216 replies to this topic

[Winterfellian]

eyeheartsansa, on 18 May 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

It's been pointed out that when a monarchy doesn't settle its debt with the crown, a new king springs up. For this reason, and this reason only, I could see the Iron Bank getting behind Dany to take the Iron Throne, despite her terrible 'credit score.' It wouldn't be dany doing the negotiating, but someone like Illyrio.

You also have to keep in mind that the Bravossi descend from those who fled the dragonlords of old. When Jon jests about dragons in ADWD the bravossi banker (can't remember his name) clearly replies this and that they don't like to mention dragons even when is a joke. Why should they sponsor a direct descendant from the Valiryans? If anything I can see them supporting a person or group to bring her down.

Edited by Winterfellian, 18 May 2012 - 09:43 PM.

[Castel]

Winterfellian, on 18 May 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

You also have to keep in mind that the Bravossi descend from those who fled the dragonlords of old. When Jon jests about dragons in ADWD the bravossi banker (can't remember his name) clearly replies this and that they don't like to mention dragons even when is a joke. Why should they sponsor a direct descendant from the Valiryans? If anything I can see them supporting a person or group to bring her down.

And Dany simply can't be trusted. Stannis however, can. Never trust anyone with dragons,  they make their own rules.

[Sevumar]

Winterfellian, on 18 May 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

You also have to keep in mind that the Bravossi descend from those who fled the dragonlords of old. When Jon jests about dragons in ADWD the bravossi banker (can't remember his name) clearly replies this and that they don't like to mention dragons even when is a joke. Why should they sponsor a direct descendant from the Valiryans? If anything I can see them supporting a person or group to bring her down.

But... but the dragons will be greeted as liberators. In all seriousness, I could see the Iron Bank possibly considering throwing money at her to stay in Meereen and try to stabilize the situation. I don't think she'd ever make a pledge to give up her campaign for the throne of Westeros, but it would make the politics a little more interesting.

[Winterfellian]

Sevumar, on 18 May 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

But... but the dragons will be greeted as liberators. In all seriousness, I could see the Iron Bank possibly considering throwing money at her to stay in Meereen and try to stabilize the situation. I don't think she'd ever make a pledge to give up her campaign for the throne of Westeros, but it would make the politics a little more interesting.

To be honest am still a little esceptic about the role the dragons will have. I mean theres's no much evidence that sets them up as liberators, specially when they can't be controlled as they are now.

As an aside,  thousands of years of prejudice against the Valyrians might be something difficult to overcome. I should imagine that they might even compare some of the destruction that cities like Astapor suffered under Dany's liberation campaign to the destruction her ancestors ancestors inflicted on the cities that refused to be conquered.

I agree with you in that I don't see her giving up the Iron Throne.

[Maester Nikolas]

Ah it's good to back after a hiatus. Thanks for starting this thread Butterbumps- this is a great idea. Civil discussion of Dany is definitely better than a yelling fest from fans who are trying to be polar opposites. In any case, for this situation an old Celtic proverb comes to mind "Don't fight a dragon unless you're one as well". Drogon may or may not now be under Dany's control, and that will change everything. It is often said that there's a fine line between genius and madness- let's hope we don't find out how thin that line is. I had some good material on some of this stuff a while back- wonder if I could find it again....

[Dragonstar]

Civil is a bit of a stretch. I regretted starting that thread 2 pages in. I think some ground rules we should stick to:
- don't accuse others of being racists
- don't accuse others of being mysoginsyts


- unless of course they are. J/k.


Seriously would love open debate but it gets very shrill very quickly.

[The Annazon]

The Other Knight, on 18 May 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

Thanks for the welcome. Long time lurker who finally found the courage to sign up.



I think it is fair to say Dany has been choosing her path since Drogo's death.

I also don't see how this as an "either or" situation. Dany involves herself in situations that are none of her business. She shows up with her fire, causes blood shed and leaves the people worse off then they were when she arrived. And it is even worse when you compare her to Jon, because she has so many advantages in comparsion. Yet Jon, only a couple of years older then her, shows resolve, clarity and common sense that would topple Dany.

