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[Book Spoilers] The countinuing emasculation of Jon Snow


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#241 SerMixalot

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:09 AM

WRT to Jon's feelings about turning his cloak it is another example GRRM has placed in the story about conflicting duties. He has a duty to his vows to the NW and he has a duty to follow QH's orders. The interesting part is how he thinks and reacts to this conflict. He tries to find a middle ground going over to the wildings, becoming a wilding, while never losing his core belief that he remains a NW. And we see how different people react to it. Some believe him and htat he remained honorable, while others dont.

It is interesting to contemplate how other characters would have reacted in that scenario, ie Jamie,Ned, Brienne

#242 jonsnow74

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:18 AM

Man, poor Jon Snow, he can't even get credit for finding the dragonglass with ghost, AND he now has follow Ygritte around on a chain with her threatening to cut off his balls if he escapes in front of everyone.

He got punked repeatedly at Craster's, had to beg to go with the Halfhand, didn't get to kill anyone when they found Ygritte the other watchers (just only took her by suprise), he gets himself lost, then Ygritte makes him look like a child in their banter, and gets led into a trap by Ygritte.

They are just killing this poor kid, and by extension Ghost. Ghost is the worst warg partner/guardian direwolf in history right now.

and his hair is the worst and why does he constantly have the look of a really dumb person on his face all the time

#243 jonsnow74

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:19 AM

I really dont like the Jon Snow thats in the show his hair makes me want to beat him up

#244 Nine of Spades

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 12:21 PM

You don't get the concept of what a spearwife is at all, do you? In fact, it is Ygritte who stands up and protects Jon on every single occasion in ASOS.


She sticks up for him within the society, she doesnt physically protect him or seem to worry about him. When Rattleshirt is threatening him on the Fist of the First Men, she seems content enough to let Jon and Ghost kill him, though she does point out that Ghost is there. Shes quick to point out hes the one who killed the Halfhand and Orell Thats not to say that shes a shrinking violet and wont stick up for herself, but shes still a wildling. I dont think she would protect him if she didnt think he was worth the time or would never be able to stick up for himself. Or her. Show Jon doesnt give Ygritte any reason to think hes worth the time.

The term 'emasculation' in this thread is telling enough. Ygritte is not into Jon because he is a mindless brute who is able to defend what he manages to drag into his cave. Mance is not king of the wildlings because he could beat the Magnar of Thenn and some other leaders. It is much more than that. Wildling society is the only society we have met that knows about gender equality. A man who steals a woman is not simply required to be violent, he must be smart and creative on top of that. Ygritte is not into Jon because he can protect her. She can protect herself.


I think the how of it is far less important then that you succeed. Its sort of a test of manhood, one you have to pass to get the girl.

As for Mance, being kng of the wildlings isnt about conquest. Hes a coalition builder. Hes only a leader in as much as hes convinced the other leaders that they should listen to him. And that coalition is very fragile, that pretty much dissolves as soon as hes captured.

I think you are misapplying modern notions here. Wildling society has "gender equality" in the sense that it comes darn close to everyone for themselves. A woman has to fight for her life, just like everyone else, and if shes good at it, they dont hold it against you. You either strong, or you are nothing. When Ygritte tells Jon about her first time, she mentions that the boy tried to steal her later, and Longspear Rick broke his arm and called the boy weak. All wildling women are going to want the strongest men they can find, even if they can protect themselves, because having 2 strong people in a marraige is going to be safer then one.

She starts to like him because he is smart, interested in her culture and their songs. If he was a mindless brute, she would just kill him in his sleep, because that is what wildling women do, in contrast to the kneeler women that are just sold by their families and have no way of helping themselves. I liked that about the show, they underlined that there is a society in which women can be strong. I would have hated it if Jon "had just shut her up" with some witty remark. This is her territory, she is a strong woman, and she chose Jon to be her partner not because she needs protection, but because she is a free woman. Just like the free folk choose their own kings. Jon is lost in this kind of society, and the show decided to underline that. He will get used to it and then he will appear more confident again. Right now, he has a lot to learn. For example, that being mocked by a woman doesn't equal emasculation. Ygritte outsmarted him and he will learn to do the same, and she will like him even better for it. Why do you all think weakness in a certain situation is a sign of 'emasculation'? This would imply not being a man (= being a woman) would equal weakness, right? Ygritte was in a weak position when she was captured, and no one would think she was a weak person. She was clever and turned the tables on Jon, so this initial weakness worked in her favour. Jon has to do the same. Why would that be emasculating? You need to experience failures so you can overcome them, but this is not even the point. The point is that Ygritte is not there to show that Jon is a desirable guy. Her function in the story is to reveal the free folk's perspective.


