159 replies to this topic

[Samalander]

Errant Bard, on 20 May 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

What do you mean by "the thruth"? That seems rather absolute a concept for something dependent on the reader's tastes.

I mean my truth. As I stated.

Larry., on 20 May 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

1) I didn't realize 4/5 was "in the middle"
2) Although I may be no "reviewer of note" (although I am occasionally paid to be one, I suppose ),
3) my review of ADWD was decidedly mixed. That may in part be because I do not consider myself to be "a fan"; .  

1) It is somewhat in the middle between the 9/10 many reviewers give and the abysmal score on Amazon.
2) No, you're not. Sorry.
3) Adding some kind of numerical value to your reviews will greatly help your readers gage your opinion of a novel.

[Larry.]

Samalander, on 20 May 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

I mean my truth. As I stated.


1) It is somewhat in the middle between the 9/10 many reviewers give and the abysmal score on Amazon.
2) No, you're not. Sorry.
3) Adding some kind of numerical value to your reviews will greatly help your readers gage your opinion of a novel.

I'd rather self-castrate myself, without anesthesia, than to assign number scores to reviews.  That cheapens things for me and I dismiss out-of-hand such "rankings" when I browse through attempts at being a Amazon/Goodreads reader commentary.  Then again, I learned to write reviews in grad school in the 1990s, so there is a bit of a bias there

[Samalander]

Larry., on 20 May 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

I'd rather self-castrate myself, without anesthesia, than to assign number scores to reviews. That cheapens things for me and I dismiss out-of-hand such "rankings" when I browse through attempts at being a Amazon/Goodreads reader commentary. Then again, I learned to write reviews in grad school in the 1990s, so there is a bit of a bias there

Fair enough, I suppose. But it is harder for review consumers.

[Larry.]

It may be, but I don't write for review consumers and likely never will (not withstanding reviews of mine that appear in print and on Amazon's Omnivoracious page).  Different audiences.

[Migey]

I agree with Larry here. While I am by no means strongly against giving scores, they tend to be inaccurate and awkward. For one thing, they are misguiding as too often they are relative to other books that are either in the same series, by the same author, or similar. So ADWD, a book which is miles ahead of many more mediocre books, may get a much lower score then a book which most people would less rather read because the latter was perhaps better relative to the authors usual work, as opposed to ADWD which many felt was dissapointing relative to the first 3 SOIAF books. Also, scores out of 10 seem to be weirdly skewed to be only between 6 and 10, with 6 (which is logically not bad as it's past the halfway mark of the ranking scale and thus could be assumed to have more redeeming features then negative ones) being generally reserved by many for terrible books, and 8 (which logically could be assumed to be amazing, perhaps let down by one or two minor flaws) used for your average, enjoyable book that may not be particuarly amazing. Since the use of this scale is so subjective it's very hard to use.

And of course, a flat out rating seems to be like a 'TL;DR' of reviews which I absolutely detest. If something is too long to read, then okay. But why should we be expected to sum it up for you? And likewise with reviews, if you want to find out how good the book is, read the goddamn review, instead of just looking for the score. The only argument against this is that perhaps they don't want the book spoiled but non spoiler reviews are abundant anyway. If one wants to find out about the book, they should read the review of it. If they can't be bothered... then, well. They obviously don't care much about the book.

Edited by Migey, 20 May 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[Narwhal]

For Americans at least, the habit of scoring even bad books above the 50% percentile of whatever grading scale is being used is likely a product of our educational grading scale.

Since a review is a type of grade, it's not surprising that the standards of the educational grading scale where anything below 70% is usually considered failing or borderline failing would transition over to reviews. For an American reader or reviewer, a 6 out of 10 is likely to be seen as a failed or at least subpar book even without dipping down to a review of 3 or 4 out of 10.

For me, since taste is subjective, the importance of a review is less the content and grading given in the review itself and more the fact that an unpaid blogger thought the book was worth taking the time to review in the first place. By itself, someone willingly spending their own time to discuss a story, strikes me as a better indicator that a book might be worth looking into than almost any score that is given.

[Procrastimancer]

Migey, on 20 May 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

And of course, a flat out rating seems to be like a 'TL;DR' of reviews which I absolutely detest.

Look at the score, read the last paragraph, and move on. Unless there is something about the review that catches my eye, this is what happens almost every time I encounter a scored review. I have tried to break the habit, but it just isn't happening.

[Galactus]

I do agree that the problem does not seem to be abysmal books, or excellent books, but rather A) Uneven ones. ("This book has an excellent plot but the characters are shite") and Mediocre ones ("This book was absolutely unemarkable.") The "I don't regret reading it but I won't remember it" type.

