62 replies to this topic

[Ser Amoc]

First, I just want to point out what I believe to be true. Lyanna went with Rhaegar under her own will and they very much had deep feelings for each other. I think most other people here subscribe to that too. I'm also inclined to believe R+L=J.

So that brings us to the ToJ. At this point, Rhaegar has been slain by Robert. Ned somehow hears where Lyanna is. It seems like Ashara Dayne may have tipped him off, although this is not confirmed.

Here's the blurry part.

If Lyanna willingly went with Rhaegar and willingly had a child with him, what are the Kingsguard doing fighting Ned Stark and his men at the ToJ?

This is the only part that doesn't add up to me. I mean, what are the Kingsguard defending? Obviously, Ned wasn't there to cause harm to Lyanna. So what was this fight over? Rhaegar is already dead at this point. Aerys is dead. Robert's Rebellion is all but over.

Remember, I'm assuming Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar and they consentually had a child together. I'm not assuming they were married, although I'm not ruling that possiblity out either.

My point is just why did the Kingsguard fight Ned and his men? That just doesn't make sense. All around, they (both Ned and his men and the Kingsguard) were reputadly men of honor, at least the ones we have specific details about. So just what was the fight at the ToJ over, considering the timeline? Like I said, Ned obviously wasn't there to harm Lyanna.

Basically, if everything else we assume that lends to R+J=L is true, it seems the fight at the ToJ was unnecessary. Unless, of course, there are facts we just don't know yet, which is probable.

The only logical reason I can think of is that the Kingsguard were just following their orders and not letting anyone at all in the ToJ regardless of the situation. This just doesn't seem to make sense though and considering that the men they answer to were dead at this point and Ned obviously was not a threat to the person they were guarding in the tower, it just doesn't add up for me.

I'd love to hear any thoughts on why the ToJ showdown happened. Also, any corrections to my train of thought or incorrect references to the timeline would be much appreciated!

[Dr. Pepper]

The Kingsguard were presumably ordered to protect Lyanna and the heir.  That means also to protect them from being taken.  Ned probably wasn't there to kill Lyanna, but I think he was definitely there with the expectation that he would be taking her with him.  Ned tells the Kingsguard present that their king is dead, the prince Rhaegar is dead and Rhaegars children are dead.  I think he also tells them that Robert is now king and he also offers them the chance to go to Viserys.  Since they refuse to leave, the idea is that they are now protecting the baby king.  Again, that means protecting him from being taken, even if the person wanting to do the taking is the baby's uncle.  So....showdown.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It is the shitty sense of honor the Kingsguard has. They can't give up and swear fealty to Robert. They can't run and hide beyond the Narrow Sea and leave the rightful heir alone. They can't go into hiding.
And Ned can't let them raise an rebellion in Jons name as that would doom him.
The only thing the Kingsguard can do at this point is die. And they can't commit suicide thanks to their honor again.

[Ser Amoc]

I'm a little blurry on the timeline, but by the time the ToJ happened, did Ned and Robert have their little falling out over Robert's approval of Aegon and Rhaenys' murders?

I just don't see how Ned and the KG couldn't come to some sort of a more reasonable outcome that didn't result in the needless deaths of everyone. I mean, did the KG just expect Lyanna and her child to stay locked up in the ToJ forever. Ned was obviously there to help the situation.

Now if he knew immediately that Jon Snow was the next Targaryen heir and his fallout with Robert already happened, Ned may have wanted to prevent Robert from learning about this. It seems Robert's world is completely fabricated in his mind to help him cope with the fact that Lyanna didn't love him in return because of his own inadequacies as a man (namely, not being the most faithful person one could hope for in a spouse). So Jon Snow is the evidence that would bring Robert's false, biased beliefs crumbling down.

I'm curious as to what happened and in what order at the ToJ too. Did Ned not get to see Lyanna or know she had a child until after the showdown with the KG? That's what I'm assuming at this point.

I just don't like resigning the showdown's occurrence to the KG's stubbornness. I'm sure they knew their master, his heir, and his heir's heir were dead. Maybe they just didn't want to work with Ned because he was alligned with Robert during the rebellion. Still, if Jon Snow was the true heir at this point, I don't see how pointlessly dying helps to serve him. And at this point in time, Jon Snow is their master, as Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon are all dead. Or in Aegon's case, if YG is Aegon, presumed dead.

