that for me.

#11 Pellaeon

Pellaeon

    The winged lion

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,227 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 03:50 PM

from season 1, the scene where petyr and varys are in the throne room and varys asks petyr how he pictures himself up on the throne. if littlefinger ends up on the throne, i'm going to be pissed at HBO for spoiling that for me.

Before or after burn the books for this horrible, horrible ending?

Edited by Pellaeon, 19 May 2012 - 03:50 PM.


#12 SerMixalot

SerMixalot

    Ironically Wearing Sweat Pants

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,620 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 04:18 PM

I believe in the books that LF was behind the Tyrell Lannister alliance, and much of Tyrells machinations.

#13 Dragon greyscale

Dragon greyscale

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 356 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 05:46 PM

I don't believe that any changes we've seen alter clear plot points. We can argue about whether characters have changed (more or less sympathetic/onedimensional etc.) but in terms of plot I don't see any real objections.
You make a good point about the lack of ambiguity in some cases, but that is really inherent to the medium. If we don't see something, it's absent. On the other hand, if we do see something it's clearly present. There is no ambiguous middle ground. If we don't see Margary talking about her ambitions, we don't have any reason to think about it either ( unlike the booka in which cersei's pov makes us question margary's actions) But again, her 'changed' personality does not have to change her ACTIONS in the future. In other words, the plot does not have to suffer because of this change.
Another thing that we have to keep in mind is that different readers have different ideas about what (future) events are/aren't important. What are te means and what are the ends?
Take Jon: if he beheads Qorin because of his orders, I think they've stuck to the plot. If he beheads Qorin because of some crazy passionate love for Ygritte, I'd be dissappointed. I have no reason to believe the latter will happen but you never know. Other readers might think that ygritte's escape is more essential and see that as an end in itself. I disagree and I just see it as a means to reach the "qorin beheading" plot point. The producers chose a diffferent route but the result can still be the same.

#14 zippypoodle

zippypoodle

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 183 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 06:34 PM

for me... the changes are for the worse.. especially in this 7th episode... they DESTROYED Jon's character! I could bare Arya been skow as a fool (I mean by being face to face with Tywin and not asking his death). lets say it was the circumstances... I even could bear the "stealing" of the dragons! (although, come on? a king in Quarth? even that hatefull -and in the series even more- Danny doesn't deserve to have all her "folk" killed... why her maids???) I could bear that because it is used to drive her to THU without taking too much time to explain her thinking and internal conflicts. But I can't bare, Jon to follow Ygritte (and subsequently sleep with her) by being a traitor to the Watch! we've seen clearly that even later when he really loved her, chose the Watch over her! so, even from that point, the changes ruin and later revelations, like Jon's choice or Arya's going to the Faceless men... As about Margery, I can't decide if it is to drive us to believe in Cersei's claims.. and Margery to be the younger queen... but for sure, events that we already know, ARE destroyed. EDIT: not to mention that even though not in episode 7, they KILLED Stannis! he would never have slept with Melisandre only for having a son!


They didn't destroy Jon's character. She flirted with him plenty before he agreed to sleep with her and by the time he doesn't, it's not just to "prove" himself despite his rationalization to himself. Plus, we are almost certain to get the scene where Qhorin orders Jon to kill him and pretend to be with the Wildlings prior to him doing Ygritte. Arya was no more a fool in the show than in the books because Tywin was in Harrenhall in the books and she didn't say his name to Jaqen in the books. And Stannis sleeping with Melisandre is directly from the book.

#15 teemo

teemo

    the swift scout

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,207 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 07:47 PM

from season 1, the scene where petyr and varys are in the throne room and varys asks petyr how he pictures himself up on the throne. if littlefinger ends up on the throne, i'm going to be pissed at HBO for spoiling that for me.


/lol.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> wow, that would blow my mind.

#16 Rickon is FIERCE

Rickon is FIERCE

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 323 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 09:58 PM

from season 1, the scene where petyr and varys are in the throne room and varys asks petyr how he pictures himself up on the throne. if littlefinger ends up on the throne, i'm going to be pissed at HBO for spoiling that for me.


Yeah, that was a scene that got me, too. Clearly these two are responsible for a lot with their behind the scenes machinations, but in the books we don't exactly know what their endgames are, and where they stand vis-a-vis each other. I wondered if it was telling that they were so blatantly matched head to head in those throne room scenes. As if they were the real players and the rest were just the pawns on the game board.

