206 replies to this topic

[Lord Yarwyck]

She'll kill Polliver in the next episode, and that will be when Jaqen gives her the coin.  My prediction anyway.

[SerMixalot]

my bet is she will pet a kitten and dress in a frilly whte dress, then jaqhen will give her thecoin

[The Monkey]

Aye, it was a bit of a let-down. We need to have Arya kill in cold blood. Also annoyed that we didn't see Jaq'en in action.

[Night Gathers]

The best part of a Clash of Kings was the weasel soup scene. She doesn't need to be Weasel for the scene to happen. I was so looking forward to it, the best scene in the whole book. I'm hoping the last episode will impress since it's called "Valar Morghulis" it has to be significant to Jaqen's coin.

[Jamie Lannister]

That was really bad. One hell of a tacky substitute for weasel soup.

[SerMixalot]

seems to me a meeting with JH in the future will seem contrived, arya is supposed to be on the run and JH is well either at Harrenhall or changingfaces and moving to Oldtown, if he is part of the garrison that chases arya, it will seem contrived that he is one of those that meets up with her.

[Completely Headless Ned]

I was looking forward to the facechanging scene. I have no complaints about the actual escape though.

[The hairy bear]

I'm fine with the producers making all the changes they need to make the story work in their book. Taking away the weasel soup, changing the three deads, making Arya  Tywin's cupbearer,... I can accept all of this.

My problem is that they have completely missed the tone. Harrenhal should have been a terrible place that had converted Arya to an hardened girl. I don't see why she feels the need to flee from TV Harrenhal where she'll be much better there than in the woods. But the fact that Gendry and Hot Pie follow her is just unbeliavable. And Arya's future development is at risk of not making too much sense.

They seem to be making Arya to stay as a likeable clever girl instead of the emotionless killer that she should be becoming.

[boojam]

I can see now why Tywin never asked her name.
Well ... I expected a replacement for Weasel Soup, I just did not think it would be so 'off stage'.

Interesting that Jaqen finally gets to explain that a named victim will always take a hit, but that it can take a long time to get done. (He says at least a month in show, tho I thought he said longer in the book.)
Some of Arya and Jaqen's dialog , in the 'thrid naming' is almost straight from the book.
I did not expect they would jam so many sequences in such that some variant on Weasel Soup would not play out.

It's left as a mystery as to how Jaqen took down , what ?, at least 6 gate guards, tho something a FM could do... but alas they left the action out.

Edited by boojam, 21 May 2012 - 07:30 AM.

[The Monkey]

I've been thinking. Maybe they did show some character development in Arya after all. We've had four (?) episodes of Arya/Tywin interacting, where he has shown her respect, trust and affection, confiding in her some of his doubts and secrets. And after all that, Arya still wants the man dead without a second thought. I think this shows her emerging ruthlessness, and not letting abstract things like honour stand in her way.

[SerMixalot]

Arya's story is the essence of the issue I have with HBO's adaptation this season.

Book Arya was always a bit odd, not at all like a lady.  Tomboy, prefering scabs to sewing, HBO got that right in season 1.  She started training with SF, got that right.  The changes started a little in Season 1 with the killing of the stableboy, which they made an accident more than an intentional self defense act, but passable.

This season they have thrown the book  out the window.

She did not kill men in Yoren's last battle, she did not run out and back into a burning building to save 3 men in a cage, she did not lead her compatriots through the woods, she did not try to save gendry, she did not transform into a sheep, she did not transform into a mouse (those transformations are critical to her experience with the FM), she did not train in the gods woods, she did not break her wooden sword, she did not plan her own escape, she did not cold bloodily kill a man, she did not stand up to Roose Bolton.  All of these actions ARE Arya.

In stead, she sat in a cart going to the wall, she had a short talk with Yoren, she deceived Lorch about gendry being dead, she stood around in a pig sty, she knows all sorts of history (indicating book learning that was counter to her book character, but ok, she liked Nans stories), she ummm was a cupbearer for Tywin making tywin seem like a fool for trusting  her, she used JH to kill a few people (ok I can accept that parrallel with the books-kills but not the kill she should have made), I can even accept the removal of the weasal soup episode.  But she has done very little to empower herself, to show her inner strengths of foreshadow what she is to become.  nothing at all.

next she will flee (presumably with some interaction with JH to get the iron coin), get caught hang with the BWB for a short while, get kidnapped by the Dog and eventually flee to Bravos.  But very little in that part of the story explains why she should go to the FM.  She will be a child following and being saved instead of the righteously independent BAMF she is in the book.

serioiusly missed opportunity there.

[SerMixalot]

The Monkey, on 21 May 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

I've been thinking. Maybe they did show some character development in Arya after all. We've had four (?) episodes of Arya/Tywin interacting, where he has shown her respect, trust and affection, confiding in her some of his doubts and secrets. And after all that, Arya still wants the man dead without a second thought. I think this shows her emerging ruthlessness, and not letting abstract things like honour stand in her way.

im sorry but i dont buy that.  She has no reason to like Tywin, he is the father of the queen that killed her father.

[SerMixalot]

And to expand on my point I would point  you to last weeks inside the episode discussion by D&D.  They refer to Jamie as a monster.  To me that is a complete misperception of Jamie's character.  Jamie is a flawed human being, who does despicable things, but he is not a monster.  Gregor Clegane, Joffrey, they are monsters-almost 1 dimensional characters exhibiting evil.  Jamie is far more complex.  and to perceive him as a monster, just shows me that D&D dont understand his character.  Now of course that is probably because of the transition to TV, but it is disconcerting nonetheless.  Why? Because I am hoping for a TV show that is intelligent, that allows the viewer to explore complex human emotions and situations instead of simplistic cliches.

