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The Jeyne Westerling Theory


Lady Hodor

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In fact, the Talisa switch is the big factor that makes me disbelieve this theory. They would need GRRM's thumbs up before doing it, wouldn't they?

As to how I feel, on the one hand I'd like to believe Robb left a son, on the other hand I'm a bit tired of all the faked deaths.

That my take. Robb is liked by most readers and we want this marriage that cost him so much to produce some thing good and worthwhile. On the other hand its hard to beleive that Jaime and the other Western men would be deceived by posing Jeynes younger sister as her. According to Devan it was Jeynes Father that informed the Lannisters that his wife and 3 kids were at Riverrun. He was concerned that something might happen to them if Edmure was hung. He was captured at the Whispering Woods and was released by Robb sometime after his marriage but he was not at Riverrun so what the hell does he really know.

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There are a few holes here, but I wouldn't entirley count it out. It pretty much immediately struck me how Jaime described "Jeyne" as having narrow hips, when Catelyn had pointed out her hips to the point where it was absolutely grating and annoying. There's definitely something there.

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There are a few holes here, but I wouldn't entirley count it out. It pretty much immediately struck me how Jaime described "Jeyne" as having narrow hips, when Catelyn had pointed out her hips to the point where it was absolutely grating and annoying. There's definitely something there.

Cant someone just ask GRRM whether this was a mistake or not?? If it was He shouldn't have any problem telling us.

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Cant someone just ask GRRM whether this was a mistake or not?? If it was He shouldn't have any problem telling us.

Someone said that he did say the whole hip thing was a mistake on his part but he likes to keep people guessing so it does not mean shit. I don't know when he said this nor have I seen the transcript I have just seen people on this site reference it.

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Someone said that he did say the whole hip thing was a mistake on his part but he likes to keep people guessing so it does not mean shit. I don't know when he said this nor have I seen the transcript I have just seen people on this site reference it.

I think there are various other inconsistencies in descriptions. (In his interview a few days ago, GRRM clarified Mance Rayder's age, as the descriptions of him in the books caused much debate.) We've definitely had a horse change sex and colour between books, so there's no reason a girl's hips can't change between well-shaped and narrow! :D Jaime and Catelyn may also have slightly different perspectives when looking at women.

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I think there are various other inconsistencies in descriptions. (In his interview a few days ago, GRRM clarified Mance Rayder's age, as the descriptions of him in the books caused much debate.) We've definitely had a horse change sex and colour between books, so there's no reason a girl's hips can't change between well-shaped and narrow! :D Jaime and Catelyn may also have slightly different perspectives when looking at women.

It's possible, but he just explains her hips and how they are good for birthing quite a bit.

This argument can go either way. I personally believe she escaped (pregnant or not, is the question) but it could go either way. Both sides have good arguments and the only way to know for sure is to wait.

Some people in this thread argue like they know the truth.

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The first time I heard this theory I dismissed it as the wishful thinking of those of us who liked Robb and didn't want to let go/wanted there to be a way for his cause to carry on posthumously.

As time goes on and I read this forum -- and reread Jaime's POV chapters towards the end of AFFC -- the more stock I put in it. It answers all those otherwise unanswerable questions: Who is Blackfish still flying the flag for? What's up with the hips? Where's the little sister? Why the hell is Edmure so damn smug all of a sudden? Jaime smells so much smoke in those chapters its hard for me not to start seeing fire.

On the other hand...

Oona Chaplin's character in the TV show still being "Talisa from Volantis" instead of "Jeyne" puts a pretty heavy damper on this idea, although there's still time for her to swerve and reveal.

So does, as many have already pointed out, Rickon's existence. He's been insignificant and superfluous (not to mention far-fetched; Ned told Bran you kids "must raise these wolves yourselves, feed them yourselves, and if they die you will bury themselves;" Rickon is THREE when this starts. How the HELL is a 3 year old kid gonna raise a direwolf himself? Whatever, I'm sidetracking myself) until the reveal at the end of the last ADWD Davos chapter. There's no apparent point in Rickon being included in the story unless he becomes a necessary "spare heir" later. Robb Jr., if he exists, cuts right to the front of the line, fills that role, and makes Rickon redundant in it. Robb Jr. would also cut ahead of Jon, who Robb presumably named as heir in that Secret Will he made just before he died, which is another, similar problem.

