195 replies to this topic

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

SerArthurHeath, on 21 May 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

You think Ser Loras in the books would have beaten Jaime and Jaime would have thought that? Loras isn't even the best swordsman in his immediate family!

Sir Loras is a badass, yes. Ser Loras beat the mountain in Ned Stark's hound tourney. If Ser Loras can beat the mountain, he has a chance at beating Jaime. Ask yourself this: How much bigger is the mountain than Loras? Then this: how much bigger is Jaime than Loras?

The show has painted him as a pansy who likes men, but don't let your prejudice against homosexuals and his defeat by Brienne make you think he isn't a respected dualist and fighter. Brienne is a beast and a beauty, but being beat by her is only a shame in the extremely sexist pre-enlightenment culture that medieval westeros is set.

It was always clear that Jamie respected Brienne's size and form, he just never respects her femininity. He wants to fight her to prove that he can beat the strongest woman... and then go on to beat the strongest man.

Oberyn is cool, sure. He is not anywhere on the radar of best fighters ever though... because his family is backwater Martell that was close to the "mad king".

Doran is a cripple, his heir is a woman, and the leading man is "prince frog"... underestimated to be sure... but still the Martells are not held in high regard either in book or show and Jaime was not referring to any living Dornishman.

[Hear Us Roar]

Ser Coffee The Bold, on 21 May 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

Sir Loras is a badass, yes. Ser Loras beat the mountain in Ned Stark's hound tourney. If Ser Loras can beat the mountain, he has a chance at beating Jaime. Ask yourself this: How much bigger is the mountain than Loras? Then this: how much bigger is Jaime than Loras? The show has painted him as a pansy who likes men, but don't let your prejudice against homosexuals and his defeat by Brienne make you think he isn't a respected dualist and fighter. Brienne is a beast and a beauty, but being beat by her is only a shame in the extremely sexist pre-enlightenment culture that medieval westeros is set. It was always clear that Jamie respected Brienne's size and form, he just never respects her femininity. He wants to fight her to prove that he can beat the strongest woman... and then go on to beat the strongest man. Oberyn is cool, sure. He is not anywhere on the radar of best fighters ever though... because his family is backwater Martell that was close to the "mad king". Doran is a cripple, his heir is a woman, and the leading man is "prince frog"... underestimated to be sure... but still the Martells are not held in high regard either in book or show and Jaime was not referring to any living Dornishman.

Agreed about Loras, i hope they show him as the badass he is during the Battle of Blackwater.

Edited by Hear Us Roar, 21 May 2012 - 12:31 AM.

[House Martell]

Sticking to just "Show" Jamies mind rules out some guys and I'll assume he's sticking to guys still alive at that point. He does have the man crush on Selmy, and the Mountain is pretty legendary in the show. The 3rd one is purely speculation but I'm hoping they make Oberyn appropriately bad-ass.

[House Martell]

Ser Coffee The Bold, on 21 May 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

Sir Loras is a badass, yes. Ser Loras beat the mountain in Ned Stark's hound tourney. If Ser Loras can beat the mountain, he has a chance at beating Jaime. Ask yourself this: How much bigger is the mountain than Loras? Then this: how much bigger is Jaime than Loras? .

But Loras A) only beat Gregor in a joust, not combat (he needed Sandor to save him there). B ) only won the joust but throwing off Gregors horse with a mare in heat.

Ser Coffee The Bold, on 21 May 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

  but still the Martells are not held in high regard either in book or show and Jaime was not referring to any living Dornishman.

I doubt Tyrion would send Marcella off to some "backwater", the alliance of the Martells is obviously an important thing.

Edited by House Martell, 21 May 2012 - 12:47 AM.

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

Hear Us Roar, on 21 May 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

Well it depends if he is talking about the present or the past. If it was for all time it would be Dayne, Barristan, Loras Tyrell.

Thankyou, someone who recognizes Jamie's prerogative: reputation.

As book readers, we may respect Bronn more than Jaime or Loras in terms of fighting ability; but the nobles of Westros only fear who they know who to fear: as with "the mountain", "the night of flowers", or "Barristan the Bold".