It just seems to me that maybe there is a big piece of information we're missing or maybe some of our key assumptions are just flat out wrong.

Edited by Ser Amoc, 19 May 2012 - 08:09 AM.

[Toccs]

Well basically Ned was on his way home after just getting a new high ranking government job for the new regime, but first he had to pick up his sister from her date.   When he got there he encountered several upper middle management personnel of the government.  Ned not being the sort of guy to leave work behind for the weekend and wait till Monday, decided to call them out on their recent poor performance reviews naming several times and places where they had failed to attend.  When all they offered was vaguely aggressive excuses, Ned realized that they were not the kind of staff fit for service in the new government and so he terminated their contracts.

Edited by Toccs, 19 May 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[DarkSnow]

I suspect they were protecting Lyanna and Jon, an order given by Rhaegar. After the KG hear of the death of Rhaegar's other children, they probably didn't know Neds role in the murder after all he is very loyal to Robert. Ned's honor is a usual standard in Westeros they couldn't trust him.

[rmanoj]

DarkSnow, on 19 May 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

I suspect they were protecting Lyanna and Jon, an order given by Rhaegar. After the KG hear of the death of Rhaegar's other children, they probably didn't know Neds role in the murder after all he is very loyal to Robert. Ned's honor is a usual standard in Westeros they couldn't trust him.

But surely Lyanna would have told them that Ned would never let her come to harm?

[DarkSnow]

We don't know that she was even told, if she was, would the KG disobey Rhaegar for Lyanna Or how long after the ToJ did she die? she might of been in labor. Rhaegar believed that Jon would be AA so protecting him was critical for the realm.

[Ser Amoc]

DarkSnow, on 19 May 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

I suspect they were protecting Lyanna and Jon, an order given by Rhaegar. After the KG hear of the death of Rhaegar's other children, they probably didn't know Neds role in the murder after all he is very loyal to Robert. Ned's honor is a usual standard in Westeros they couldn't trust him.

That's a good point. Especially if the showdown occurred before Ned got to see Lyanna and what condition she was in. I still have to believe Ned telling them what was going on. And it still seems strange for the KG to just follow the order of keeping Lyanna and her new child locked up in the ToJ. I mean, did they just plan on leaving her and her child locked in there with no outside contact to the rest of the world until they died? That just seems silly.

rmanoj, on 19 May 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

But surely Lyanna would have told them that Ned would never let her come to harm?

I wonder if Lyanna knew Ned arrived before the showdown happened. That's a good point though.

I'm sure Ned had to have told the Kingsguard he wasn't there to harm Lyanna and her child. But like I said, maybe the KG didn't tell Ned she had a child yet and Ned didn't find out until after the showdown with the KG.

With the facts we have, it just seems like the KG were being stubborn. I like the idea that the KG's king, heir, and heir's heir were killed by the rebellion, and Ned was on the side of the rebels, so they just assumed he was there to finish off all the Targs. But still, couldn't Ned talk some sense into them? Like I said, I understand the KG are unrelenting towards their duty, but they can't be that dense to logic, can they? Ned was obviously there to help, and being known as a man of honor, I have a hard time believing the KG wouldn't listen to Ned at all.

Edited by Ser Amoc, 19 May 2012 - 08:31 AM.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The Kingsguard oath compels them to place little Jon Targaryen on the Iron Throne at all costs. The only one who could solve that problem is Jon Targaryen himself and since newborn babes aren't exactly the most outspoken, that would need to wait a few years.
That in turn would put Jon squarely against Bob.
In that case, Ned has three choices:
- Arrest Jon and let Bob kill him, putting down the KG in the process
- Throw the North behind Jon and fight a one against five civil war against Bob, whom he had just placed on the throne, and all his comrades, friends and relatives
- Hide Jon, against the expressed duty of the KG and thus needing to kill them
Do you realize why I call the KG sense of honor shitty?

[Ser Amoc]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 19 May 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

- Hide Jon, against the expressed duty of the KG and thus needing to kill them
Do you realize why I call the KG sense of honor shitty?

Yeah, I hear that. There are plenty of examples of KG just blindly following orders without actually thinking about what they entail.

I think the "hiding Jon" aspect is probably dead on. But if that is the case, why couldn't Ned and the KG work together on that? It seems like the KG were already hiding him out anyway, since, like you pointed out, he was too young to do anything at this point. Ned obviously would want to protect his kin from Robert's wrath, a man he just had a falling out with. The KG obviously want to protect Jon, their new master.