These are bigger problems with the theory than, say, Sybelle Spicer being a double agent or playing both sides or truly switching sides 2 or more times. In general, we've seen over and over again in this series that being flexible and able to adapt to change is a prudent thing; it's a winning move in the game of thrones, a game which Ms. Spicer was compelled to start playing as soon as Jeyne and Robb made bedroom eyes at each other. It makes sense for their family, being mid-to-low level nobility, to jump at the chance to have a royal grandchild via a marriage to Robb; no offer on the table from Tywin can compete with that upside. Of course, it also makes sense for them -- as Lannister bannermen and holders of the lands next to Castamere -- to be acutely aware of what Roose Bolton refers to as "The Curse Of Tywin Lannister" and thus be eager to beg and bargain their way back onto his good side. Just as it also makes sense for that pressure to be relieved when Tywin dies and be looking to be back on Team Robb. ESPECIALLY if they're pissed off about Reynald being collateral damage of the Red Wedding (either Tywin "forgot" to tell them to hold Reynald back, or he "forgot" to tell the Freys to spare him, or he did and the Freys said "fuck it" because they wanted to kill a Westerling to punish their part in dissing the Freys and went with the only available one, hence their furtiveness when Jaime starts asking them where Reynald/Reynald's body is) and want to defect back to Blackfish & Co. Even without that, the marriage matches they get as a reward kinda suck, definitely not as good as being a prince's grandma. Even the moon tea/not moon tea isn't that problematic; yes it is if you think everyone's telling the truth because then Sybelle Spicer needs to either be prescient or a master of time travel [and let's hope she's not] so she can retroactively stop giving Jeyne moon tea. But if she's telling Jaime the truth then she must needs have been lying to her daughter. So either way we know she's a liar, so why not lie to Jaime, be it about moon tea or be it about that being Jeyne or Eleyna? For all we know Jeyne got wise to it being moon tea and started dumping it in the privy on the sly and lied to her mom about drinking it -- she's 16, siding with your boyfriend against your mother and defying/lying to her is natural behavior at that age. We can punch holes in Sybelle's story to Jaime easily; more to the point GRRM has left himself lots of outs if he indeed plans to work around it and produce "Robb Jr." (or "Roberta" for that matter. I think it'd be kinda funny if GRRM made this theory turn out to be both completely true and completely unimportant by having Jeyne give birth to Robb's daughter, who'd be far enough down the succession line to not be necessary anyway. "Roberta" isn't even necessary as an emergency/Freyblood-Free Tully heir; Sansa's got that base covered).

But Rickon and Talisa are still the questions the "Jeyne's Pregnant" theory can't really answer. [CRACKPOT: Martin's planning a sequel/spinoff series OR a Book 8 that deals with a future Stark Succession Crisis/Civil War, Northmen backing Rickon vs Riverlanders backing Robb Jr. All the characters you like most picking sides and murdering each other. That'll learn ya to LIKE characters...]

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If Jeyne is pregnant then I'll be ecstatic; if she's not then I wont be disappointed. There's no way to know if she is or isn't. I mean yes, her mother said she wasn't but couldn't know for sure. But there's nothing to suggest that she isn't either. How much time passed between when Rob went to the Frey's and when Jamie met Jeyne?

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4. The line the false Jeyne delivers sounds rehearsed: "The crown was mine. Robb made it for me. I loved him!" That is all she says. She also acts more childishly than someone who had been, even briefly, queen would be. Trying to flee the room and so forth.

:agree:

Besides, as you correctly wrote, (f)Jeyne says "I loved him." She uses the past tense when Robb's death is so recent. That's not right at all. A true love is always present in the heart. She's still loves him. She is not Jeyne or Jeyne didn't ever loved Robb.

Also, Martin has done this "Identity Switch" a dozen times now, would he really do it again?

GRRM repeats schemes, cliffhangers, people faking his/her death, switched babies and switched people, lots of characters pretending be someone else, magic tricks, outright liars and unreliable characters like Sybell, Petyr, Lysa, Varys, Longwaters. GRRM uses parallels schemes and echoes all the time. Why wouldn't GRRM plot a parallel with the Jeynes?

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So... now lets just be clear.... Jeyne escaped with the Blackfish and nobody has any idea because someone else--possibly her sister--is pretending to be her? Yes or no?

I always thought that maybe the Blackfish and/or Stoneheart would capture her back while she's on her way back to Kings landing but if she's somehow escaped with the Blackfish I'll be stoked! But sad there is no way to know if she's prego because they're aren't any clues in either direction. Idk... can anyone else think of any?

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I always thought that maybe the Blackfish and/or Stoneheart would capture her back while she's on her way back to Kings landing but if she's somehow escaped with the Blackfish I'll be stoked! But sad there is no way to know if she's prego because they're aren't any clues in either direction. Idk... can anyone else think of any?

Not really, other than Jaime being so damn worried about the possibility.

There's a bit of, I guess we could call it anti-foreshadowing? in the ASOS epilogue when the New Brotherhood Without Banners is about to string up Merret Frey and he begs to be let go because "I have children." They reject his plea reminding him "That Young Wolf never will". Since we're so used to GRRM running misdirection on us, and up meaning down and yes meaning no, some might think this line, delivered with such certainty, is GRRM trying to throw us off the scent.

