216 replies to this topic

[butterbumps!]

The last Dany thread ( http://asoiaf.wester...ople-hate-dany/ ) was extremely lively, civil and got to some pretty interesting debate.  It got locked for length, but seemed like there was a lot more people wanted to say, and some interest in continuing.  (I know, I know, not another, but it got long really fast).

It left off on a few points:
    -Whether Dany supporters/ opponents would be disappointed if she turned out to be a "bad guy"/ "hero"  (Basically, her overall purpose and destiny in the story)
    -How pervasive her betrayals in Meereen actually were (Shavepate, Hizdar, The Green Grace Harpy), and whether Selmy knew.
    - Some comparisons to Jon Snow's parallel position.
    -Trusting Quaithe/ (and  Melisandre for Jon)

Personally, I'd love to see these "Dany of the Week" threads start to bridge the "magical" aspects with her "secular" facets-- prophesies and personal choices.  


One last note:  I figured I should post the reminder a Mod said in the closing post, just to be safe: "Abstract discussions of racism/oppression/etc belong over in General Chatter and should be approached cautiously."

[ManyFacedOne]

I wouldn't be disappointed if she goes mad and ends up as a villian because of that. Her eventual invasion of Westeros combined with her approaching madness would make for an interesting combination, I think.

[kwvapor]

Jon Snow and Dany definitely parallel each other.

Jon is stuck on what Ned taught him and often go back to it for a point of reference.
Dany likewise with her brother's stories, tales and gibberish.

They both are young and inexperience and thrown into positions of power, too early, most must agree.
Thus, their spiral downhill began, sometimes feeling they have no option but to make certain decisions to move forward.

Jon puts on the LC's hat and Dany puts on the Queen's tiara.  
They both grown tired of their work and are forced by circumstance into positions which bring about assassination attempts.

If Tyrion meets up with Dany soon.  He'll be the only character to meet both Jon and Dany.

[butterbumps!]

Censored Wolf, on 18 May 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Jon Snow and Dany definitely parallel each other.

Jon is stuck on what Ned taught him and often go back to it for a point of reference.
Dany likewise with her brother's stories, tales and gibberish.

They both are young and inexperience and thrown into positions of power, too early, most must agree.
Thus, their spiral downhill began, sometimes feeling they have no option but to make certain decisions to move forward.

Jon puts on the LC's hat and Dany puts on the Queen's tiara.  
They both grown tired of their work and are forced by circumstance into positions which bring about assassination attempts.

If Tyrion meets up with Dany soon.  He'll be the only character to meet both Jon and Dany.

Well, surely there's a good deal more than that!  There's a lot of circumstances of their respective tenures as leaders that coincide.

For example, both are put into situations where providing sustenance for their people is a dire concern.  Dany muses that the recently sabotaged olive groves that were a big part of the economy will take too long to grow to give her people the resources and money they need now.  Dany doesn't really try to figure out other ways to handle this, and I'm not sure what her other options are, if there even are any.  Conversely, Jon considers hiring Myrish (?) glassmakers to build wintergardens for food, and (albeit, extreeeeemely luckily) a Braavosi banker comes and extends a line of credit to buy food with for winter.  (I give him points for the out of the box consideration to build wintergardens rather than simply exporting either food or glass, but think the Banker showing up is super lucky).

I would say these are pretty similar scenarios, but Jon takes a different (and admittedly, much more fortuitously successful) path than Dany does.  In a perfect world, I think that had Dany considered it, she could have also attempted to secure money from the Iron Bank; however, I think that her move with the "Dracarys" and the Unsullied pretty much guaranteed that no Braavosi bank would do business with her, so it's not a reasonable option at that point.


On another note, one of the discussion points I thought was interesting from the previous thread is the complete and utter villainy of the Ghiscari culture we see.  I have trouble believing that a culture could survive so long being this incompetent, stupid, lazy and deliriously evil, and I wonder if we've really seen the entire composition of these people- Tze pointed out that we have yet to see the craftsmen, specialists and other tradesman and merchant classes, and it's possible that a different perspective will emerge.  If this is the case, I wonder if we can so summarily write off Meereen as the embodiment of pure evil and deserving of whatever comes to them as a whole....