It changes the nature of their first encounter profoundly. Instead of Jon showing strength, he shows weakness. So her first impression of him is going to be "this guy couldnt even hold me prisoner properly , what a moron." The subsequent belittling, especially the nature of it, is also I think telling. It might be possible to salvage Jon in her eyes if Qhorin and Jon escape in a clever way, but even then they are just going to be hunted down again and Jon will yield. But the fact the escape will surely fail diminishes the importance of it. But still, he doesnt even properly steal her in the show. Her people recover her easily enough. In the book she isnt set free until Jon lets her go. As far as shes concerned hes free and clear at that point. But the show? He doesnt really have her free and clear and ultimately Jon doesnt escape.

As for Ygritte being weak, she didnt try and turn her cloak did she? Part of the reason that shes tough is because of how she stands up to the notion of being executed. She also shows her toughness and cleverness in how she maneuvers Jon through wildling society. Jon is invariably going to look weaker in the first half of ASoS, because he does need Ygritte's help quite a bit. But the story can get away with it because Jon is already pretty well established both in the story, so what happens at the end of the book is believable for the character.

And no, her function is not just to tell Jon of the wilding customs, its also to make him fall in love with her, to put the tension between love and freedom vs. duty and quite possibly death. Shes a temptation for Jon.

I think it was a good decision to lay the ground work for the concept of wildling society during the scenes with Ygritte and to cut the scenes with the rangers being on the run from Rattleshirt. These scenes would only be useful to work on Qhorin' characterisation, but why do we even need one? We didn't spend as much time with him as in the books. He will die soon, so why 'waste' scarce screen time with him? I like Qhorin in the books, but for the show they decided not to focus on his character, but on this function to the plot development. In the following seasons, it will be much more important that Jon learns about wildling culture because the free folk are an important statement about feudal Westeros and the Game of Thrones. If Jon is destined to be a king or a leader, he needs to learn these things. It's much more important than being the invincible smart guy with the cool wolf. This story is not about Jon, it is about the Game of Thrones. It is a political story, not a Bildungsroman. So maybe they are not very subtle with the handling of Jon's learning processes. So what?


Those scenes running would, if done properly, been good TV. It also would have been more faithful to the characters in the book.

Edited by Nine of Spades, 27 May 2012 - 12:29 PM.


#245 Keep Shelly in Athens

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 01:12 PM

Wildling society is the only society we have met that knows about gender equality. A man who steals a woman is not simply required to be violent, he must be smart and creative on top of that.


Gender equality...ehhhh maybe. If you look at it from the point of view of a male in wilding society who can't steal a woman or is incompetent in violent situations - he's most likely devalued and branded as effeminate. Women are allowed a lot of independence, but there's still hierarchy. I didn't get the sense that there is a variety of expressions that are equally valued in wildling society - you're a badass or a badass bitch, and that's it. Having to be a badass all the time is emotionally draining and virtually impossible. The true test of gender equality is how a society responds to weakness, not just strength.

Ygritte is not into Jon because he can protect her. She can protect herself. She starts to like him because he is smart, interested in her culture and their songs. If he was a mindless brute, she would just kill him in his sleep, because that is what wildling women do, in contrast to the kneeler women that are just sold by their families and have no way of helping themselves. I liked that about the show, they underlined that there is a society in which women can be strong.


I dont buy the protection argument either. Jon has always been interested in strong women, and that's why Ygritte likes him - he's not threatened by her and doesn't treat her like a helpless maiden.

I would have hated it if Jon "had just shut her up" with some witty remark.


Me too, this is why Tyrion's remarks to Cersei really get on my nerves.