What was she supposed to do ?

[FuzzyJAM]

Princess Anna, on 19 May 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

What was she supposed to do ?

Nothing.

Seeing a bad situation and deciding you "have" to do something, even when that something will inevitably lead to a worse situation, is not acceptable.

Edited by FuzzyJAM, 19 May 2012 - 01:22 AM.

[danm_999]

Princess Anna, on 19 May 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

What was she supposed to do ?

Not get involved in the Slaver's Bay mess.

[The Annazon]

FuzzyJAM, on 19 May 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

Nothing.

Seeing a bad situation and deciding you "have" to do something, even when that something will inevitably lead to a worse situation, is not acceptable.

SO basically get raped by every khal and ko who decided to , remember GRRM described her as the hottest female character in the books, and she would be especially hot with her "exotic" looks. That is not a good thing for a 13 year old former khaleesi and the last of her family

[The Annazon]

danm_999, on 19 May 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

Not get involved in the Slaver's Bay mess.

Ok if she did not do that , how should she have gone about getting the throne

[danm_999]

Princess Anna, on 19 May 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

Ok if she did not do that , how should she have gone about getting the throne

Taken herself to Pentos (and hell, she could even have done this AFTER Astapor WITH the Unsullied) where with Illyrio and Aegon she can use the Golden Company and Dorne to invade Westeros.

[FuzzyJAM]

Princess Anna, on 19 May 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

SO basically get raped by every khal and ko who decided to , remember GRRM described her as the hottest female character in the books, and she would be especially hot with her "exotic" looks. That is not a good thing for a 13 year old former khaleesi and the last of her family

Huh?  

I'm all for her travelling across the wastes with her "khalasar".  I don't think anyone is against that.  I'm not for her getting an army of Unsullied through treachery and then completely destroying any sense of order for an entire region with zero plans on how to put it together again - that's when she starts choosing to gain power, when her strength and people increase by about 1,000,000%.

Princess Anna, on 19 May 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

Ok if she did not do that , how should she have gone about getting the throne

Who's to say she should sit on the Iron Throne?  At that point, the only person who wants her in Westeros is an outlawed knight who has fled execution (for being a slaver, hilariously enough) and Doran (who she doesn't even know about), who wants to plunge the realm into war so he can avenge his sister's death.  I'm not seeing the positives here.

Edited by FuzzyJAM, 19 May 2012 - 01:51 AM.

[butterbumps!]

Sevumar, on 18 May 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

But... but the dragons will be greeted as liberators. In all seriousness, I could see the Iron Bank possibly considering throwing money at her to stay in Meereen and try to stabilize the situation. I don't think she'd ever make a pledge to give up her campaign for the throne of Westeros, but it would make the politics a little more interesting.

Yea- this is something I'd wondered about as well, and I've seen a lot of arguments about how it can swing both ways- Braavosi hating dragons as oppression machines, but Dany using them for liberation.

I'm going to go on a limb here and say that the Braavosi won't back Dany despite what it seems like her intentions are in using them.  Keep in mind that they would be well aware that dragons are exactly how the Valyrians were able to overthrow ancient Ghiscari rule and enslavement, and exactly how those libration vehicles were used  subsequently to enslave others.  It's telling to me that the Braavosi liberated themselves not by subverting the Valyrian's power through stealing the dragons or matching force with force, but basically fleeing and founding a new civilization founded on the premise of freedom (so the oppressed took pains to not become the oppressors, used tactics that were defensive rather than offensive).  

I've also seen theories that speculate the Braavosi might have been behind the Doom 400 years after they fled, and if this is the case, I could see this supporting the fact that they are against dragon-force for all purposes- they could have stolen dragons for supposedly defensive ends, but instead destroy them so that no one can use such dangerous weapons for good or bad.