So why did they decide to fight to the death instead of formulating a plan where their obviously aligned intrestests could work together? That's the part that just doesn't add up for me.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Their interests aren't aligned. The KG wants King Jon Targaryen the First of his name. Ned wants his sister and his nephew alive and happy. In the current situation with Bob on the Iron Throne, these goals are mutually exclusive.

Furthermore, even if the KG approved of Ned hiding Jon, they can't go into hiding with him. It would stand out. They also can't abandon him and go home. Again the honor. Furthermore, the more witnesses, the more likely a secret is to leak.
One could even speculate whether the KG commited suicide by Northmen. And coincidentally reduced the number of witnesses even further.

[jon rr stark]

The KG loyalty is the the king only. If I have the succession correct Jon is the king from the information they had from Ned. So unless Ned was going to put Jon on the throne they had no option but to defeat Ned. However the puzzling bit is why were they waiting there in the first place. The only reasonable explaination I can see is that Lyanna was in labour and it was too dangerous to risk moving her. After all to the KG its the baby thats important not the mother. Whether they had a plan after than is anyones guess. The orders they would have been left with from Rheagar would assume that Rheagar would be returning I doubt if they had a plan B. From what we know Rheagar said to Jamie was that there would be changes when he returned from the trident. They did afterall have the greater numbers and Rheagar was no mean fighter. The turning point in the battle was the fight with Robert when Rheagar died. So honour and duty both play a part. The KG may be great fighters but no one said they were very smart. They were in an unforseen situation given both they and Rheagar were arrogant enough to assume they would win. Indeed the KG probably assumed they would win the fight with Ned and his companions which they nearly did.
To me as well as this puzzle perhaps the more intriguing point is why Ned only turned up with his seven trusted companions when he had an army at his command. He must have known what he was going to find and knew Lyanna was having a baby but had to keep it secret. The KG might have guessed this as well. After all if he did turn up with an army the KG would not have harmed Lyanna in labour or the king - Jon.

[Ser Amoc]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 19 May 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

suicide by Northmen.

This made me laugh pretty good.

I think they had mutual interests in that they wanted to protect Lyanna and the baby. However, like I said, we don't really know the order of events and what Ned knew specifically heading into the showdown.

I mean, did Ned show up and fight the KG without knowing Lyanna had a child. Did she make her promise to him before the fight with the KG and maybe this promise involved something that went against what the KG were ordered to do? For example, maybe she told Ned that she wanted Jon to just live life in Winterfell and never take the Iron Throne, which the KG which obviously be opposed to. I suspect that Ned didn't see Lyanna until after the battle with the KG though.

But still, it makes me wonder why they couldn't come to a better agreement. I think Ned obviously realized that Robert would never recognize or concede to Jon and in all likelihood probably would have wanted to kill him. Ned probably didn't want to be in that position between Robert, who was like a brother to him, and Jon, who is actually his kin, so hiding Jon would be the easiest option.

Although the wording is funny (suicide by Northmen... awesome!), I like the idea that the KG purposely let Ned kill them to possibly help hide Jon and reduce the witness head count.

I just really want to know the order of events and details leading up to this showdown, which I'm sure everyone else does too.

[Ser Amoc]

jon rr stark, on 19 May 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

The KG loyalty is the the king only. If I have the succession correct Jon is the king from the information they had from Ned. So unless Ned was going to put Jon on the throne they had no option but to defeat Ned.

The weird thing about these KG specifically is that they're already going against orders anyway. Technically, shouldn't they have always been with Aerys? He's the king, and considering the course of events and how Aerys' was growing increasingly paranoid of Rhaegar, I doubt Aerys commanded them to go protect Rhaegar while on his secret love affair.

I do think they expected Rhaegar to return from the Trident. That's where I get confused. So now they're just waiting at the ToJ without a next move and Ned shows up. I said earlier that I think they easily should've recognized their mutual interests at this point with Ned, which would basically be the immediate protection and preservation of Jon. I do agree that the KG had to be thinking about placing Jon on the Iron Throne. But they would have been smart enough to know that this would have taken some time and planning. Obviously, Robert had laid claim to the throne at this point, so a few KG weren't going to just storm King's Landing and place Jon on the throne. KG are dutiful to a fault, but they're not that dumb. They would have recognized that to put Jon on the throne would have taken some time.