Jon is lost in this kind of society, and the show decided to underline that.


He seems lost in both NW and wildling society. In the show, he's a shitty ranger and a shitty steward. I think that's what people are complaining about.

being mocked by a woman doesn't equal emasculation. Ygritte outsmarted him and he will learn to do the same, ...


Whatever you call it, Jon Show is repeatedly insulted by the people around him. This didn't happen in the books. Jon Show is "prettier than Craster's daughters," not a "better ranger" than a steward, "brave but stupid," and "dumber than he looks." At this point in character rankings he's probably the only Stark who hasn't done something to impress those around him (let alone the audience). Arya, his closest ally in the family, looks like a female genius compared to him. Benioff and Weiss seem to think he's a dumb jock.

I think it was a good decision to lay the ground work for the concept of wildling society during the scenes with Ygritte and to cut the scenes with the rangers being on the run from Rattleshirt...


I agree with others who have complained that they lack drama. The stakes need to be high for the fate of the characters. Tension should be building, but its not. We just have Jon bumbling from one scene to the next. We can have an anthropology lesson later in S3.

#246 Longspear Ryk

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 02:03 PM

what their doing to Jon is complete blasphemy if you ask me....

D&D must hate Jon Snow... they make him look like such a dumbass.

#247 Nine of Spades

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 05:55 PM

I dont buy the protection argument either. Jon has always been interested in strong women, and that's why Ygritte likes him - he's not threatened by her and doesn't treat her like a helpless maiden.


Your looking at it in terms of what Ygritte would want specifically for her personality. Thats not the point. What Wildling society has conditioned her to look for in men is one who can A) take what he wants and /cool.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' /> protect what he has. Ygritte wouldnt consider anyone she doesnt see as strong, or at least as strong as she can get, a suitable mate. Again, the other guy we know of that was interested in her was ultimately dismissed as weak. Strength is a very basic requirement here, one that if we assume that Ygritte is capable of protecting herself, not a lot of men are likely to meet.

#248 GoodGuyA

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 07:40 PM

I feel that it's all about the progression of the character. Season 1 his arc was about learning to accept his place as something even lesser than he truly was, but rises higher than he ever could have become otherwise. Season 2 is about his downfall from that stature. Jon never seemed to go through a real arc in the books. When the big event for him happened in ASOS, it seemed to be leaping over character steps rather than taking them one by one.

Listen, all I'm saying is that I feel the spirit has been kept. Jon's never been the most interesting character, and surely not a lot happens in his Book 2 storyline. Go north (with someone), find wildlings. I completely understand them giving the dragonglass to Samwise Samwell. It starts him on his own arc, which I again hope is better handled than the book. His own story in ASOS is Go south (with someone), be cold.

People will be re-evaluating things by the time Season 3 comes around. The writers are working in the long term in order to even out the plots and the characters with their respective points, and when we examine emotional states it becomes more evident of why decisions were made. Just step back for a moment and ask if it works for what story is going to be told over the course of the show. I think you'll surprise yourselves on what you can and can't forgive.

Edited by GoodGuyA, 27 May 2012 - 07:40 PM.


#249 Ghost714

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:01 PM

I feel that it's all about the progression of the character. Season 1 his arc was about learning to accept his place as something even lesser than he truly was, but rises higher than he ever could have become otherwise. Season 2 is about his downfall from that stature. Jon never seemed to go through a real arc in the books. When the big event for him happened in ASOS, it seemed to be leaping over character steps rather than taking them one by one.

Listen, all I'm saying is that I feel the spirit has been kept. Jon's never been the most interesting character, and surely not a lot happens in his Book 2 storyline. Go north (with someone), find wildlings. I completely understand them giving the dragonglass to Samwise Samwell. It starts him on his own arc, which I again hope is better handled than the book. His own story in ASOS is Go south (with someone), be cold.

People will be re-evaluating things by the time Season 3 comes around. The writers are working in the long term in order to even out the plots and the characters with their respective points, and when we examine emotional states it becomes more evident of why decisions were made. Just step back for a moment and ask if it works for what story is going to be told over the course of the show. I think you'll surprise yourselves on what you can and can't forgive.