@Stanmore
I think the fact that a lot of business options would be closed to her after the Unsullied incident is why I disapprove of the way she handled that.  For me at least, it's not about moral outrage in the tactic or going back on a promise as a moral imperative, but in that it was a useful tactic but bad for long-term strategy.  Who would reasonably engage in future transactions with someone who proved that she is untrustworthy and willing to use force/ trickery to get out of paying debts?  This incident has some good-- no more Unsullied will be produced in terribly inhumane conditions, she stood up to the reprehensible slavers, it won her an army-- but there are some serious practical setback it caused.

Edited by butterbumps!, 19 May 2012 - 01:48 AM.

[Dragonstar]

I think after the Others have their way with Westeros, it won't really matter who sits the iron throne.

[Castel]

Princess Anna, on 19 May 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

SO basically get raped by every khal and ko who decided to , remember GRRM described her as the hottest female character in the books, and she would be especially hot with her "exotic" looks. That is not a good thing for a 13 year old former khaleesi and the last of her family

Uh, I don't follow your logic. After Drogo died the khals left. She was not forced to go anywhere , she chose her path from then on.

Princess Anna, on 19 May 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

Ok if she did not do that , how should she have gone about getting the throne

Maybe she should have sold her dragons *shrug* or gone on to Pentos, or toured the free cities looking for potential allies. She could have gone to try to win the hearts and minds of people. Or at best she may have simply traded whatever goods she had for an Unsullied guard and gone to Pentos, where she now had something of a shield in case someone tried to attack her. It wouldn't help much against poison and more subtly means, but it would be something.

Or, she could lay low in Pentos until her dragons were large and then terrorise people into helping her. Loan me money and I'll be gone, simple.

There is a radical final alternative *looks around and whispers* not go after the throne at all.

Edited by Castel, 19 May 2012 - 01:50 AM.

[The Annazon]

Castel, on 19 May 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

Uh, I don't follow your logic. After Drogo died the khals left. She was not forced to go anywhere , she chose her path from then on. Maybe she should have sold her dragons *shrug* or gone on to Pentos, or toured the free cities looking for potential allies. She could have gone to try to win the hearts and minds of people. Or at best she may have simply traded whatever goods she had for an Unsullied guard and gone to Pentos, where she now had something of a shield in case someone tried to attack her. It wouldn't help much against poison and more subtly means, but it would be something. Or, she could lay low in Pentos until her dragons were large and then terrorise people into helping her. Loan me money and I'll be gone, simple. There is a radical final alternative *looks around and whispers* not go after the throne at all.

Yes she did not have to go anywhere but the dothraki are nomads they would eventually pass through that region. And there is no way she would sell her dragons thats like selling ur children. THird after all the shit she went trough how could she not fight for the throne.

[The Annazon]

FuzzyJAM, on 19 May 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:

Huh? I'm all for her travelling across the wastes with her "khalasar". I don't think anyone is against that. I'm not for her getting an army of Unsullied through treachery and then completely destroying any sense of order for an entire region with zero plans on how to put it together again - that's when she starts choosing to gain power, when her strength and people increase by about 1,000,000%. Who's to say she should sit on the Iron Throne? At that point, the only person who wants her in Westeros is an outlawed knight who has fled execution (for being a slaver, hilariously enough) and Doran (who she doesn't even know about), who wants to plunge the realm into war so he can avenge his sister's death. I'm not seeing the positives here.

ok so we agree on the first part. But let me ask u do the small folk want Stannis or the Lanister kids, or did they want Robb or Renly, or Balon , or any lord .

[danm_999]

Princess Anna, on 19 May 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

THird after all the shit she went trough how could she not fight for the throne.

Quite easily. One would think a sane person, after witnessing what happened to Drogo's khalasar and the warlocks in Qarth, would never want to get involved in dynastic politics ever again.

[The Annazon]

danm_999, on 19 May 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

Quite easily. One would think a sane person, after witnessing what happened to Drogo's khalasar and the warlocks in Qarth, would never want to get involved in dynastic politics ever again.

Its not like she has a choice by Qarth , its been made , she has people under her care , and promises she made.