Jaime doesn't fear the right warriors, he fears having his honor dragged through the dirt as it has been since he was called "King-slayer".

Jaime Lannister, in the books, and in the show, hates being called a "man without honor". I'm pretty sure in the series we are being shown something about Jaime that we didn't see until book 3, when he was speaking of breaking one vow to adhere to another, but one has to give credit to that statement given his strange and unheard of situation in contemporary terms.

I think people hold Jaime's skills at swordsmanship too high to begin with anyway. His skills have been trumped up with pomp and circumstance from the very beginning of the book series, to the end. Loras has accomplished more with his sword hand in the five books than Jaime. Jaime accomplishes more without one.

[Bourne]

Seriously people? Loras? No.

Loras isn't even as good as his own brother. He's a great jouster, but beating The Mountain in a joust does not equate to a swordfight. The mountain would crush Loras. As would Jaime.

By my count, the only characters in the book who might stand a chance against Jaime are the Clegane brothers, Selmy, and Garlan Tyrell. Those are the four best fighters aside from Jaime.

As Garlan hasn't been introduced in the show, Jaime was refering the The Hound, The Mountain, and Ser Grandfather.

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

House Martell, on 21 May 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

But Loras A) only beat Gregor in a joust, not combat (he needed Sandor to save him there). B ) only won the joust but throwing off Gregors horse with a mare in heat. I doubt Tyrion would send Marcella off to some "backwater", the alliance of the Martells is obviously an important thing.

House Martell, on 21 May 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

But Loras A) only beat Gregor in a joust, not combat (he needed Sandor to save him there). B ) only won the joust but throwing off Gregors horse with a mare in heat. I doubt Tyrion would send Marcella off to some "backwater", the alliance of the Martells is obviously an important thing.

OK, I can see you love the Martells and Dorne, and so do I; but you are not seeing things from the "game of thrones" view that you should be.

At this time in the show and in the books, House Stark, and House Martell are powerless and need allies more than any other house. Sure, the Greyjoys are striking out, but they are "whores", right?

In Robert Baratheon's rebellion, he took the throne. With the might of the Stormlands, the North, the East, and the Riverlands. Who first rebelled? The Iron Islands did . Who lost their heirs? The Iron Islands did.

& Then that ended that. Because the other kingdoms dared not resist the alliance Robert assembled, there was peace.

Now in the book or series of game of thrones is no such situation. Oberyn Martell is also a badass, but how well is he known from Tourneys or battle?

What battle against Pyke is he known for? Was he a kingsuard with Barristan Selmy... hell no. Oberyn is a heir to a House held in no regard by anyone except for Tyrion, which it was smart for him to send her there in the first place. The enemy of your enemies is you friend!

[Anvilbreaker]

I think you guys are really overrating Loras. He is a great tourney knight, but is not as good a fighter. A lot of people like to defend his loss to Brienne by saying she cheated, but all is fair in a fight to the death, and Jaime has less regard for honor than Brienne, so he would definitely cheat in a fight. based on who the show has presented, who are probably the only people Jaime really knows that much about, I would say Barry the Bold, the mountain and the hound. i don't think that Jaime has seen enough of garlan to really fear him.

[SerArthurHeath]

Loras Tyrell isn't even as good as his older brother with the sword. He is a jousting knight. That is from Loras himself.

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

Who has read to book 5? I'm not trying to spoil anything... but Loras does more with his sword hand than Jaime does the whole book series.

[SerArthurHeath]

No he doesn't we hear that he does some stuff but

Spoiler

nobody with a POV has seen it. Plus if you mean Dragonstone, it's all with a morningstar, technically.

Plus Jaime canonically cuts through Robb Stark's army when he sees he has lost the Whispering Woods and nearly kills Robb. Nobody is saying Loras isn't a badass, but I'm not sure he's in my top 10 swordsmen

[House Martell]

Ser Coffee The Bold, on 21 May 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Who has read to book 5? I'm not trying to spoil anything... but Loras does more with his sword hand than Jaime does the whole book series.

