62 replies to this topic

[Sapphire]

MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, on 20 May 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Shouldn't the Kingsguard know that the entire rebellion was justified though? Like even though their vows require them to fight for the Targs, realistically they would know that the rebels are in the right?

Oh, I'm sure they knew full well that Aerys had done something incredibly stupid and crazy and that the Starks had been wronged. However KG are meant to serve and protect not judge.

taipan, on 20 May 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

@Apple, the point is why would they have feared execution if they bent the knee?

Would Robert be willing to pardon Arthur Dayne, Rhaegar's best bud and likely conspirator? If he got it in his head that they were keeping Lyanna hostage and caused her death, then the three KG were as good as dead.

[jon rr stark]

The way the KG spoke to Ned seemed to indicate they did not realy want to live beyond Rheagar anyway. There was going to be a fight regardless one last hurrah. Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the KG waiting when Ned rode up. Maybe with Rhaegar gone whatever future plan he had involving Jon didn't matter, eg the three heads of the dragon, by all accounts the other two heads were dead so the prophecy couldn't be fulfilled. They had nothing to live for, their prince dead, the three headed dragon dead. whatever went on I think it was all to do with prophecy and so far no one has managed to correctly interpret it correctly.

[taipan]

Yes, they were waiting, and the implication in Ned's dream was that they were aware of what had transpired at the Trident.

[Teal'c]

Ser Amoc, on 19 May 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

First, I just want to point out what I believe to be true. Lyanna went with Rhaegar under her own will and they very much had deep feelings for each other. I think most other people here subscribe to that too. I'm also inclined to believe R+L=J. So that brings us to the ToJ. At this point, Rhaegar has been slain by Robert. Ned somehow hears where Lyanna is. It seems like Ashara Dayne may have tipped him off, although this is not confirmed. Here's the blurry part. If Lyanna willingly went with Rhaegar and willingly had a child with him, what are the Kingsguard doing fighting Ned Stark and his men at the ToJ? This is the only part that doesn't add up to me. I mean, what are the Kingsguard defending? Obviously, Ned wasn't there to cause harm to Lyanna. So what was this fight over? Rhaegar is already dead at this point. Aerys is dead. Robert's Rebellion is all but over. Remember, I'm assuming Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar and they consentually had a child together. I'm not assuming they were married, although I'm not ruling that possiblity out either. My point is just why did the Kingsguard fight Ned and his men? That just doesn't make sense. All around, they (both Ned and his men and the Kingsguard) were reputadly men of honor, at least the ones we have specific details about. So just what was the fight at the ToJ over, considering the timeline? Like I said, Ned obviously wasn't there to harm Lyanna. Basically, if everything else we assume that lends to R+J=L is true, it seems the fight at the ToJ was unnecessary. Unless, of course, there are facts we just don't know yet, which is probable. The only logical reason I can think of is that the Kingsguard were just following their orders and not letting anyone at all in the ToJ regardless of the situation. This just doesn't seem to make sense though and considering that the men they answer to were dead at this point and Ned obviously was not a threat to the person they were guarding in the tower, it just doesn't add up for me. I'd love to hear any thoughts on why the ToJ showdown happened. Also, any corrections to my train of thought or incorrect references to the timeline would be much appreciated!

Lyanna herself did not know that Ned was not a threat to Jon until she had the promise from him. She was afraid, she asked him for a promise, he granted it, and then she was not afraid. This would imply that, for Lyanna herself, Ned's agreement to protect Jon from Robert was NOT a foregone conclusion.

Edited by Teal'c, 20 May 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

jblair, on 20 May 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Was it justified, in its entirety? While Aerys obviously had to go, there are few people in the Realm who would have had a problem with Rhaegar taking over. And before the rebellion, Rhaegar was taking steps to eliminate Aerys' rule anyway. Honorable Ned sure had some interesting chums - a hot-headed brother with incorrect facts raging incoherently outside his liege's castle and an alcoholic, whoring king-to-be with no problem implicitly approving of child-slaughter. And this is who is running the realm now? In what universe is this better than a Rhaegar rule?