[Winterfellian]

Am not a Dany fan but I think that whether she turns out a hero or villain it has to be managed in a credible way by the author. In my case I will lose respect for the series if after solving every problem in Mereen with fire and blood she suddenly shows up in Westeros in the most cliche way possible to save everybody with her dragons and then proceed to sit on the iron throne just as easy . But I will be equally disappointed if she turns out in some cartoonish villain or like someone said on the last thread if her sole purpose is a plot device to further the male characters.

However I don't think that George Martin will pull something like this.

About Tyrion this was one of the reasons I was so disappointed that Tyrion never met her. I really wanted to see Danny from a somewhat unbiased POV character.

[Winterfellian]

butterbumps!, on 18 May 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

  On another note, one of the discussion points I thought was interesting from the previous thread is the complete and utter villainy of the Ghiscari culture we see. I have trouble believing that a culture could survive so long being this incompetent, stupid, lazy and deliriously evil, and I wonder if we've really seen the entire composition of these people- Tze pointed out that we have yet to see the craftsmen, specialists and other tradesman and merchant classes, and it's possible that a different perspective will emerge. If this is the case, I wonder if we can so summarily write off Meereen as the embodiment of pure evil and deserving of whatever comes to them as a whole....

This was one of the points I find to be more against Danny and how we view her. How can we make a neutral assesment of her abilities as a ruler when setup against such antagonists like the slavers, which are as stupid and evil as they come?

[The Other Knight]

Censored Wolf, on 18 May 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Jon Snow and Dany definitely parallel each other. Jon is stuck on what Ned taught him and often go back to it for a point of reference. Dany likewise with her brother's stories, tales and gibberish. They both are young and inexperience and thrown into positions of power, too early, most must agree. Thus, their spiral downhill began, sometimes feeling they have no option but to make certain decisions to move forward. Jon puts on the LC's hat and Dany puts on the Queen's tiara. They both grown tired of their work and are forced by circumstance into positions which bring about assassination attempts. If Tyrion meets up with Dany soon. He'll be the only character to meet both Jon and Dany.

And with my first post, I am going to have to disagree. Jon was definitaly thrown into a position of power, but I argue even with his youth, he proved to be by far the best option.

Dany on the otherhand chose her position and proved just how inept she is.

[butterbumps!]

Winterfellian, on 18 May 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Am not a Dany fan but I think that whether she turns out a hero or villain it has to be managed in a credible way by the author. In my case I will lose respect for the series if after solving every problem in Mereen with fire and blood she suddenly shows up in Westeros in the most cliche way possible to save everybody with her dragons and then proceed to sit on the iron throne just as easy . But I will be equally disappointed if she turns out in some cartoonish villain or like someone said on the last thread if her sole purpose is a plot device to further the male characters. However I don't think that George Martin will pull something like this. About Tyrion this was one of the reasons I was so disappointed that Tyrion never met her. I really wanted to see Danny from a somewhat unbiased POV character.

I strongly agree with this, but I want to extend it even farther.  I would be disappointed if Dany lost ALL of her dragons unwillingly (even if it meant the triad of Sansa Arya and Brienne, though, that does a have certain charm).  Given my views of the ultimate "villain" being humans+magic, I strongly want to see Dany willingly destroy them, not have someone take away that act of heroicism.  And in general, it would feel so pointless if if her entire arc was only to bring dragons into someone else's hand.

[Lady of Long Lake]

The Other Knight,

Welcome to the forums:)

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I'm convinced that she will go mad and destroy herself, although I hope this is not the case.

[Winterfellian]

To The Other Knight..yes welcome to the forums!!

[kwvapor]

The Other Knight, on 18 May 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

And with my first post, I am going to have to disagree. Jon was definitaly thrown into a position of power, but I argue even with his youth, he proved to be by far the best option. Dany on the otherhand chose her position and proved just how inept she is.

I see you think Jon was the best choice, I agree.  

So instead of Dany you would have preferred who?  When did she have a choice in anything?  
Maybe she should have married Jorah and gave her dragons away to the nearest conquerer.

