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[Book Spoilers] The countinuing emasculation of Jon Snow


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#21 Keep Shelly in Athens

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 06:35 PM

I still like Kit Harington's acting. And I feel sorry for Qhorin now that he's captured.

I thought Jon stuck up for himself pretty well in Ygritte's argument about the Wall.

Chasing after Ygritte and getting lost (when they only ran, like .8 miles) is where I started to wonder if the writers thought a chase scene between Jon and a girl would be more interesting than a chase scene between a pack of wildlings and the rangers. Sadly, it was not.

Calling Jon is "emasculated" is something Randall Tarly would call Sam. Sorry, that criticism makes me uncomfortable because Jon was never an alpha male or defined only by action hero masculinity. I think the writers are ignoring Jon's thoughtfulness and perception, but they do understand his honor has no place in wildling country. Ygritte making fun of him for it is very much a part of his character because she's always had the power in their relationship. It just looks more magnified on screen, I think.

#22 Reposado

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 06:35 PM

. I would not vote this guy as my next Lord Commander. .


pyp's votes for dolorous edd will taken much more seriously in the show. he might be the best option

#23 Direwolf Lager

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 06:38 PM

besides from the casting of Ygritte, HBO has butchered the Jon Snow storyline. however, there is a chance for redemption in the fight with qhorin halfhand

#24 SerMixalot

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 06:42 PM

For me I cant get over how much snow there is and how open the fist is. Yes it is undeniably beautiful, breathtaking even.

but the problem is in the book there wasnt really much snow at this point, esp at the fist.

THis becomes important cause it plays a critical part in the assasination attempt on Lord Mormont. Chett specifically says they cannot go through with the plan cause the snow will make tracking them far too easy.

That and the wide opern terrain, makes tracking them again far too easy.

Of course they will likely eliminate the plotpoint, no big loss in the scheme of things, but the long journey through the woods was sort of critical to the retreat from the Fist.

and is it me or is sam just too happy on the fist

#25 Faraday

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:00 PM

They'll probably get the John/Halfhand thing right, though. I liked them setting the seeds for it last episode. Makes it a bit less sudden. I recall thinking in the book the wildling's would be sort of stupid to even consider it, but I think here it might make some sense given how it's played out. Still don't really like it.

At least Rattleshirt looked pretty cool (if different)

#26 LordofWinter

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:11 PM

I can't decide if it is the scenes that are the problem or possibly the acting? Forgive me if I'm way off but Kit Harington no longer seems like Jon Snow this season. And seriously- where is Ghost?


for that i blame the writers. they've changed so much of the story at this point he almost isn't. like The Third Reed said, "I wouldn't want him to be my Lord Commander" the whole reason he's believable as the youngest Lord Commander in history(in the books) is because he has continually shown proof of his intelligence, skill, adaptation and leadership skills. This guy on screen is the skinny Samwell Tarly.

#27 All-for-Joffrey

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:19 PM

Honestly I don't think he's changed that much from the books. At this point in the story Jon was still a vain, slightly arrogant, naive boy who wanted to go on the biwg wanging. It's during the third book that he undergoes a lot of character growth into a leader. I like some of the changes they've made, like make him responsible for Qhourin's capture and the party's downfall. It gives his "turncloak" plotline more depth and meaning. I think there are characters that have actually been substantially changed much more than Jon, such as Cersei, Littlefinger, Loras, Renly, Margarey, Tywin (to some extent), etc. I suppose a lot of people are upset with the character of Jon being brought down to earth because he's such a perfect Gary-Stu in the books (which is completely unrealistic). Also, god forbid he's captured led around by a GURL (cooties,ew) for his stupidity rather than having herself throwing him at him saying "you captured me, I'm yours Jon Snow." Clearly it's "emasculating." :

#28 David Selig

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:24 PM

for that i blame the writers. they've changed so much of the story at this point he almost isn't. like The Third Reed said, "I wouldn't want him to be my Lord Commander" the whole reason he's believable as the youngest Lord Commander in history(in the books) is because he has continually shown proof of his intelligence, skill, adaptation and leadership skills. This guy on screen is the skinny Samwell Tarly.