[IheartTesla]

I buy my books and I assume most reviewers get their books for free. So the utility of a review for me is quite limited by this fact, unless the reviewer would explicitly state he or she would pay for the book or not.

Hey, speaking of which, I havent seen too many female reviewer bloggers. Maybe we need more diversity of opinion here too, eh?

[Myshkin]

Samalander, on 20 May 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

3) Adding some kind of numerical value to your reviews will greatly help your readers gage your opinion of a novel.

This is ridiculous.  Are readers so stupid that they need a numerical score in order to understand a review?  When was the last time you really wished Michiko Kakutani would add numerical scores to her reviews?  A numerical value only serves to cheapen the review, and is a lazy shortcut for people who can't be bothered to read the whole thing.

[Caligula_K2]

Galactus, on 20 May 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

I do agree that the problem does not seem to be abysmal books, or excellent books, but rather A) Uneven ones. ("This book has an excellent plot but the characters are shite") and Mediocre ones ("This book was absolutely unemarkable.") The "I don't regret reading it but I won't remember it" type.

Which is exactly why, if reviewers are going to use scores, the idea that 6/10 or 3/5 is an abysmal score needs to go away. There are plenty more books that deserve sixes and sevens than eights and nines out there- books that are enjoyable but have major flaws, or which aren't particularly memorable.

[PaulineMRoss]

There's just the slightest hint of snobbery in some of these comments. There's nothing wrong with reviewers summarising their opinion with a numerical score or star rating if they want to. It's useful shorthand, and personally I'm always grateful for a reviewer who saves me the bother of reading a lengthy review only to find it's just a puff piece. 10/10? Again? Really?

Equally, every review is valid, if it's honest (which is the point of this thread, after all). Not everyone wants formal literary criticism, or a review that lists the author's entire published career to date before mentioning the current work, or writes at length about his/her personal life; unless it's scandalous, of course, that's always acceptable :-) . A short but sincere amateur review is far more valuable to a potential reader of a book than a more carefully crafted piece by a reviewer who's in bed with the publisher. And although 'review consumers' may not be Larry's intended audience, anyone who writes a review and then publishes it where it can be freely read will find them as part of their audience, like it or not.

[Lyanna Stark]

I normally find book reviews to be moderatly helpful at best. What's always an at least 90% guarantee is to follow the discussions on this board. After some 10 years, I know which readers I normally agree with and which people's views I can safely disregard.

Werthead, on 19 May 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

In future, I might try to finish more bad books, as, if nothing else, they do tend to lend themselves to more amusing reviews.

I am already looking forward to your Twilight review with bated breath.You know it must be done!

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 21 May 2012 - 03:24 AM.

[polishgenius]

A numerical figure to a review can be helpful if you're already familiar with the reviewer's general standards. You can't divorce if from the actual review though, it's only there to help place it in comparison to other things the reviewer has rated.

I tend to find five-point scales more useful than anything higher though purely because there seems to be less taboo about awarding actual low scores and a film or book given three stars is likely to actually be average, or not for everyone, or heavily flawed but with good bits, rather than terrible.

[Werthead]

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I buy my books and I assume most reviewers get their books for free.

Certainly don't assume this of bloggers. There was a period around 2006-08 (when the first explosion of them took place) when it felt like every blogger got review copies just by asking for them, but certainly not now. Blogs in the last couple of years have to stick around for quite some time and build up notable readerships before they can start getting review copies, as there's too many review sites that start out with good intentions and peter out after a few months.

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Hey, speaking of which, I havent seen too many female reviewer bloggers. Maybe we need more diversity of opinion here too, eh?

Then you are not looking hard enough. There are lots of female bloggers out there.

[pat5150]

Adam,

You're not getting as many review copies as in years past??? I'm on pace for about 600 in 2012. Wish it wasn't so, for I need to put these books in boxes and bring them over to local libraries...

Don't know if it's because I was an A-student in Law School, but does anyone here really believe that 6/10 is a good mark??? As a university student, anything under 80% was kind of a failure to me. A good mark for me started with 80%. So I guess I'm not as demanding with novels. An editor told me last year that an 8/10 on the Hotlist was worth way more to them than a perfect score elsewhere...

And yes, I'll stop reading anything that I feel wouldn't even get a 6/10 after 100 pages or so. There are only so many books I can read during a year and I read for pleasure. If the work is so bad that I feel like getting my scrotum tattooed sounds like a more pleasant way to spend my evening, then I'll drop it. Savaging a book might be fun sometimes, but spending hours reading crap just ain't worth it.

In the end, it's a question of trust. Find a reviewer whose style and taste in books suit you. There are so many SFF book-reviewing blogs out there that it shouldn't be difficult for you to find some that will suit your needs. And yes, there are a LOT of female bloggers out there, though many of them cover urban fantasy and paranormal romance more than the other subgenres.

