62 replies to this topic

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

This topic always baffles me.  The fight really only makes sense if you consider the KG to be mindless zombies.  I don't see why they wouldn't try to get Ned to support Jon's claim.

However, hasn't GRRM said that the dreams Ned has under the influence of milk of the poppy should be taken with a grain of salt?  Meaning they might not be completely true or some key parts might have been left out?

This makes sense to me because it seems that Ned has a very selective memory and subconscious when it comes to anything that might be dishonorable.  The biggest example being that he never thinks to himself, "Boy raising my sister's royal son as my own bastard is really causing me problems".  There are also plenty of other examples: he never remembers specifically killing any of the KG, he never remembers bringing Dawn to Starfall(we get this from Cat's POV), he never remembers the actual words Lyanna made him promise, he doesn't recall having feelings for Ashara or seeing the Knight of the Laughing Tree.  I'm sure there are plenty more.  My only explanations for these things are that

1. these things never happened and the narrators who gave us this information are unreliable
2. Ned remembers only what he wants to remember

I tend to lean towards number 2

[kg1982]

Quote

This topic always baffles me. The fight really only makes sense if you consider the KG to be mindless zombies. I don't see why they wouldn't try to get Ned to support Jon's claim.

Not really..  First, the Kingsguard has no way of knowing if Robert's righthand man would have been willing to protect Jon.  Yes, he is an honorable guy and wouldn't harm his nephew, but he could have deluded himself into believing that Robert would have been totally okay with Jon even if he knew the truth.  (And considering some of the stuff that goes down in GOT, they wouldn't be that far off.)  Second, there was absolutely no way that Ned was going to declare for his nephew and plunge the North into another civil war...  And now it ends.

[Howling Mad]

Its possible that the KG's at the ToJ  told Ned of their duty to protect the Queen regent and the soon-to-be newborn King.  Although there no textual evidence for this had the KG shared this tidbit it would help to explain the situation to all involved of why the KG cannot flee/renounce and why Ned and his men have to fight their way through to Lyanna.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

kg1982, on 19 May 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Not really..  First, the Kingsguard has no way of knowing if Robert's righthand man would have been willing to protect Jon.  Yes, he is an honorable guy and wouldn't harm his nephew, but he could have deluded himself into believing that Robert would have been totally okay with Jon even if he knew the truth.  (And considering some of the stuff that goes down in GOT, they wouldn't be that far off.)  Second, there was absolutely no way that Ned was going to declare for his nephew and plunge the North into another civil war...  And now it ends.

I totally agree with you that Ned would never press Jon's claim and that the KG had no reason to trust Ned.  I'm baffled that they didn't at least try though.  In Ned's dream, the KG are confrontational from the get go.  Ned is the only high lord left with family ties to the new king(Jon) which is why I would think Ned would be the best person to seek support from.  If the KG isn't fleeing with Jon and isn't looking for support for Jon, then what exactly are they doing?  If Ned's memory is selective like I said above, then its possible he only remembers the KG being confrontational when in fact, there was more to it.

Edited by MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, 19 May 2012 - 12:17 PM.

[NomadicDirewolf]

well the kingsguard were probably ordered to protect lyanna(and her child if she did indeed have one) at any rate, it seems the only option to the honourable knights of the kingsguard now that all the targs are gone, they can hardly surrender or just go back to their lives as they say the kg doesnt run away, so the only honourable thing to do would be to die completing the final orders the targs gave them

[Lordtoofat2sitAthrone]

The whole scene is just so awesome and tragic at the same time.  They knew they were going to die, yet they tried anyway to defend the heir.  It's the whole standoff that's so great, they are both talking, they all know what's gonna happen, and yet they go through with it anyway.  So unlike Rob's KG,  Joff's and Tommen's.

It reminds me how badly I can't wait for GRRM to reveal what really happened there, to fans who have never been to a fan site.  Off topic, but my dad just finished Adwd and it's really funny talking to him.  He  has built himself this whole world, in his head where, Eddard and Robb are both a single plot device away from revival.  Needless to say Jon's fate has broken him.

[corbon]

MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, on 19 May 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

I'm baffled that they didn't at least try though. In Ned's dream, the KG are confrontational from the get go.

Its very very simple.

3KG protecting the baby king at an isolated tower.

Up rides a small party led by the 2ic of the rebel army that just murdered the baby kings infant brothers and sisters.

There is nothing to talk about. They swore an oath, they must protect the king. There is no way they can possibly let any of the 'bad guys' into the tower. Talking more than they do is pointless - there is no way they can possibly trust the life of the Targaryen baby king with Ned Stark, no matter how honourable. He has his own oaths and loyalties, and has demonstrated the capability to murder baby royals already. 'Forting up' is pointless, even assuming its defensible, as that will just leave the rebels the opportunity to get enough men and kit to guarantee victory. The only option is to come out, fight, and win.
And they nearly succeeded

Put aside 'reader' knowledge.
Its a civil war. Ned Stark is nothing to them but a junior, unknown, second son elevated to being a great lord in his youth, who has been a major enemy commander and led the rebel troops into KL where the royal babies were murdered, therefore assumably with his complicity.
Lyanna being his sister is irrelevant. In civil wars people from the same family can fight on opposing sides. Heck, Robert Baratheon is a cousin of Rhaegar Targaryen.
The KG cannot risk the life of the king on the trust of this man. Utterly unthinkable, even if they suspect he could be trusted.
They swore an oath. They will defend the king from his enemies even if it cost their lives. Ned Stark is the kings enemy, conplicit in the murder of the kings elder brother and sister.