Sam is way smarter than this, don't insult him.

#29 Mulled Wino

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:40 PM

Its emasculating to take someone captive, then have them set you up then make you their prisoner- then have her say shes gonna cut your balls off if you run.

Its emasculating to have someone take your own sword and beat your ass with it.

Its emasculating to have to beg to go ranging as opposed to being selected by the best ranger for his team.

3 examples if deviations that make snow look bad for no reason. And there's a lot more. He's been incompetent thus far and looked like a boob. Sam tarly looks more comfortable than he does.

I thought he was gonna cry when Gilly was asking him for help.

#30 SerMixalot

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:41 PM

for me I go back to D&D's perception of Jon and I think they are off. THey perceive Jon as a kid with a chip on his shoulder (correct), but that chip was there because he lacked a father figure. WHAT? Ned Stark treated him like a son to his wife's constant chagrin, he was raised and trained by Ser Rodrik Badass, taught by wise Luwin. He was surrounded by powerful male role models. What he lacked was a loving mother figure.

That supposed lack of relationship has supposedly resulted in a brash pig headed youth. Again WHAT? He quickly learned the lesson of leading his fellow trainees. He is certainly prickly when it comes to honor and acted without thinking (the alisar thorne incident), but he learned well from that lesson.

By this point in the story he has grown from leaving winterfell. He wouldnt have talked back to craster. Mormont still treats him like a unwanted stepchild. The point being is that the NW could see his worth and he was living up to and learning well by this point. Not doing stupid things.

Again, I think it comes back to D&D's incorrect perception of Jon

#31 House Snow

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:51 PM

Honestly I don't think he's changed that much from the books. At this point in the story Jon was still a vain, slightly arrogant, naive boy who wanted to go on the biwg wanging. It's during the third book that he undergoes a lot of character growth into a leader. I like some of the changes they've made, like make him responsible for Qhourin's capture and the party's downfall. It gives his "turncloak" plotline more depth and meaning. I think there are characters that have actually been substantially changed much more than Jon, such as Cersei, Littlefinger, Loras, Renly, Margarey, Tywin (to some extent), etc. I suppose a lot of people are upset with the character of Jon being brought down to earth because he's such a perfect Gary-Stu in the books (which is completely unrealistic). Also, god forbid he's captured led around by a GURL (cooties,ew) for his stupidity rather than having herself throwing him at him saying "you captured me, I'm yours Jon Snow." Clearly it's "emasculating." :


Excellent analysis. I think the show is rightfully trying to undo the Gary-stuness of Jon and the MAry-sue ness of Dany. In fact if there is a common theme in the changes they have made to characters from Renly to Cersi on down its almost always been to highligh the CHANGE that the character will make through there story. I like that.

#32 hiddenaway

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:51 PM

Jon Snow's character arc will be more developed next season when he transitions from a boy into a leader.

I'm perfectly find with them portraying Jon in this season more as an arrogant bumkin. It will make his change into the Lord Commander and the leader of the Night's Watch that more dramatic.

The change of Jon from "boy" to "man" will begin when he has to kill Quorin. I like how they are making that Jon's first kill (outside of the wight) instead of the wildling who changes into an eagle. He's got to kill one of his mentors and his friends, then he has to turn on everything he believes in to join the wildlings. He's going to come a long way in the next two seasons, don't rush his development or pre-judge based on this season alone.

#33 Mulled Wino

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:58 PM

The thing that gets me is every change for the book that involves jon, makes him look like more of an incompetent clown and there is no reason for it.

So he was more arrogant, younger or whatever at this point and became a better leader later. None of that matters to the point of him bumbling around, getting lost, not contributing anything, losing his wolf (i can only assume he lost ghost because, well where the fuck is he?).

Its already been made clear that the wildlings would immediately kill the Halfhand and torture him immediately upon capture. Would rattleshirt risk having him the losing him trying to bring him to mance? And on top of that, would The Halfhand really have given up any info to the wildlings?



#34 Arrogant Bastard

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:07 PM

Yeah, Jon's story has been a pretty massive disappointment this season. Plus, he's either acted like either a total nincompoop or a gutless boob in every episode this season. Mormont and Qhorin have been calling him stupid all season long, and for good reason. He just acts like an idiot, especially with his lame chase of Ygritte when it wasn't clear if he just sucks at beheading or actually missed purposefully.

