104 replies to this topic

[Envie]

I'm really happy with the way they've changed Ros into Alayaya's part without sacrificing the basic essence of the story. This saved them a LOT of backstory necessary to make the Chataya's whore house scenes work, for some characters who would only appear in a couple of episodes at most. It was also a useful way to have a character we've grown accustomed to (even if many disliked her) since Season 1. Well played, and I'm glad someone reminded us about the chain Tyrion gave Ros way back in season 1, because that's a small detail many like me will have forgotten as a clue to how Cersei or whoever her informer was, decided Ros was Tyrion's whore.

As for how or why Cersei would believe this whore, the same one Tyrion sent to Joffrey is the whore he loves so much - I agree with others that Cersei's own arrogance is a good reason she not only doesn't care, but is likely oblivious to the identities of the whores who were sent to Joffrey in the first place. I doubt she would have met them personally.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I think it was implied in the show that Varys misdirected Cersei away from Shae to protect her as a favor to Tyrion.

[Ser Chuck]

Arrogant Bastard, on 20 May 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

but it makes no sense that she would play along after what happened to her when Tyrion sent her to Joffrey.

How is she playing along with anything? When Cersei's people came to get her do you think they would believe her even if she flatly denied any relationship with Tyrion? Her denials, if she even made them, would be nothing more than an excuse to beat her even more severely. I also sincerely doubt Shae would do anything but deny Tyrion if confronted herself. No one is going along with anything. Her spies told Cersei it was Ros so Ros is the one who gets kidnapped and tortured. Tyrion acknowledged Ros in order to protect Shae further though I believe he is honorable enough to try and compensate Ros later.

[HyacinthGirl]

Ha! HA! Fucking knew it.
Sorry. I'm just so proud guessing that Ros = Alayaya when she first appeared in KL. I can now forgive her presence... almost.

[SerMixalot]

Ser Hippie, on 20 May 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

Ros has a Lannister chain/necklace, was with Tyrion at Winterfell and has been in KL for awhile. She also was specifically sent to Joffrey, as you noted. Someone tells her that it's Ros. Why wouldn't Cersei jump at t to his? She's not exactly the Westerosi Sherlock Holmes after all, and sending his "love" to Joffrey is exactly the type of act a twisted and depraved dwarf like Tyrion would do (from her PoV). Honestly, you come across like you're complaining about anything for the sake of complaining now.

so we are to believe cersei thinks tyrion loves ros enough to be effected by cerseis threats of pain and death, but cersei also believe tyrion doesnt care enough about her that he would allow joffrey (a person she knows tyrion doesnt like) to have sex with her?  that is logical to you?

[SerMixalot]

fwiw, i rewatched the episode with ros from s1 ep1 and tryion did not give her any chain, I am looking for the other scenes to see if she has a chaing

[Pellaeon]

SerMixalot, on 21 May 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

fwiw, i rewatched the episode with ros from s1 ep1 and tryion did not give her any chain, I am looking for the other scenes to see if she has a chaing

She get the necklet after Tyrion arrived from the wall, watch the Theon/Ros sence there is it mention

[SerMixalot]

well it was established that tyr gave ros a necklace, i still say meh

[SerMixalot]

Ser Hippie, on 20 May 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

  Honestly, you come across like you're complaining about anything for the sake of complaining now.

BTW, this is the internet you know, we are allowed to complain!

Folllow my posts I tend to calm down over a few days and praise the series as well.

For example, I think HBO has done an excellent job on Theon's story

[Castel]

Independent George, on 20 May 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

I'm starting a thread because I know this is going to get a lot of discussion. I actually started to like Ros this season, and I thought that scene played out very well. And for the purists, let me just say that I for one am relieved that we didn't have a young black girl stripped and beaten by a bunch of wealthy white aristocrats. I'm not typically politically correct by any means, and I understand compartmentalizing a fantasy series versus the real world, but there is just waaaaay too much baggage behind the original scene from the books. This is the only way it could work, and it did.

I... don't get your point here, much. much more terrible shit has happened over the course of the show, wealthy aristocrats beat up on everyone, Alayaya wouldn't be that big a leap. I don't see the issue here.