Just because you didn't think Jon's story was that interesting in ASoS, that doesn't mean everybody thinks that.

And the story they tell over the course of the show should reflect the story told in the books, for the most part.

The writers can tell a story in the long term while evening out the plots and characters, without completely changing the essence of the characters. They can do it without making Jon the dumbest guy in the Nights Watch etc.

#250 Mulled Wino

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:55 PM

I feel that it's all about the progression of the character. Season 1 his arc was about learning to accept his place as something even lesser than he truly was, but rises higher than he ever could have become otherwise. Season 2 is about his downfall from that stature. Jon never seemed to go through a real arc in the books. When the big event for him happened in ASOS, it seemed to be leaping over character steps rather than taking them one by one.

Listen, all I'm saying is that I feel the spirit has been kept. Jon's never been the most interesting character, and surely not a lot happens in his Book 2 storyline. Go north (with someone), find wildlings. I completely understand them giving the dragonglass to Samwise Samwell. It starts him on his own arc, which I again hope is better handled than the book. His own story in ASOS is Go south (with someone), be cold.

People will be re-evaluating things by the time Season 3 comes around. The writers are working in the long term in order to even out the plots and the characters with their respective points, and when we examine emotional states it becomes more evident of why decisions were made. Just step back for a moment and ask if it works for what story is going to be told over the course of the show. I think you'll surprise yourselves on what you can and can't forgive.


Jon's storyline not interesting in CoK?

#251 Lord Haart

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 03:21 AM

I'm not unhappy with how Jon's been treated by the show, and I've been a fan of his up to the end of ADwD (where I feel like Martin makes him seem dumb without warning - maybe these episodes will help make that believable?).

Yigrette was well acted (I think), and their dialogue was some of the funniest yet. Jon doesn't seem dumb to me - just green. I think he's going to benefit in the long term because this sets him up to grow, whereas in the book he starts off as a cool badass who slowly degrades into a kid that makes dumb decisions (same thing as Dany, btw. Start a character off as too strong, and you can't really grow them, nor can you give them real challenges without making them appear fallible in a way they previously weren't (which makes them look dumb)).

#252 GoodGuyA

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:51 AM

Jon's storyline not interesting in CoK?

In terms of how it translates, no. We obviously can't be inside his head for any of it, and most of the events we come across are set-ups. Craster is set-up. FotFM is set-up. Qhorin is set-up (at least it pays off in that book). Ygritte is set-up. It's introducing concepts and leaving them to be resolved in ASoS. That's why the ASoS storyline for Jon is so interesting. The things he learns about the cultures around him are shown and pay off in a relatively smooth timeframe. It's complex without being convoluted, such as Robb's story. If you all think that these decisions are somehow ruining Jon's character, you forget what his character was back then.

#253 Hear me Meow

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 02:55 PM

I'm not unhappy with how Jon's been treated by the show, and I've been a fan of his up to the end of ADwD (where I feel like Martin makes him seem dumb without warning - maybe these episodes will help make that believable?).

Yigrette was well acted (I think), and their dialogue was some of the funniest yet. Jon doesn't seem dumb to me - just green. I think he's going to benefit in the long term because this sets him up to grow, whereas in the book he starts off as a cool badass who slowly degrades into a kid that makes dumb decisions (same thing as Dany, btw. Start a character off as too strong, and you can't really grow them, nor can you give them real challenges without making them appear fallible in a way they previously weren't (which makes them look dumb)).


I respect your opinion (and its good your happy with the HBO story) but I could not disagree more with this.

Jon definitely did not start behaving like a dumb kid at the end of a DwD. He had never had to face a situation in the first three books that tried him even remotely as much as the role of Lord Commander did in a DwD. I think a lot of people were unhappy with how Grrm wrote Jon and Dany in Dance because they have no conception of how much more difficult leadership is, especially at such a young age, than most other roles. Jon and Dany had to shine in the early books to make credible their rapid ascent to power in their respective areas as well as the competent and capable way they wielded it (for the most part). I don't know of anyone in our history who as been elected a military leader at sixteen (saving when election only confirms a hereditary succession) and Dany the fifteen year old conqueror of Astapor has no parallel. Jon is respected as LC despite his youth and inexperience, has much more vision than all his other commanders and wins the respect of Stannis. His mistakes at the end of DwD were not a boy's mistakes but could easily have been made by grown men. The same sort of thing goes for Dany but I'm not going to get into that.