Maybe these KG didn't want to place Jon on the Iron Throne though. Like I said, they weren't protecting Aerys anyway. Maybe they were more concerned with helping Jon fulfill the AA prophecy, which may not have anything to do with ascending the Iron Throne.

Now would Ned have been opposed to this? Was this even discussed between Ned and the KG before their fateful showdown? There's just something that hasn't been revealed to us yet I think that goes a little deeper than what GRRM is letting on, although I don't have a clue.

I just think it goes deeper than Ned shows up and blind honor and duty forces the KG to fight him. Things are never that simple in this series.

Edited by Ser Amoc, 19 May 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[Apple Martini]

Ser Amoc, on 19 May 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

The weird thing about these KG specifically is that they're already going against orders anyway. Technically, shouldn't they have always been with Aerys? He's the king, and considering the course of events and how Aerys' was growing increasingly paranoid of Rhaegar, I doubt Aerys commanded them to go protect Rhaegar while on his secret love affair.

Not necessarily. A Kingsguard was with Aerys the whole time — Jaime. If they were away from King's Landing and received an order from Rhaegar to protect Lyanna, absent a trumping order from Aerys, they would follow that order.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Ser Amoc, on 19 May 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

The weird thing about these KG specifically is that they're already going against orders anyway. Technically, shouldn't they have always been with Aerys? He's the king, and considering the course of events and how Aerys' was growing increasingly paranoid of Rhaegar, I doubt Aerys commanded them to go protect Rhaegar while on his secret love affair.

Depends. Aerys was paranoid, but he ordered Rhaegar to assume command of the army against the Rebellion. That means the KG included in the army (Lewyn Martell, Barristan the Bold and the third one) are definitely under Rhaegars command.
Arthur Dayne may have been Rhaegars personal bodyguard issued by Aerys from years ago and thus under his command. Gerold Hightower and Oswell Whent were ordered to search for Rhaegar and have him assume command. Depending on the wording, that puts them under Rhaegars authority, especially if they want to interpret it that way.
Unless Aerys specifically commanded otherwise (and reached them), or Rhaegar was openly treasonous, that would put the entire Kingsguard except Jaime under his command.

[TheMadHuntsman]

Everybody lived! Howland Reed is hiding them all in Greywater Watch!

[Ser Amoc]

Apple Martini, on 19 May 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Not necessarily. A Kingsguard was with Aerys the whole time — Jaime. If they were away from King's Landing and received an order from Rhaegar to protect Lyanna, absent a trumping order from Aerys, they would follow that order.

Bright Blue Eyes, on 19 May 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Depends. Aerys was paranoid, but he ordered Rhaegar to assume command of the army against the Rebellion. That means the KG included in the army (Lewyn Martell, Barristan the Bold and the third one) are definitely under Rhaegars command. Arthur Dayne may have been Rhaegars personal bodyguard issued by Aerys from years ago and thus under his command. Gerold Hightower and Oswell Whent were ordered to search for Rhaegar and have him assume command. Depending on the wording, that puts them under Rhaegars authority, especially if they want to interpret it that way. Unless Aerys specifically commanded otherwise (and reached them), or Rhaegar was openly treasonous, that would put the entire Kingsguard except Jaime under his command.

Thanks for pointing that out.  I think it's safe to assume that all of the KG were questioning Aerys' mental stability near the end anyway, so following Rhaegar isn't a stretch at all. Dayne was also pretty much best buds with Rhaegar too, right?

I think that if these men were truly following Rhaegar and truly believed in him, then they probably bought into the whole prince that was promised prophecy. Assuming they were aware of this, maybe their orders included seeing it through.

I like Bright Blue Eyes idea that they were complicit in their deaths maybe as a means to hide Jon until the time was right. But that sort of insinuates Ned going along with the prophecy, as the KG aren't just going to die and let Ned do what he wants.

[Theo1]

From Ned's dream, they KG and his men met outside the TofJ.  The conventional wisdom is that there was the fight, then Ned made the promise to protect Jon.  We know there was a fight, we know there was a promise.  But, until we get a clear account, there is no certainty to the order of events.  To the OPs point, couldn't there be some rational conversation, Ned enters, makes a promise that the KG cannot accept.  Motivation for a fight is lit, and there is an epic battle.  Other than the order, and what I will admit are reasonable inferences from the text, I think that the contrarian theory of promise first, epic fight second makes some sense.