As an aside, t hat is one reason I am drawn to GoT, for the opportunity for complexity and depth to be infused in a genre that has historically been cliched and childish, it would be fresh.

But if the producers fail in one of the best examples of that complexity, well that makes me worry for the future of the adaptation.  instead of a highly complex character with human's motivations (narcissim), we have a monster.  a one dimenstional character.  Insted of exploring why Jamie is the way he is we get non sequitors (dyslexia-really?).  That will make any redemption cliched and boring, because we dont understand Jamie beyond that he is a monster, cause that is what the producers believe  him to be.  That depth of character, that enrichment of the world is certainly possible, HBO did it with Tony Soprano.  Instead we have a much shallower adaptation.

Sad for t he missed opportunity.  Please feel free to point out where I am wrong.

[Versiroth]

Arya ordered the killing of several men this season.  Just because she didn't kill them herself doesn't change the fact that they're dead because of her.   It's like some of you just can't read between the lines here.   How is she "innocent" in the show if several people are dead on her command?   She also showed that she is quick witted and very adaptable.   When Tywin accused her of being "noble born", she kept coming back at him with answers to continue her cover up.  Even thought he expected she was high born, she never gave in and revealed it to be true.   All of the things that happen still lead into her future very well.

[modehead]

SerMixalot, on 20 May 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

they have eliminated so much of the basic characterization that will make Arya a FM BOOOOO

Totally. Ugh.

Her escape from Harrenhal is absolutely perfect in the book. Why did they screw with it? It would've made great television. Are they writing the Faceless Men out of the series already? If so, where does Arya's plot go?

[modehead]

I'm really upset that the Tywin/Arya plot was thrown away in this episode. If they were going to re-write Arya's plot, they could've at least kept that going. Didn't it seem like Tywin was about to figure out who Arya was?

Oh well

[Versiroth]

SerMixalot, on 21 May 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

And to expand on my point I would point you to last weeks inside the episode discussion by D&D. They refer to Jamie as a monster. To me that is a complete misperception of Jamie's character. Jamie is a flawed human being, who does despicable things, but he is not a monster. Gregor Clegane, Joffrey, they are monsters-almost 1 dimensional characters exhibiting evil. Jamie is far more complex. and to perceive him as a monster, just shows me that D&D dont understand his character. Now of course that is probably because of the transition to TV, but it is disconcerting nonetheless. Why? Because I am hoping for a TV show that is intelligent, that allows the viewer to explore complex human emotions and situations instead of simplistic cliches. As an aside, t hat is one reason I am drawn to GoT, for the opportunity for complexity and depth to be infused in a genre that has historically been cliched and childish, it would be fresh. But if the producers fail in one of the best examples of that complexity, well that makes me worry for the future of the adaptation. instead of a highly complex character with human's motivations (narcissim), we have a monster. a one dimenstional character. Insted of exploring why Jamie is the way he is we get non sequitors (dyslexia-really?). That will make any redemption cliched and boring, because we dont understand Jamie beyond that he is a monster, cause that is what the producers believe him to be. That depth of character, that enrichment of the world is certainly possible, HBO did it with Tony Soprano. Instead we have a much shallower adaptation. Sad for t he missed opportunity. Please feel free to point out where I am wrong.

Nice assumptions.   Jaime at this point in the book was a complete douche.  It wasn't until he was force to struggle with missing a hand that he started to look at things in a different light.   I've never liked Jaime.   It actually made me mad when it was obvious that Martin was trying to redeem him in the first place.   But it isn't time for redemption yet in the show, so stop assuming that things will be mishandled just for the sake of arguing points that don't exist.

[Versiroth]

modehead, on 21 May 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

Totally. Ugh. Her escape from Harrenhal is absolutely perfect in the book. Why did they screw with it? It would've made great television. Are they writing the Faceless Men out of the series already? If so, where does Arya's plot go?

Why would anyone think they are writing the faceless men out?  All we saw was Arya leaving the castle.  Jaqen could be waiting for them outside to say his good byes and give her the coin.   Also, as I said earlier, Arya has killed one person and ordered the deaths of several others.   I still don't get how people claim her to be all innocent on the show.   She has plenty of blood on her hands.

[David Selig]

I don't mind the removal Weasel Soup, but not having Arya kill the guard is a big deal for me.Another case of whitewashing in the show, they've really reduced the moral complexity of the actions of many characters.

Quote

Arya ordered the killing of several men this season. Just because she didn't kill them herself doesn't change the fact that they're dead because of her. It's like some of you just can't read between the lines here. How is she "innocent" in the show if several people are dead on her command?

There's a difference between killing someone with your own hands and ordering it done. More importantly, she's ordered the killing of two complete monsters. Killing a guard who could've been a perfectly decent guy and who's done nothing to her would've been quite different.

[Versiroth]

David Selig, on 21 May 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

I don't mind the removal Weasel Soup, but not having Arya kill the guard is a big deal for me.Another case of whitewashing in the show, they've really reduced the moral complexity of the actions of many characters.


There's a difference between killing someone with your own hands and ordering it done. More importantly, she's ordered the killing of two complete monsters. Killing a guard who could've been a perfectly decent guy and who's done nothing to her would've been quite different.

Where do you guys get that Arya is some sort of monster in the books?   She's a girl who will do anything to survive.  They're showing that in the show quite well.  


I swear, you guys are all mixed up.  Arya needs to be a monster in your eyes and Jaime needs to apparently be some sort of saint.