For Jon in particular nothing he does in the early books, including Storm, is remotely as challenging as pulling off the role of Lord Commander given the situation in Dance. As LC he is required to have well thought out long term plans for the defence of the wall, ways of dealing with Stannis, the Boltons, the Wildlings and methods of keeping his own men in check and maintaining good relations with them. He also has to organize supplies. He has to defend all his decisions to those around him who are critical of them and try and persuade them to come around to his point of view. The political situation in the north becomes very tangled and complicated and the situation created by Ramsay's direct threat to the watch leaves him faced with a problem to which there really is no easy answer.

In Clash he just has to follow Qhorin's orders which he does competently (unlike Jon Show). Storm is more difficult but posing as a turncloak, escaping, carrying a message to Castle Black and then aiding Donal Noye to conduct the defence doesn't even equate to the complexity of the problems he faced as LC. A lot of the stuff in Storm requires single mindedness, determination, survival skills and so on. In Dance he had quite different problems thrown at him all the time which he was substantially less well trained to cope with. They required much more thought, tact and consistent dedication that his previous tasks. I don't think it is surprising or unbelievable that he failed (although we don't quite know what happened as yet). But I certainly don't think he degenerated at all during Dance, quite the opposite really. The only reason to think this is if you believe he was handling the same sorts of problems in the early books and he just wasn't.

It's Jon Show who is the poor character because it really isn't believable than he can improve himself to anything like the extent he needs to, to be LC in 16-18 episodes. He lacks maturity, which is essential in young leaders and he fails at even basic good sense. He has no idea who he is and is much less comfortable in his own skin than Jon Snow (who does have identity issues). He is just an average kind of chap, not really stupid in the grand scheme of things but he isn't anything like he needs to be if he is going to be a very young military and political leader in less than a year's time. The time with the wildlings is even another unknown environment for him, where he doesn't learn the lessons he seems to need and unlike Jon Snow he drowned on his first ranging.

If HBO follows the basic story of Jon in the books it will be wildly implausible in character terms, unlike Martin's story which shows great insight into the problems of leadership and and the difficulties especially young rulers faced. I think if you want precocious sixteen year old generals and queens you ought to make them impressive at an early age because ruling is far more complicated and difficult than anything else.

#254 Mulled Wino

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:02 PM

In terms of how it translates, no. We obviously can't be inside his head for any of it, and most of the events we come across are set-ups. Craster is set-up. FotFM is set-up. Qhorin is set-up (at least it pays off in that book). Ygritte is set-up. It's introducing concepts and leaving them to be resolved in ASoS. That's why the ASoS storyline for Jon is so interesting. The things he learns about the cultures around him are shown and pay off in a relatively smooth timeframe. It's complex without being convoluted, such as Robb's story. If you all think that these decisions are somehow ruining Jon's character, you forget what his character was back then.


You are completely out of your mind and 100% off base. The above post is a complete fabrication. What decisions are you saying that I am saying is ruining his character. How about being specific instead if making generic comments that make zero sense.

What is specifically wrong with the perception of his character? Lol at "set-ups". Everything could be construed as a "set-up" in the books. Literally EVERYTHING.

#255 Mulled Wino

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:11 PM

I respect your opinion (and its good your happy with the HBO story) but I could not disagree more with this.

Jon definitely did not start behaving like a dumb kid at the end of a DwD. He had never had to face a situation in the first three books that tried him even remotely as much as the role of Lord Commander did in a DwD. I think a lot of people were unhappy with how Grrm wrote Jon and Dany in Dance because they have no conception of how much more difficult leadership is, especially at such a young age, than most other roles. Jon and Dany had to shine in the early books to make credible their rapid ascent to power in their respective areas as well as the competent and capable way they wielded it (for the most part). I don't know of anyone in our history who as been elected a military leader at sixteen (saving when election only confirms a hereditary succession) and Dany the fifteen year old conqueror of Astapor has no parallel. Jon is respected as LC despite his youth and inexperience, has much more vision than all his other commanders and wins the respect of Stannis. His mistakes at the end of DwD were not a boy's mistakes but could easily have been made by grown men. The same sort of thing goes for Dany but I'm not going to get into that.