As for Ros, well they have her on the books and it makes a bit more sense than introducing a random whore, but I guess Cersei was desperate, I just can't see her jumping on someone with only tangential connection with Tyrion, I mean, did he ever see her after the trip to Winterfell? It's quite possible that she won the necklace there. Or at least that was my initial thought, but the more I think about it, it is mighty suspicious that Tyrion shows up in King's Landing and Ros ends up there as well with the same necklace. And kudos to them for showing the necklace long before it was actually used.

Meh, hopefully this means Ros goes away for a while now, I get it, she's a nice bridging character and you don't have to find somebody to take her place, but the fact that ninety percent of the gratuitous sex scenes involve her has totally made me hate her character.

[Reposado]

this was an insult to our intelligence. such a key example of what has been a really valid complaint.

they have scenes in their mind, and then don't know how to move the pieces to get there logically.

there is no reason, that we as viewers would know, that cersei would think tyrion wa sin love with ros. we know she has spies watching him. they probably would have seen the zero contact he has had with her in kings landing.

just bad bad bad writing.

[Mulled Wino]

Lanza Rota, on 21 May 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

this was an insult to our intelligence. such a key example of what has been a really valid complaint. they have scenes in their mind, and then don't know how to move the pieces to get there logically. there is no reason, that we as viewers would know, that cersei would think tyrion wa sin love with ros. we know she has spies watching him. they probably would have seen the zero contact he has had with her in kings landing. just bad bad bad writing.

I agree, its very lazy writing at best.

At worst her spies just completely feed her bullshit info, at best, Varys owns her spies and has them feeding bad info, but none of that is even hinted at well enough to the casual viewer.  My wife had no clue where any of that came from.

[Morvran]

Lanza Rota, on 21 May 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

this was an insult to our intelligence. such a key example of what has been a really valid complaint. they have scenes in their mind, and then don't know how to move the pieces to get there logically. there is no reason, that we as viewers would know, that cersei would think tyrion wa sin love with ros. we know she has spies watching him. they probably would have seen the zero contact he has had with her in kings landing. just bad bad bad writing.

Maybe one of her spies was actually Varys's spy and he volunteered Ros as the 'kept whore' to both piss off Littlefinger and do Tyrion a favor?  Who knows...but I can roll with it.  Especially now that I know I won't have to suffer Ros scenes much longer.

[HyacinthGirl]

SerMixalot, on 20 May 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

so using your logic, why would cersei think that Tyrion cares about Ros at all? In the book, tyrion visited alaya many times, establishing that this was someone that Tyrion cared about due to the repeated visits.

Lanza Rota, on 21 May 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

this was an insult to our intelligence. such a key example of what has been a really valid complaint. they have scenes in their mind, and then don't know how to move the pieces to get there logically. there is no reason, that we as viewers would know, that cersei would think tyrion wa sin love with ros. we know she has spies watching him. they probably would have seen the zero contact he has had with her in kings landing. just bad bad bad writing.

Think about it, Ros and Tyrion had sex in the first episode.
Cersei may have found out Ros was from Winterfell, using said 'spies', and decided that Tyrion had her brought to KL to be his whore for a while. Makes sense.

Edited by HyacinthGirl, 21 May 2012 - 09:28 AM.

[Abaddon]

Lazy writing?  Lazy commentary in this thread is more like it.

Honestly, do you people even pay attention when you're watching?  It is obviously strongly hinted as others have said that Varys tipped Cersei off as a misdirect.  It's also obvious that Cersei would never pay attention to what a whore was doing and clearly never even saw the whores Tyrion "gifted" to Joffers.  The only one who saw them was the Hound, who very obviously WASN'T THERE in this scene at all.  It was Mandon Moore instead.

The move makes sense.  No, it's not perfect, but given the economy in which it was all handled, well done D&D.

[Tadco26]

The main similarity to Alayaya is that she is a whore who took the beating meant for Shae.  But there are some stark differences in the circumstances.