#17 Rickon is FIERCE

Rickon is FIERCE

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 323 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 10:14 PM

And Stannis sleeping with Melisandre is directly from the book.


Yes and no...Mel makes a reference to her bed being empty since Stannis left the Wall (or something to that effect), but although that strongly suggests they're sleeping together, it still leaves a little room for mis/interpretation, if GRRM wants to play with it and us. And I think Yuki no Jon was referring to the fact that TV Stannis was won over by Mel just because she promised him a son, which I agree didn't really strike me as true to his character. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I can remember any mention or suggestion of his great desire for a son. I never read Stannis as power-hungry or obsessed with his legacy or other such; always felt he wanted the throne because he is obsessed with rules and law and what he feels is "right." He is the rightful heir according to the laws of succession and so he feels it's his duty to fill that role. He's also bitter over the past with his brothers and not having been given what he felt should have been his when Robert took the throne, that being Storm's End. So now he wants what he feels he's owed. But these seemed to me his only motivations for seeking power.

#18 GoodGuyA

GoodGuyA

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 519 posts

Posted 19 May 2012 - 11:26 PM

I honestly don't see how they are unfilmable. If anything, their filming will probably make them much better. A lot of streamlining and getting to the point.

Totally agree. The Kingsmoot in AFFC was long and tedious, but I think as a TV event it could work as something really magnificent.

#19 Yuki_no_Jon

Yuki_no_Jon

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 75 posts

Posted 20 May 2012 - 04:44 AM

They didn't destroy Jon's character. She flirted with him plenty before he agreed to sleep with her and by the time he doesn't, it's not just to "prove" himself despite his rationalization to himself. Plus, we are almost certain to get the scene where Qhorin orders Jon to kill him and pretend to be with the Wildlings prior to him doing Ygritte. Arya was no more a fool in the show than in the books because Tywin was in Harrenhall in the books and she didn't say his name to Jaqen in the books. And Stannis sleeping with Melisandre is directly from the book.


Yes and no...Mel makes a reference to her bed being empty since Stannis left the Wall (or something to that effect), but although that strongly suggests they're sleeping together, it still leaves a little room for mis/interpretation, if GRRM wants to play with it and us. And I think Yuki no Jon was referring to the fact that TV Stannis was won over by Mel just because she promised him a son, which I agree didn't really strike me as true to his character. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I can remember any mention or suggestion of his great desire for a son. I never read Stannis as power-hungry or obsessed with his legacy or other such; always felt he wanted the throne because he is obsessed with rules and law and what he feels is "right." He is the rightful heir according to the laws of succession and so he feels it's his duty to fill that role. He's also bitter over the past with his brothers and not having been given what he felt should have been his when Robert took the throne, that being Storm's End. So now he wants what he feels he's owed. But these seemed to me his only motivations for seeking power.


Yes, I did meant that the motive was different! and for me, it doesn't only matter for an event to occur, but to occur in such a way that the character isn't changed!
It is as Rickon is FIERCE said. I don't mind that Stannis slept with Melissandre (he probably did the same in the books), but it was crystal clear that he hadn't fallen for her as a woman. It was her sorcery that he needed!
As about Ygritte-chan, -I was so dissappointed by the tv show that I had to reread the specific chapter- she didn't started right away to try to seduce him. and still, even if she did, he tried till the end to stay faith to his vows! (remember.. he did betrayed her, even though his heart wanted to stay with her forever and ever!)
But I;m afraid that they won't show us Halfhand at all... and that this last scene meant that Ygritte trapped Jon and brought him to Mance Rayder! That's why I'm so furious with that specific part. If not for this, I find no point in the whole story with her trying to escape, when Jon clearly let her go! /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />

#20 SerMixalot

SerMixalot

    Ironically Wearing Sweat Pants

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,620 posts

Posted 20 May 2012 - 09:53 AM

For me alot the characterization has changed with the series

for example with Jon: Now I and QH would have to question whether he has already turned or started to turn or seriously started to consider turning his cloak due to lust for Y. That makes his turning on orders far less noble and pure and reluctant, which goes directly torwards his character. One will feel that he is far less guilty over sleeping with Y now that he has been shown considering it

WRT to Arya, we have lost much of her fouindations for becoming a super ninja. Her needlework, her leadership on the road, her being a mouse and a sheep all serve as the foundation for becoming a FM later in the series. IN the book these things went towards her losing her identity and becoming a shadow with many identities. Her becoming a ruthless killer which happens when she escapes Harrenhall should now come as a completely out of character moment. By this time in the book she had killed several men at her own hands