#35 Hear Us Roar

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:07 PM

I agree. He is a moron on the show or at the very least comes of as dim witted.

#36 Mulled Wino

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:08 PM

Really, so the changes with tyrion and littlefinger are going to enhance their arc's by showing a more drastic change in their personalitites?

The Gary Stu argument is a valid point but the producers are threatening to undermine their idea (if in fact it is their idea, which i doubt) by making him such a boob.

#37 ARYa_Nym

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:09 PM

About Ghost it doesn't make sense that he just disappeared like that and he did initially have Ghost with him while he was with Ygritte. Ghost did have the tendency to go off by himself though and Jon had no idea where he was going or what he was doing but not at this point in the story.

#38 summer_stark

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:41 PM

About Ghost it doesn't make sense that he just disappeared like that and he did initially have Ghost with him while he was with Ygritte. Ghost did have the tendency to go off by himself though and Jon had no idea where he was going or what he was doing but not at this point in the story.


are you talking about in the show? because jon definitely did not have ghost with him in the show when he was with ygritte. the last time we saw ghost was when he was leaving w/qhorin and jon tries to call ghost but ghost wont come and qhorin says it's b/c direwolves are wild -- which to me was a blatant falsehood w/r/t their relationship to their owners. the direwolves are connected to their masters -- and that connection helps them know when their masters are in danger, which is how they are almost always around to defend them.

here, ghost should know where jon is, or at the very least, should be able to track him -- not only that, but getting captured is a time when jon would be feeling fearful, which would immediately alert ghost to his need to come back and defend jon. the lack of ghost at this point is a blatant plot hole that makes no sense. the direwolves, and especially ghost, go off to hunt for long periods -- but never to the detriment of their owners --

that's part of the whole mystique surrounding the stark's relationship w/their dw -- that they are so connected that the dw can sense their feelings and know when they are needed, when they are being threatened (e.g., summer coming in to save bran at the last moment -- when bran wasn't even conscious; nymeria running up and biting joffrey; ghost feeling the otherworldly threat of the wight; summer, grey wind and shaggydog nearly attacking tyrion b/c robb felt threatened etc).

in the books, the reason that ghost isn't along for this part of the journey is that he cant climb the skirling pass -- but here, there is no such impediment. it's only after they come down off of the pass that ghost rejoins them -- or jon goes to ghost b/c ghost was attacked by the eagle -- can't remember exact timing of the sequence.

either way, ghost's failure to protect jon at this point makes no sense. not only is he emotionally connected to jon such that he can feel jon's fear etc., he is also a master hunter, who should have no problem tracking jon.

Edited by summer_stark, 21 May 2012 - 08:42 PM.


#39 ARYa_Nym

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:46 PM

I was referring to the books. Jon initially used Ghost to keep Ygritte away from him. Ghost didn't leave him until after he slept with Ygritte.

#40 hiddenaway

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 10:46 PM

Everyone I've spoken to who is a fan of the show but hasn't read the books really enjoys Jon, he's their one of their favorite chracters. Their sentiments haven't changed in season 2. And even though he's been less than impressive this season (or less impressive than he was in COK) it doesn't make them like him any less or make them think he's an "idiot".

That's only hardcore book fans who are complaining that his character is somehow ruined b/c he allowed himself to get surprised by Craster and allowed Ygritte to take him a few times. He's out in the wild by himself for the first time, lost his older ranger support crew, and he's supposed to be a badass? That's why they got rid of Ghost for the time being, to show the vulnerability of Jon. He has or had hardcore notions about "honor" like every other Stark in the show (Ned, Rob, Arya, Sansa) and they are going to get challenged by the real world. Ygritte ripping Jon was part of that. I don't really see how the character arc is dramatically changed.

Who said anything about the changes to LIttlefinger and Tyrion enhancing their arcs? I was speaking of Snow, who needs to get beat up a bit and shit on as the green boy that he is before he becomes the steely leader he will become. I just don't see how these changes "ruin" Jon.