[alienarea]

Scenario: The three KG are at the ToJ to protect Lyanna about to give birth. But Lyanna miscarries and there is no heir (bed of blood - we don't know if Lyanna was pregnant at all and if she was for how long). Along comes Ned with six comrades. The kingsguard has two options:

1) surrender
2) fight

Given their reputation they had nothing to lose and the odds winning the fight probably looked better than surrendering and being sentenced to death they chose to fight. And lost.

Then Ned finds Lyanna dying, and she has the stubborn Stark honor thing as well: "Promise me, Ned. Don't tell Robert that I went with Rhaegar voluntarily and was pregnant. We must keep the family honor."

[taipan]

Why would they be sentenced to death?

Edited by taipan, 20 May 2012 - 05:58 AM.

[alienarea]

taipan, on 20 May 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

Why would they be sentenced to death?

Robert was in love with Lyanna and is the new king. The three KG were at the ToJ were Lyanna died. Also, they might expect Ned wanting revenge for the deaths of his father and brother. Fighting three versus seven looks like a better chance as surrendering and accepting a verdict.

[taipan]

Selmy was pardoned by Robert. I see no reason why he wold not have pardoned these three as well.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

corbon, on 20 May 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

And they nearly succeeded

And if they did, then what?

[Sapphire]

Both factions wanted the safety of Lyanna and baby Jon, but they surely differed in wanting Jon on the throne. Ned is part of the new regime and has sworn fealty to Robert. At best he can insure his sister and nephew won't come to harm, but the KG are duty bound to see their new king allowed his birth right or die trying. Westerosi and their bloody oaths.

[Ursa]

corbon, on 20 May 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:

Put aside 'reader' knowledge. Its a civil war. Ned Stark is nothing to them but a junior, unknown, second son elevated to being a great lord in his youth, who has been a major enemy commander and led the rebel troops into KL where the royal babies were murdered, therefore assumably with his complicity. Lyanna being his sister is irrelevant. In civil wars people from the same family can fight on opposing sides. Heck, Robert Baratheon is a cousin of Rhaegar Targaryen. The KG cannot risk the life of the king on the trust of this man. Utterly unthinkable, even if they suspect he could be trusted. They swore an oath. They will defend the king from his enemies even if it cost their lives. Ned Stark is the kings enemy, conplicit in the murder of the kings elder brother and sister.

This is the best explanation for the whole situation that I've seen so far. We know that Ned was too honorable to kill a child - did anyone else? Who, at that time, knew how very angry Ned was at Robert for his views towards the murder of Elia and her children?
Even years later, people who know that Eddard Stark is one of the most honorable and trustworthy man in Westeros are still surprised by his actions - they expect him to behave just like they do.
So why in the seven hells would the KG let the best friend of the man who led a rebellion and killed their prince anywhere near the ToJ - no matter who he was.
The showdown had to happen.

As for why the 3 KG were just hanging around the ToJ, I suspect they did plan to leave once things went to hell after the Battle of the Trident, but that Lyanna was far too pregnant to travel, so they stayed, assuming that no one would find them and that they would have time to sneak away once Jon was born.  But then something went wrong - either Ned simply found them too soon, or Lyanna had a difficult delivery - and the rest we know, more or less.

[Apple Martini]

taipan, on 20 May 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Selmy was pardoned by Robert. I see no reason why he wold not have pardoned these three as well.

Selmy was wounded and help from Robert saved his life. I highly doubt the three at the Tower would have gone so quietly.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Shouldn't the Kingsguard know that the entire rebellion was justified though? Like even though their vows require them to fight for the Targs, realistically they would know that the rebels are in the right?

[taipan]

@Apple, the point is why would they have feared execution if they bent the knee?

[Lady Hodor]

They probably didn't know Rhaegar was dead yet. And they had no reason to believe Ned's word on it, their enemy.

[kg1982]

MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, on 20 May 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Shouldn't the Kingsguard know that the entire rebellion was justified though? Like even though their vows require them to fight for the Targs, realistically they would know that the rebels are in the right?

All the Kingsguard at the TOJ were in on whatever Rhaegar was planning for his father, which was probably calling a Great Council and having Aerys declared unfit to rule.

[jblair]

MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, on 20 May 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Shouldn't the Kingsguard know that the entire rebellion was justified though? Like even though their vows require them to fight for the Targs, realistically they would know that the rebels are in the right?

Was it justified, in its entirety? While Aerys obviously had to go, there are few people in the Realm who would have had a problem with Rhaegar taking over. And before the rebellion, Rhaegar was taking steps to eliminate Aerys' rule anyway. Honorable Ned sure had some interesting chums - a hot-headed brother with incorrect facts raging incoherently outside his liege's castle and an alcoholic, whoring king-to-be with no problem implicitly approving of child-slaughter. And this is who is running the realm now? In what universe is this better than a Rhaegar rule?