Rhaegar made a huge mistake by not declaring his intentions with Lyanna so as far as anyone knows, Lyanna, at best has been dishonored and brought shame to her hourse, or at worst has being raped and held against her will.  And then of course Rhaegar led his father's army at the Trident, both of which are dumb moves if he wanted to call a Great Council and get the high lords to declare him king over Aerys.  If Rhaegar had been up front about Lyanna from the start, Ned and Jon Arryn would most likely have understood.  Robert would have been pissed but who cares about that.  And then Rhaegar, along with Ned, Arryn and maybe Robert could have gotten the high lords together and got Aerys out of office.  In short, it's Rhaegar's fault that he died.

But none of this explains what the KG has to gain from killing Ned, the only high lord who might possibly help Jon, or what there plan for Jon might be.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

jon rr stark, on 20 May 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

The way the KG spoke to Ned seemed to indicate they did not realy want to live beyond Rheagar anyway. There was going to be a fight regardless one last hurrah. Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the KG waiting when Ned rode up. Maybe with Rhaegar gone whatever future plan he had involving Jon didn't matter, eg the three heads of the dragon, by all accounts the other two heads were dead so the prophecy couldn't be fulfilled. They had nothing to live for, their prince dead, the three headed dragon dead. whatever went on I think it was all to do with prophecy and so far no one has managed to correctly interpret it correctly.

If the exchange went down exactly the way it did in Ned's milk of the poppy dream, then I think this is the best explanation.

ETA: However, it would be pretty cynical of them to kill five northmen in the fight and nearly kill Ned if not for Howland Reed if their intentions all along were to die.

Edited by MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, 20 May 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[jon rr stark]

MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, on 20 May 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

If the exchange went down exactly the way it did in Ned's milk of the poppy dream, then I think this is the best explanation. ETA: However, it would be pretty cynical of them to kill five northmen in the fight and nearly kill Ned if not for Howland Reed if their intentions all along were to die.

A fight is a fight they could only give it their all, if one survived there are plenty of other northmen around to take on. I think they all knew whatever the outcome that this was going to be a serious fight, all the excitment and glory of a tourney but for keeps. Remember these men lived to fight, death held no fear for the likes of these. And if you are going to die who better to lose to than the man who brought down a kingdom, glory even in defeat.

[Budj]

I think plan A was probably defeat Ned and then make a long term plan to get Jon on the throne when he got older as that was their duty.  Plan B was to hopefully leave as few witnesses as possible and ensure Jon didn't share the fate of his half siblings.  I think there was a reason Ned was the one contacted (who contacted him and by what motivation is still unknown)...which leans towards plan B (which is the only plan Lyanna cared about) which was just making sure her son lived on.

It was the KG duty to make sure Jon sat the throne or die trying - they died trying...they knew they had no future with the "new government" so they only had those two options...

Part of me wonders if Lyanna actually killed herself when Ned arrived so that Jon could live incognito...birthing Jon right when Ned arrived seems too coincidental to me and the scene was described as bloody (slit wrists perhaps)....perhaps with the death of the KG and the end of the rebellion Lyanna chose her life for her son to live a safer existence.

[Ygrain]

Budj, on 20 May 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

Part of me wonders if Lyanna actually killed herself when Ned arrived so that Jon could live incognito...birthing Jon right when Ned arrived seems too coincidental to me and the scene was described as bloody (slit wrists perhaps)....perhaps with the death of the KG and the end of the rebellion Lyanna chose her life for her son to live a safer existence.

If she had died right after childbirth, she wouldn't have developed fever (unless she had contracted some infection previously). Fever in connection with childbirth indicates puerperal fever, which would place Jon's birth at an earlier date (about a fortnight), and since women bleed throughout the puerperium period, she would still be in a bed of blood.

[corbon]

MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, on 20 May 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

And if they did, then what?

We have to guess.