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If GRRM has stated it's an error -- and I don't know that he has; someone has to provide a source -- then "so it does not mean shit" doesn't apply. GRRM does not lie to readers about these sorts of things. It's cheating for him to deliberately lie, and he very well knows it. If he doesn't want to answer a question, he's perfectly capable of not doing so.

But again, I don't actually know that he has said it's a mistake. Someone's going to have to provide a source for that.

(That said, again, I think it's an error. It happens.)

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. Someone's going to have to provide a source for that.

The only place I ever saw that addressed is through some poster around here who said they asked him that at a signing -- and another confirmed the same another time. I don't actually remember who it was (maybe if it was a long time/well known poster then that would lend it more credence) since it was probably close to a year ago that I saw it -- and I can't find the thread now either. Maybe someone else will dig it up though.

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Okay, found it. Livewyre reported this from the Union Square signing, the same we have a separate report about here.

In this post, Livewyre notes that remark on mistakes in the books that the SSM has, and then adds that when they had their book signed, they asked GRRM about Jeyne's hips and he indicated that that was one of those sorts of mistakes he was talking about in the Q&A.

How trustworthy is it? I do not know. As it falls in line with my thinking, it has its appeal. I see elsewhere that David Selig has raised the question about why that error has not been corrected, but it's perfectly possible that no one has noted it directly to GRRM outside of signing contexts, and he just doesn't remember to send in to Bantam about it.

Maybe I'll bring it up to Bantam myself some time and see if Anne Groell's aware of that bit and knows anything about it.

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So lets say that they use Jeyne's sister as a double, what the people on this forum and Westerlings think will happen to Elenya and Crags when Lannisters find out? And they will find out eventually, Jeyne wasn't missing like Arya for two years and the whole smallfolk of Crag wasn't murdered and even "Arya" was recognized as fake by Theon, Jaime and who know who else.

BTW, it was really "clever" of Jaime not to make absolutely sure he has the right girl, especially after Lannisters used the trick with an imposter themselves :bang:

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If GRRM has stated it's an error -- and I don't know that he has; someone has to provide a source -- then "so it does not mean shit" doesn't apply. GRRM does not lie to readers about these sorts of things. It's cheating for him to deliberately lie, and he very well knows it. If he doesn't want to answer a question, he's perfectly capable of not doing so.

But again, I don't actually know that he has said it's a mistake. Someone's going to have to provide a source for that.

(That said, again, I think it's an error. It happens.)

In the Spanish translation of ASOS and AFFC it says "good hips" (Catelyn) and "wide hips" (Jaime); so there was not much discussion about it, except for the ones who have read it in English (and noticed Jeyne's hips) or the fans who've read the theories.

Catelyn advirtió que era esbelta, pero tenía buenas caderas» (Catelyn II, TDE)

Jeyne era una muchachita espigada aunque de caderas generosas» (Jaime VII, FDC)

(Spanish translation)

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:agree:

Besides, as you correctly wrote, (f)Jeyne says "I loved him." She uses the past tense when Robb's death is so recent. That's not right at all. A true love is always present in the heart. She's still loves him. She is not Jeyne or Jeyne didn't ever loved Robb.

Actually and in a way I am adresing the post you cited but Jeyne is presented as an idiot at times. Robb cuts off Karstarks head and he is sitting there in his study covered in the guys blood and she brings him a plate of boar ribs and a tankard of ale and is genuinely suprised that this did not turn his frown upside down. Despite being his Queen she is never included in any serious political matters. She is present at the dinner with Lothar and Walder Rivers but is dismissed when the conversation is about to get serious.

If GRRM has stated it's an error -- and I don't know that he has; someone has to provide a source -- then "so it does not mean shit" doesn't apply. GRRM does not lie to readers about these sorts of things. It's cheating for him to deliberately lie, and he very well knows it. If he doesn't want to answer a question, he's perfectly capable of not doing so.

But again, I don't actually know that he has said it's a mistake. Someone's going to have to provide a source for that.

(That said, again, I think it's an error. It happens.)

I am sorry if you felt I insulted the authors integrity. I do not pay to much attention to his interveiws or go to conventions. I only see second hand sources and some accuse him of being misleading at times with his answers. But he does like to keep people guessing.

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When Brienne arrives in the barn where the children are hidden there is a pregnant Jeyne, which Brienne also describes that this girl would be at the same age as Sansa, even though she never met Sansa.

Jeyne Heddle, I believe. The daughter of Masha Heddle, she of the red-stained teeth (from chewing sourleaf) and proprietress of the Inn at the Crossroads, hanged by Tywin Lannister for allowing Tyrion to be kidnapped from her premises.

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