Getting covered in boiling oil? you're right Jamie never did that. I'm not sure what great deeds your referring to? What great warriors were on Dragonstone when he took it?

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

House Martell, on 21 May 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

Getting covered in boiling oil? you're right Jamie never did that. I'm not sure what great deeds your referring to? What great warriors were on Dragonstone when he took it?

Ok, so Loras does what he does for family and honor... what does Jaime do for anything other than his own honor?

[Bourne]

Ser Coffee The Bold, on 21 May 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Who has read to book 5? I'm not trying to spoil anything... but Loras does more with his sword hand than Jaime does the whole book series.

He didn't do anything of note in the fifth book. Aside from have his flesh burnt off.

Loras is a good warrior. Nobody is disputing that. But he's nowhere near as good as Jaime. And more importantly, he isn't as good as the Clegane brothers or Ser Barristan. He isn't one of the three.

Ser Coffee The Bold, on 21 May 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

Ok, so Loras does what he does for family and honor... what does Jaime do for anything other than his own honor?

Totally irrelevant. Even if Loras has more honor than Jaime, it doesn't make him a better fighter.

Edited by Bourne, 21 May 2012 - 01:25 AM.

[House Martell]

Ser Coffee The Bold, on 21 May 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

OK, I can see you love the Martells and Dorne, and so do I; but you are not seeing things from the "game of thrones" view that you should be. At this time in the show and in the books, House Stark, and House Martell are powerless and need allies more than any other house.

The Martells don't need anything, no one has ever taken and held Dorne, no is attacking them and they have no dogs in the fight at the moment. Tyrion sees them as a valuable asset, he had many other plans he could of gone with  but he chose to deal with the Martells for a reason.

Also I'm trying to see things from HBO's perspective for this discussion and Oberyn is dripping with TV "bad-assness", I don't know if I would include him in this discussion book wise, but TV wise since he is going to slay the Mountain I'm thinking they are going to build him up.

Edited by House Martell, 21 May 2012 - 01:22 AM.

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

This was never supposed to be who "we" ranked as the best nights in the first place though was it? Rather, who does Jaime think are the "best".

Get into his head, and there you have it. I think Oberyn is bad ass, sure; but I bet Jaime doesn't.

Thats my point.

[House Martell]

Ser Coffee The Bold, on 21 May 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

Ok, so Loras does what he does for family and honor... what does Jaime do for anything other than his own honor?

OK so now your talking about honor, the discussion is about swordmenship.

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

House Martell, on 21 May 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

The Martells don't need anything, no one has ever taken and held Dorne, no is attacking them and they have to dogs in the fight at the moment. Tyrion sees them as a valuable asset, he had many other plans he could of gone with but he chose to deal with the Martells for a reason. Also I'm trying to see things from HBO's perspective for this discussion and Oberyn is dripping with TV "bad-assness", I don't know if I would include him in this discussion book wise, but TV wise since he is going to slay the Mountain I'm thinking they are going to build him up.

Tyrion sees them as a valuable ally because they are the only house who has not tried to kill a Lannister yet. Sure, Oberyn Martell plans on taking vengeance on the one who "splattered their queen's brain and her scion's brain on the walls of KL"... but Doran Martell is more patient.

I like Doran because he is the opposite of Greyjoy. He is plotting wisely, any way, that he can deliver his family from backwater status.

Remember: facts in the book declare that Dorne is the least populous kingdom of the realm, including the north.

[SerArthurHeath]

Jaime doesn't think Loras is better though- he specifically tells Loras that when Jaime was 15 (younger than Loras and presumably way off his peak) he was "stronger, faster and better". I'd give Loras 8 seconds against the likes of Jaime or Sandor

[Ser Coffee The Bold]

House Martell, on 21 May 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

OK so now your talking about honor, the discussion is about swordmenship.

No, the discussion is about who Jaime was naming the big 3 who could kill him... not who we would rank as the best three.