Presumably, wait until Lyanna had recovered sufficiently to travel, or even risk it now that they know their location is known (locational anonymity was their primary shield before) and travel into exile in Essos until the baby King is sufficiently matured to reclaim his birthright.
Its not fleeing if they are protecting their king. Maybe they would have hid somewhere else in Westeros, but I doubt it. Once they have been discovered protecting an isolated tower, one assumes with Lyanna, no effort will be spared to track them down thereafter. And with the war over, few if any lords are likely to risk hiding them. No, IMO a better bet is exile in Essos, secret pacts with Dorne and maybe others, and bide their time.

But those are only my guesses.

The point isn't 'what to do next', its 'what options are available to us now'.
Unfortunately the answer is "none but fight, if we are to honour our vows".

taipan, on 20 May 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

@Apple, the point is why would they have feared execution if they bent the knee?

Its an irrelevant point. Fearing execution is neither here nor there. They swore a vow. These are the men most bound up in their honour in the whole system. Abandoning that vow just for personal safety makes a mockery of their whole lives and every way they define themselves. They are incapable of this.
Note that Barristan bent the knee only after it was all over. He was badly wounded at the trident, captured in his incapacitated state, and bent the knee to Robert only after his recovery when the Targaryens had been already effectively totally destroyed and the war well and truly over. Note also that Barristan recalls that had Robert smiled at the dead Targaryen babes nothing on earth would have stopped Barristan attacking Robert. But it was all over, the Targaryens were finished. Its one thing to give your life defending a live baby king, another entirely to give your life for no purpose just because a bratty child still lives far away in exile.

Lady Hodor, on 20 May 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

They probably didn't know Rhaegar was dead yet. And they had no reason to believe Ned's word on it, their enemy.

The conversation with Ned indicates they probably did know Rhaegar was dead. Robert couldn't have taken KL if Rhaegar yet lived, and I'm sure they have a better contact set up for news now than Rhaegar did when he was in hiding. News of the change of government would have gone out immediately to everywhere that a Raven could go, and dbe deliberately disseminated from those places as well. Dynasty overthrow as an event is quite a bit different from some minor squabbling between nobles and king.

MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, on 20 May 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

  But none of this explains what the KG has to gain from killing Ned, the only high lord who might possibly help Jon, or what there plan for Jon might be.

They have no reason to believe Ned would help Jon.
And they don't have to have a plan for the future (yet, although they might do, who knows).
All that is necessary to know is that Ned is the enemy of the Targaryens, responsible (directly or indirectly) for killing royal babies. The KG aren;t in it for gain. They are simply protecting the King from his enemies.

[Independent George]

MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, on 19 May 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

This topic always baffles me. The fight really only makes sense if you consider the KG to be mindless zombies. I don't see why they wouldn't try to get Ned to support Jon's claim.

Why o earth would Ned support Jon's claim? He just fought a war to remove the Targaryens and put his BFF on the throne; he might support Jon living in exile, but he'd never switch sides and fight to put him on the throne.

What you had at the TOJ was a conflict of mutually exclusive interests: Ned supporting Robert's claim, and the Kingsguard supporting Jon's. There is no room for compromise or negotiations from either party.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Independent George, on 21 May 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

Why o earth would Ned support Jon's claim? He just fought a war to remove the Targaryens and put his BFF on the throne; he might support Jon living in exile, but he'd never switch sides and fight to put him on the throne. What you had at the TOJ was a conflict of mutually exclusive interests: Ned supporting Robert's claim, and the Kingsguard supporting Jon's. There is no room for compromise or negotiations from either party.

Ned would never, I'm just saying the KG should know that the only people who might press the claim of a Targ/Stark child would be the north and Ned.

corbon, on 21 May 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

  No, IMO a better bet is exile in Essos, secret pacts with Dorne and maybe others, and bide their time. But those are only my guesses.

I agree, secret pacts and exile are their best option but Dorne would definitely not help Jon since R+L=J is the biggest reason for the death of Elia and her children.  To me the only logically region to make a secret pact with would be the north.