For Jon in particular nothing he does in the early books, including Storm, is remotely as challenging as pulling off the role of Lord Commander given the situation in Dance. As LC he is required to have well thought out long term plans for the defence of the wall, ways of dealing with Stannis, the Boltons, the Wildlings and methods of keeping his own men in check and maintaining good relations with them. He also has to organize supplies. He has to defend all his decisions to those around him who are critical of them and try and persuade them to come around to his point of view. The political situation in the north becomes very tangled and complicated and the situation created by Ramsay's direct threat to the watch leaves him faced with a problem to which there really is no easy answer.

In Clash he just has to follow Qhorin's orders which he does competently (unlike Jon Show). Storm is more difficult but posing as a turncloak, escaping, carrying a message to Castle Black and then aiding Donal Noye to conduct the defence doesn't even equate to the complexity of the problems he faced as LC. A lot of the stuff in Storm requires single mindedness, determination, survival skills and so on. In Dance he had quite different problems thrown at him all the time which he was substantially less well trained to cope with. They required much more thought, tact and consistent dedication that his previous tasks. I don't think it is surprising or unbelievable that he failed (although we don't quite know what happened as yet). But I certainly don't think he degenerated at all during Dance, quite the opposite really. The only reason to think this is if you believe he was handling the same sorts of problems in the early books and he just wasn't.

It's Jon Show who is the poor character because it really isn't believable than he can improve himself to anything like the extent he needs to, to be LC in 16-18 episodes. He lacks maturity, which is essential in young leaders and he fails at even basic good sense. He has no idea who he is and is much less comfortable in his own skin than Jon Snow (who does have identity issues). He is just an average kind of chap, not really stupid in the grand scheme of things but he isn't anything like he needs to be if he is going to be a very young military and political leader in less than a year's time. The time with the wildlings is even another unknown environment for him, where he doesn't learn the lessons he seems to need and unlike Jon Snow he drowned on his first ranging.

If HBO follows the basic story of Jon in the books it will be wildly implausible in character terms, unlike Martin's story which shows great insight into the problems of leadership and and the difficulties especially young rulers faced. I think if you want precocious sixteen year old generals and queens you ought to make them impressive at an early age because ruling is far more complicated and difficult than anything else.


Jon's LC election is easily the most challenging leadership position other than maybe Dany faced by any character in ASOIAF.

#256 Mulled Wino

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:12 PM

I respect your opinion (and its good your happy with the HBO story) but I could not disagree more with this.

Jon definitely did not start behaving like a dumb kid at the end of a DwD. He had never had to face a situation in the first three books that tried him even remotely as much as the role of Lord Commander did in a DwD. I think a lot of people were unhappy with how Grrm wrote Jon and Dany in Dance because they have no conception of how much more difficult leadership is, especially at such a young age, than most other roles. Jon and Dany had to shine in the early books to make credible their rapid ascent to power in their respective areas as well as the competent and capable way they wielded it (for the most part). I don't know of anyone in our history who as been elected a military leader at sixteen (saving when election only confirms a hereditary succession) and Dany the fifteen year old conqueror of Astapor has no parallel. Jon is respected as LC despite his youth and inexperience, has much more vision than all his other commanders and wins the respect of Stannis. His mistakes at the end of DwD were not a boy's mistakes but could easily have been made by grown men. The same sort of thing goes for Dany but I'm not going to get into that.

For Jon in particular nothing he does in the early books, including Storm, is remotely as challenging as pulling off the role of Lord Commander given the situation in Dance. As LC he is required to have well thought out long term plans for the defence of the wall, ways of dealing with Stannis, the Boltons, the Wildlings and methods of keeping his own men in check and maintaining good relations with them. He also has to organize supplies. He has to defend all his decisions to those around him who are critical of them and try and persuade them to come around to his point of view. The political situation in the north becomes very tangled and complicated and the situation created by Ramsay's direct threat to the watch leaves him faced with a problem to which there really is no easy answer.