Cheers,

Patrick

[cseresz.reborn]

A few remarks:

1. I have no unlimited free time.
2. I have no unlimited money.
3. Excerpts are very rare.

So, what are my choices? Amazon, Goodreads etc. + bloggers

Amazon, Goodreads: there are so many fake (by the author/author's friends/publisher/"robot aka $5") reviews that I hardly could find any reliable reviews. + Amazon has a bad habit: removing/deleting 1-2-3 stars reviews ... authors/publishers are so touchy ... (especially new SFF authors)

I don't wanna mention the hostile reviews: http://www.guardian....art-of-comments (By the way, Robert Service is the bigger idiot.)

So, I'd like to trust bloggers but the constant praising is not good at all.

Spoiler

Let's see an example: I really love R. A. Salvatore's works (I have every Drizzt book up to The Ghost King in hardcover) but I will never give any of these books more than 1-1,5 stars. Never.

You could say: if you love it then give it 4-5 stars! OK, The Ghost King has 4 stars. But what should I do with ACOK or FoH? Do I give them 30 stars or 58 stars?

[JamieM]

Werthead, on 21 May 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Then you are not looking hard enough. There are lots of female bloggers out there.

I liked Sandstorm reviews a lot, it was a shame it didn't continue...

pat5150, on 21 May 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

Don't know if it's because I was an A-student in Law School

And the Rick Martel award for arrogance goes to:

Edited by JamieM, 21 May 2012 - 08:02 AM.

[JamieM]

Winking smiley face, obvs.

[Werthead]

A note on review copies:

The first time you get free books through the door, it's certainly cool. You get books you didn't have to pay for! Awesome. Maybe initially, for the first few weeks it happens, you might feel positively inclined towards publishers for doing this.

Then you realise that publishers deliberately print dozens of review copies per book and send them out to everyone automatically on a list. It's somewhat impersonal, and you are certainly being treated as a cog in the marketing machine. The reason that your negative reviews are not particularly important to the publisher is that it will be assumed that your good reviews will more than balance them out (and if just 2 people buy a book on the strength of your review, the publisher is already quids in). Sometimes you will get a personalised review copy, perhaps with a note from an editor or author suggesting they thought of you specially for that book because of your interests, or your previous appreciation for the author. That's nice and to be appreciated, but I've had those before and given the book a negative or medicore review and not had any problems.

Another interesting factoid: you are highly unlikely to get review copies of one of the Big Fantasy Authors who are around and you may be eagerly following. If you've sold millions upon millions of copies of your books, you don't need bloggers. I've never received a Wheel of Time review copy. The one Malazan review copy I got (Toll the Hounds, IIRC) entailed a lot of work involving recommendations from other bloggers so I was discouraged from doing that again (and was happy to pay out money for them). Another big-selling author (not a fantasy one) wanted me to have a review copy of his latest book so sent me one of his own stock, since the publisher was refusing to send out copies. Sometimes you also get authors who are big enough that ARCs aren't even published for them, so you might get a complimentary copy of the hardcover in the mail, sometimes weeks after it comes out and sometimes long after you've already gone out and bought a copy yourself.

Getting review copies is interesting and very occasionally cool, but ultimately it is not a transaction in return for automatic positive press. If you believe it is (cough Harriet Klausner), you really should not be reviewing anything.

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You're not getting as many review copies as in years past???

No. Publishers realised I wasn't likely to review urban fantasy (or rather that subset of urban fantasy with sexy women, men and vampires on the front cover) so stopped sending me books in that genre, which wiped out about 75% of my incoming review copies in one stroke. The dominance of urban fantasy by volume in the whole SFF genre is something that you really appreciate when you're shipping boxloads of them out of your front door.

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I'm on pace for about 600 in 2012. Wish it wasn't so, for I need to put these books in boxes and bring them over to local libraries...

I just got rid of 150 books (mostly review copies) down the charity shop, so that's exactly why I'm glad the number of incoming books has now dropped off to something much more bearable (I'd have to count, but I believe it was about 50 for the entirety of 2011, as compared to about 200 apiece in 2009 and 2010; I was never on American mailing lists so I never got as many as North American-based bloggers).

Quote

As a university student, anything under 80% was kind of a failure to me.

Universities have a purpose in stamping out things are that are even just 'okay' or even 'just good' to ensure only the very best people get the very best results. For reviewing I don't think there's a need to be that draconian.

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And the Rick Martel award for arrogance goes to:

Given their radically different styles of reviewing, it was interesting that both Larry and Pat said the exact same thing in this thread