[Stanmore]

butterbumps!, on 18 May 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Well, surely there's a good deal more than that! There's a lot of circumstances of their respective tenures as leaders that coincide. For example, both are put into situations where providing sustenance for their people is a dire concern. Dany muses that the recently sabotaged olive groves that were a big part of the economy will take too long to grow to give her people the resources and money they need now.  Dany doesn't really try to figure out other ways to handle this, and I'm not sure what her other options are, if there even are any.

She seems to think Trade with the Lamb men might be a solution to that problem.  I'm not sure what Meereen has to trade at the moment, but I’d imagine there's quite a few craftsmen amongst her freed slaves. I'm thinking ornamental goods and complex items the Lamb men don't have the knowledge or facilities to make.

butterbumps!, on 18 May 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Conversely, Jon considers hiring Myrish (?) glassmakers to build wintergardens for food, and (albeit, extreeeeemely luckily) a Braavosi banker comes and extends a line of credit to buy food with for winter. (I give him points for the out of the box consideration to build wintergardens rather than simply exporting either food or glass, but think the Banker showing up is super lucky). I would say these are pretty similar scenarios, but Jon takes a different (and admittedly, much more fortuitously successful) path than Dany does. In a perfect world, I think that had Dany considered it, she could have also attempted to secure money from the Iron Bank; however, I think that her move with the "Dracarys" and the Unsullied pretty much guaranteed that no Braavosi bank would do business with her, so it's not a reasonable option at that point.

I wonder why she made no attempt to borrow from one of the other free city banks. Sure Braavos is the biggest, but the other cities all have banks of their own. And many of the other cities would be  much happier to deal with a decendent of old Valeryia I'm sure she'd find someone willing to lend to her.

butterbumps!, on 18 May 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

On another note, one of the discussion points I thought was interesting from the previous thread is the complete and utter villainy of the Ghiscari culture we see. I have trouble believing that a culture could survive so long being this incompetent, stupid, lazy and deliriously evil, and I wonder if we've really seen the entire composition of these people- Tze pointed out that we have yet to see the craftsmen, specialists and other tradesman and merchant classes, and it's possible that a different perspective will emerge. If this is the case, I wonder if we can so summarily write off Meereen as the embodiment of pure evil and deserving of whatever comes to them as a whole....

I get the impression that a lot of the crafting was performed by artisan slaves. There's slaves trained for pleasure and slaves trained for war, It really seems like the Ghiscari ruling classes have all their needs catered for them without having to lift a finger.

I suppose that could be why their culture appears so decadent and  stagnant.  True Ghiscari don't create, they have other people to do that.

Edited by Stanmore, 18 May 2012 - 08:34 PM.

[The Other Knight]

Thanks for the welcome. Long time lurker who finally found the courage to sign up.

Censored Wolf, on 18 May 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

I see you think Jon was the best choice, I agree.  

So instead of Dany you would have preferred who?  When did she have a choice in anything?  
Maybe she should have married Jorah and gave her dragons away to the nearest conquerer.

I think it is fair to say Dany has been choosing her path since Drogo's death.

I also don't see how this as an "either or" situation. Dany involves herself in situations that are none of her business. She shows up with her fire, causes blood shed and leaves the people worse off then they were when she arrived. And it is even worse when you compare her to Jon, because she has so many advantages in comparsion. Yet Jon, only a couple of years older then her, shows resolve, clarity and common sense that would topple Dany.

[Castel]

Quote

I get the impression that a lot of the crafting was performed by artisan slaves. There's slaves trained for pleasure and slaves trained for war, It really seems like the Ghiscari ruling classes have all their needs catered for them without having to lift a finger.

I suppose that could be why their culture appears so decadent and stagnant. True Ghiscari don't create, they have other people to do that.

Well, they teach the slaves so they have the knowledge, I guess there's just not much incentive to actually innovate when you have a limitless amount of free labor and don't need to create machines that reduce labor. Interestingly, this is the complete opposite of what Xaro said. There was a whole thread about how history bore this out, which I can't find anymore but was one of the more interesting reads on the forum.

Quote

I wonder why she made no attempt to borrow from one of the other free city banks. Sure Braavos is the biggest, but the other cities all have banks of their own. And many of the other cities would be much happier to deal with a decendent of old Valeryia I'm sure she'd find someone willing to lend to her.