In Clash he just has to follow Qhorin's orders which he does competently (unlike Jon Show). Storm is more difficult but posing as a turncloak, escaping, carrying a message to Castle Black and then aiding Donal Noye to conduct the defence doesn't even equate to the complexity of the problems he faced as LC. A lot of the stuff in Storm requires single mindedness, determination, survival skills and so on. In Dance he had quite different problems thrown at him all the time which he was substantially less well trained to cope with. They required much more thought, tact and consistent dedication that his previous tasks. I don't think it is surprising or unbelievable that he failed (although we don't quite know what happened as yet). But I certainly don't think he degenerated at all during Dance, quite the opposite really. The only reason to think this is if you believe he was handling the same sorts of problems in the early books and he just wasn't.

It's Jon Show who is the poor character because it really isn't believable than he can improve himself to anything like the extent he needs to, to be LC in 16-18 episodes. He lacks maturity, which is essential in young leaders and he fails at even basic good sense. He has no idea who he is and is much less comfortable in his own skin than Jon Snow (who does have identity issues). He is just an average kind of chap, not really stupid in the grand scheme of things but he isn't anything like he needs to be if he is going to be a very young military and political leader in less than a year's time. The time with the wildlings is even another unknown environment for him, where he doesn't learn the lessons he seems to need and unlike Jon Snow he drowned on his first ranging.

If HBO follows the basic story of Jon in the books it will be wildly implausible in character terms, unlike Martin's story which shows great insight into the problems of leadership and and the difficulties especially young rulers faced. I think if you want precocious sixteen year old generals and queens you ought to make them impressive at an early age because ruling is far more complicated and difficult than anything else.


Jon's LC election is easily the most challenging leadership position other than maybe Dany faced by any character in ASOIAF.

#257 Nine of Spades

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:20 PM

Yeah, I dont get the whole "Jon is making dumb mistakes as LC". He's pretty much on rotten ice from the start. He has a faction within the watch almost at open revolt. He has to try to please Stannis, while at the same time try to appear neutral. Hes got a bunch of wildlings north of the wall that he desperately wants to get behind the wall, but he has to have some kind of control over them. Hes got no money, no supplies, and he needs to not only feed his men but find a way to feed the wildling. Hes also trying to check Mel and her lord of light forced conversions and general people burning. In the end he pushes to hard and too fast for some members of the Watch, and doesnt see their rebellion/assassination attempt coming.He also throws in fully with Stannis, but I dont think thats a bad call, at this point I think there is no way Ramsay lets him get away with what he wants to do with the wildlings.

If he can survive the assassination attempt (ill assume he does) and he or stannis can defeat the Bolton's, he wil have pulled off a pretty remarkable turnaround. He will have gotten a large number of additional wildlings south with the means to control them, secured a large amount of funding both as forfeit from the wildlings and the bank of braavos, and he will have a relatively stable political situation in the North.

#258 Hodor Hodor!

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:39 PM

Completely agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread. Jon's story, or lack of, has been the most disappointing aspect of this this season (so far) - IMO. I have no problem with plot changes, but when the writers alter the very nature of the character, it irks me. Jon is certainly a little ungainly at times, but he isn't a complete moron. I thought the book played out perfectly with Jon/Ygrette and would have adapted to the screen beautifully. Sure we are ending up in the same place, but it's at Jon's expense. As others have noted, who would vote this bumbling fool to be Lord Commander. Also, where are the Direwolves?? Such an important part of the series, particularly in later seasons, but I haven't sighted one for what seems an eternity. Maybe they were all in use for the filming of "The Grey" and will be back later on.

#259 Mulled Wino

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:21 AM

I see it didn't get any better in the last couple of episodes.

#260 Jon Mark Selmy

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 12:12 AM

The first season is pretty succesful, so they get it in their heads that it's because of them, and then they think they can make any change they want. When in reality, the first season did so well because they actually stuck to the source material(for the most part).


EXACTLY. I've been trying to say that many times in many threads.