1) Alayaya is discovered because that is who Tyrion goes to "see" when he is really seeing Shae, slipping thru the secret door in her room.  It makes more sense that a spy would reach that conclusion in those circumstances.  You would think that spies would do enough research to know that Ros was the whore Tyrion sent to Joff.
2)  Alayaya took the beating and protected Shae, as far as we know Ros doesn't even know about Shae.
3) Ros has slept with Tyrion, Alayaya never did.

The scene didn't bother me.  In comparison to many of the other changes, it was quite minor and made sense for Ros to fill that role.  I wish they would have carried it a bit further with Tyrion sneaking thru the passages of Ros's room to get to Shae earlier in the season, but since that was Littlefinger's brothel rather than a location recommended by Varys, I understand how that would have been problematic too.

I still don't know why, in the context of the TV show, Tyrion is in love with TV Shae.  She generally treats him indifferently at best and disrespectfully at worst, and it is very hard for me to see why he would love her or even tolerate her.  Most of the sex scenes in the show have been overly long for what they have added to the story, but Tyrion and Shae could have used another sex scene this season, and their chemistry has been non-existent.

[Ser Hippie]

I'm really baffled about why this is considered "lazy writing". A scene or two reinforcing the background of the story Cersei is believing might have helped but it also would have been unnecessary, really, and a waste of time. Do we really want them spending time for no real purpose other than explicitly setting up relatively minor scenes like this?

Ros has a Lannister chain/necklace (Cersei comments on this as damning evidence, a very Cersei thing to do) and someone (presumably Varys or one of his agents) specifically tells her that Ros is Tyrion's whore. Given Varys' control over espionage and Cersei's character, do people think she'd like investigate the brothels of King's Landing personally?

A source tells her Ros is the whore she's looking for. The guards find a Lannister chain/necklace on Ros. Case closed for Cersei (the viewers aren't supposed to be convinced, but we actually - generally - like and respect Tyrion at this point).

SerMixalot, on 21 May 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

so we are to believe cersei thinks tyrion loves ros enough to be effected by cerseis threats of pain and death, but cersei also believe tyrion doesnt care enough about her that he would allow joffrey (a person she knows tyrion doesnt like) to have sex with her? that is logical to you?

Again, where in either the book or show has Cersei ever shown an inclination to judge Tyrion's emotional and sex life logically? She thinks he's a depraved, "dirty" dwarf who spends his time with whores doing all manner of sinful and awful things with them. Him sending his "love" to Joffrey is just another example of the behavior she assumes he's taking part in all along. It doesn't matter what we think Tyrion would do, it matters what Cersei would, and a blunder like this is exactly something Cersei would do.

The problem with the scene, if there is one, isn't Ros - it's that I find it hard to believe that TV Tyrion is that in love with TV Shae, as Tadco argues. TV Tyrion is softened up from the books, but it still rings a bit false for me.

Edited by Ser Hippie, 21 May 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Morvran]

Tadco26, on 21 May 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

I still don't know why, in the context of the TV show, Tyrion is in love with TV Shae. She generally treats him indifferently at best and disrespectfully at worst, and it is very hard for me to see why he would love her or even tolerate her. Most of the sex scenes in the show have been overly long for what they have added to the story, but Tyrion and Shae could have used another sex scene this season, and their chemistry has been non-existent.

His scene with Shae in this episode fell flat for me because I don't feel anything between them.  Talisa and Robb are waaaay more believable, and that's saying a lot.  

...maybe it's the actresses's annoying accent and/or emotionless delivery

[Strider]

victim, on 21 May 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

You could tell by the way the conversation started that Varys told Cersei that Tyrion loved Ros, essentially saving Shae's life. I thought that much was obvious. All that matters is that Cersei thinks it's true.

Exactly!

[Independent George]

Castel, on 21 May 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

I... don't get your point here, much. much more terrible shit has happened over the course of the show, wealthy aristocrats beat up on everyone, Alayaya wouldn't be that big a leap. I don't see the issue here.

Really? You don't see what a difference it makes if the wealthy aristocrats are beating up on a black girl versus a white one?