Valyrians... aren't necessarily well liked.

The problem is that banks look at the risks involved. Gain vs. risk. Dany has already broken her word, has little to put up, except dragons and doesn't have anything remotely resembling a potential income stream.And she shows little interest in going to the one place she could actually get enough money to pay back a loan. Not to mention that everyone is about to dogpile her, Dany is a bad potential investment, while the people trying to kill her have probably been clients for centuries.

Edited by Castel, 18 May 2012 - 09:10 PM.

[Lord Damian]

The events in book 5 involving Dany is a somewhat life altering moment. She has drifted pretty far out there but it was time to shake some sense in her. I think she will resolve business where she is quickly and head to Westeros. It is time and past time.

[Stanmore]

Castel, on 18 May 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Well, they teach the slaves so they have the knowledge, I guess there's just not much incentive to actually innovate when you have a limitless amount of free labor and don't need to create machines that reduce labor. Interestingly, this is the complete opposite of what Xaro said. There was a whole thread about how history bore this out, which I can't find anymore but was one of the more interesting reads on the forum.

I'll have to look for that. Sounds like an interesting thread.

Castel, on 18 May 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Valyrians... aren't necessarily well liked.

The problem is that banks look at the risks involved. Gain vs. risk. Dany has already broken her word, has little to put up, except dragons and doesn't have anything remotely resembling a potential income stream.And she shows little interest in going to the one place she could actually get enough money to pay back a loan. Not to mention that everyone is about to dogpile her, Dany is a bad potential investment, while the people trying to kill her have probably been clients for centuries.

Oh i'm sure that in many of the free Cities the Valyrians are seen with contempt, (none more so that Braavos) but i thought others actually saw themselves as Valyrian successor states. I know Volantis is one, but they seem to have declared against Dany in favour of the continued slave trade, so that's probaly not a good place to look for investment right now

You're right about the details of her situation though, I just found it interesting that she didn't even try to get a loan. I suppose Meereen's coffers aren't all that empty really. She was managing to pay for 2 mercenary companies after all. I guess buying food wouldn't be a problem if her ports weren't being blockaded by the people she'd like to trade with.

Edited by Stanmore, 18 May 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[eyeheartsansa]

It's been pointed out that when a monarchy doesn't settle its debt with the crown, a new king springs up.

For this reason, and this reason only, I could see the Iron Bank getting behind Dany to take the Iron Throne, despite her terrible 'credit score.'

It wouldn't be dany doing the negotiating, but someone like Illyrio.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 18 May 2012 - 09:42 PM.

[Apple Martini]

eyeheartsansa, on 18 May 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

It's been pointed out that when a monarchy doesn't settle its debt with the crown, a new king springs up. For this reason, and this reason only, I could see the Iron Bank getting behind Dany to take the Iron Throne, despite her terrible 'credit score.' It wouldn't be dany doing the negotiating, but someone like Illyrio.

But they've already thrown in with Stannis, for that very reason. Would they back both?

[Kittykatknits]

@Butterbumps! and Faint

Just read through the previous thread and saw a small exchange about Tyrion:

Quote

Subverting Tyrion in later books is way more than cosmetic. For all intents and purposes, Shae wasn't a "bad" person, and she was put up to that awful testimony at Tyrion's trial by Cersei. When he strangles her, I think this is a good example of really graying him a bit more.

Quote

I'm surprised you think so. The fans, by and large, still love him. Had he, as I suggested before, raped Sansa or killed one of his nephews? Not so much.

That said, he is supposed to be the edgy hero. Not quite good, not all bad, etc.

Tyrion Lannister is my favourite. He is the grayest of the gray. In every conventional sense, he is on the wrong side but you have to agree with some of the things he is doing while loathing others. He is very smart and witty, and that makes him fun to write.
- Martin, 2000
http://www.sfsite.com/01a/gm95.htm

Note he wrote this back in 2000, long before we saw Tyrion hit even lower points in Dance. He's not evil but Tyrion is easily a dark grey character. I would not call him a hero by any stretch either.  He is witty so his chapters are fun to read but that's not the same thing as being a hero.