Just to play devil's advocate, maybe they did make a secret pact that included the KG going into hiding and Ned passing Jon off as his bastard until the time is right to press his claim.  I know it's a crackpot, but if you go by the rule of thumb for reading ASOIAF, "Never believe any death/event that you don't witness first hand", then you would have reason to doubt the death of the KG because Ned never remembers killing any of them and never refers to them as dead.  Ned says he tore the TOJ down to build 8 cairns, but never says there were any bodies in them.

[corbon]

MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, on 21 May 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

but Dorne would definitely not help Jon since R+L=J is the biggest reason for the death of Elia and her children.

No, it is not. There was no war as a result of R+L. Not even Lyanna's own father was expecting or planning for war at that stage or he wouldn't have come south to KL with just a couple of hundred men. I wish people weren't so mindless about this and actually thought about what happened when.
War is due to the madness of Aerys (aggravated by the stupidity of Brandon).

And the Dornish were allied by blood to the Targaryens long before Elia.

Note also that the Dornish have been secretly preparing to follow Rhaegar's brother/sister, not even related except in the ancient past to Elia. They clearly do not blame the Targaryens for the murder of Elia and her kids. They blame the Lannisters.
Note also that Rhaegar never put Elia aside and never showed any intent to do so. His heir and eldest daughter remained half Martell.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

corbon, on 21 May 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

No, it is not. There was no war as a result of R+L. Not even Lyanna's own father was expecting or planning for war at that stage or he wouldn't have come south to KL with just a couple of hundred men. I wish people weren't so mindless about this and actually thought about what happened when. War is due to the madness of Aerys (aggravated by the stupidity of Brandon). And the Dornish were allied by blood to the Targaryens long before Elia. Note also that the Dornish have been secretly preparing to follow Rhaegar's brother/sister, not even related except in the ancient past to Elia. They clearly do not blame the Targaryens for the murder of Elia and her kids. They blame the Lannisters. Note also that Rhaegar never put Elia aside and never showed any intent to do so. His heir and eldest daughter remained half Martell.

I'm not mindless.  You think Dorne would jump at the chance to support the child that Rhaegar conceived with another woman?  An act that brings shame to Elia and her family.  Was Dorne happy that Rhaegar had the three greatest KG knights guarding Lyanna instead of Elia and her kids?

[Maxpey]

MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, on 19 May 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

This topic always baffles me.  The fight really only makes sense if you consider the KG to be mindless zombies.  I don't see why they wouldn't try to get Ned to support Jon's claim.

However, hasn't GRRM said that the dreams Ned has under the influence of milk of the poppy should be taken with a grain of salt?  Meaning they might not be completely true or some key parts might have been left out?

This makes sense to me because it seems that Ned has a very selective memory and subconscious when it comes to anything that might be dishonorable.  The biggest example being that he never thinks to himself, "Boy raising my sister's royal son as my own bastard is really causing me problems".  There are also plenty of other examples: he never remembers specifically killing any of the KG, he never remembers bringing Dawn to Starfall(we get this from Cat's POV), he never remembers the actual words Lyanna made him promise, he doesn't recall having feelings for Ashara or seeing the Knight of the Laughing Tree.  I'm sure there are plenty more.  My only explanations for these things are that

1. these things never happened and the narrators who gave us this information are unreliable
2. Ned remembers only what he wants to remember

I tend to lean towards number 2

Or what GRRM wants the reader to know.  There are so many examples in GoT where GRRM only gives us portions of Ned's thoughts as they relate to Lyanna, Rhaegar and Jon, a lot of which are ambiguous.  But that's what makes them so much fun to discuss.

Edited by Maxpey, 21 May 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[The Dark Viper]

Simple..."The kingsguard does not flee"

Edited by The Dark Viper, 21 May 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Maxpey]

Sapphire, on 20 May 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Oh, I'm sure they knew full well that Aerys had done something incredibly stupid and crazy and that the Starks had been wronged. However KG are meant to serve and protect not judge.




Would Robert be willing to pardon Arthur Dayne, Rhaegar's best bud and likely conspirator? If he got it in his head that they were keeping Lyanna hostage and caused her death, then the three KG were as good as dead.

You are exactly right.  IIRC, Jamie and the rest of the KG watched as Aerys had Lord Rickon Stark roasted alive while he had Brandon Stark strangle himself trying to save his father.  Ser Gerold Hightower told Jamie that no matter how much he was sickened by what happened, he could not intervene, as his sole duty was to obey.  I think this was in one of Jamie's POV chapters in AFFC.

Edited by Maxpey, 21 May 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[jblair]

MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, on 21 May 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'm not mindless. You think Dorne would jump at the chance to support the child that Rhaegar conceived with another woman? An act that brings shame to Elia and her family. Was Dorne happy that Rhaegar had the three greatest KG knights guarding Lyanna instead of Elia and her kids?

Well, House Dayne obviously didn't seem to have a big problem with it.

[Rickons Revenge]

Ser Amoc, on 19 May 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

With the facts we have, it just seems like the KG were being stubborn. I like the idea that the KG's king, heir, and heir's heir were killed by the rebellion, and Ned was on the side of the rebels, so they just assumed he was there to finish off all the Targs. But still, couldn't Ned talk some sense into them? Like I said, I understand the KG are unrelenting towards their duty, but they can't be that dense to logic, can they? Ned was obviously there to help, and being known as a man of honor, I have a hard time believing the KG wouldn't listen to Ned at all.

I think Ned might have been stubborn about the whole thing I can see him riding up to the tower seeing the KG standing in front of the door he's already pissed about the whole thing he's probably exhausted by the war. And they tell him he can't enter the Tower! And dont see our beloved Ned taking to kindly to that

[corbon]

MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious, on 21 May 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'm not mindless. You think Dorne would jump at the chance to support the child that Rhaegar conceived with another woman? An act that brings shame to Elia and her family. Was Dorne happy that Rhaegar had the three greatest KG knights guarding Lyanna instead of Elia and her kids?

Sorry, the mindless thing is about R+L starting the war, which they clearly did not, but a lot of people jump on that bandwagon without actually paying any attention to the facts.

Now, Rhaegar. You realise Rhaegar has Martell blood? All Targaryens since Daeron II have been Martells. And we know the Martells still support House Targaryen.
And who says Rhaegar having a child with Lyanna is an act that brings shame to Elia? Elia couldn't have more children. She wasn't put aside. She was still Rhaegars wife, would still be queen, her child would still be King after Rhaegar. All that only changed after the Lannisters murdered Elia and her kids, which happened after Rhaegar was dead and there was nothing he could do about it.

And the three greatest KG thing guarding Lyanna being hurtful to Dorne is another misconception. Elia was the best protected. She had the invincibel Red Keep and thousands of men to protect her and her kids, the same protection Aerys the King had, not to mention Rhaegar along with Barristan Selmy, Lewyn Martell and Jonor Darry and the main royal army between them and their enemies.
I'm not even sure Dorne knows that the three KG were there. Dayne, we can assume (somewhere in the south at least), since Ned returned his sword and wasn't known to have it the last time he was seen at Storms End. But there is no reason anyone, including the Daynes, would have said more.

There is little or no evidence that the Martells were angry with Rhaegar. They are angry with the treatment of Elia - by the Lannisters. All the smiles died when Lyanna got the crown, but that can mean many things, including surprise, or even just the smiles around Ned, in the Stark party. Elia's reaction is not known at all.
There is evidence that the Martells still support the Targaryens.

So in summary, there is no reason to assume Dorne would not be receptive to secret pacts or alliances with Rhaegar's heir, especially not is protected by Ser Arthur Dayne.
With Ser Gerold Hightower around the Reach might have been amenable as well. They only bowed the knee to Robert after the Targaryens were destroyed. Or not, who knows?

Edited by corbon, 22 May 2012 - 08:49 PM.