[Book Spoilers] The Whitewashing of Tyrion
Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:36 AM
But then again show Shae is even more of a change. I'm not sure to be honest where they are going her character, unless the final beytrayal at the trial is going to make Tyrion's killing her seem completely and utterly justified. At least the character on the show is still watchable......unlike a young wolf and a certain nurse I can think of.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 05:25 AM
Her betrayal came as a bit of a surprise in the books with little mention of her while Tyrion was imprisoned. Perhaps they will really build her up as Tyrion's true love, promising escape for Sansa, before the revelations shock the audience.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 06:22 AM
Though maybe HBO wants to make his moral conflicts more shocking and harder to digest by starting his road into getting a darker soul more slowly, hinted at, only to be shockingly bold when it comes to the real stuff like murdering Shae and Tywin. I also think that we will get more of Tyrion's inner conflicts concerning the Sansa marriage, since the books only gave us her POV and everything discussed about it in these forums is mainly based on assumption and deduction. Dinklage as the great actor that he is would be able to make us perceive some of the conflicts that are not directly given to us in the books.
Yes I want Tyrion highlighted in his darker parts as well, I want to see his craving for love and friendship, the better or sadder parts of his sex life (we won't see his wedding night boner, won't we Mr. Dinklage? Guess we won't see Jaime in the bathtub either, Mr. Coster-Waldau ? ) I want to see his misanthropy, his disturbed emotions, his intelligence and openmindedness as well. No, , seriously, I want to see all his positive and evil aspects, only that way I can value all the possibilities yet to come of this hugely interesting literary invention.
But I have trust into the enormous possibilities of Peter Dinklage. I think the medium TV slmply has to be bolder, more flashy and less subtle to pass a message.
And the interaction between Cersei and Tyrion I like even better than in the books. When Tyrion tries to reach out to Cersei but doesn't know how after she just breaks down - this is great acting from both Dinklage and Headey, so touching. Yes, the grey characters are so much more interesting than the good guys and girls, the range of what they have to offer is so much bigger.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 06:41 AM
Posted 22 May 2012 - 06:44 AM
i thnk they still have time to build conflict with his father, denying him Castlery Rock, condemning hime to death, basic humiliation of tyriion.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 10:16 AM
Oh man. I dont want to open up another "is Shae a bad person" debate, but I would scream at the TV if they portrayed Tyrion's killing of her as justified. The whitewashing would be complete. To avoid that, they might want to write a new scene that shows someone at court coercing her to testify against him. She can decide to sleep with Tywin if she wants; that choice doesn't deserve MURDER but it might make Shae more morally complex if she's thinking she's "on the job" the whole time. But who knows, they may decide to make her Tywins mole from the beginning.
I'm kind of wary about the marriage. I doubt they will show his desire to fuck Sansa, because the entire season he's been acting like nothing but a courtly gentleman toward her. His chivalry (the last word I would use to describe him) around Sansa makes me gag. ShowTyrion also doesn't seem to have BookTyrion's sexual appetites.
Edited by Keep Shelly in Athens, 22 May 2012 - 10:19 AM.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:00 AM
Maybe because it's so physically implausible? I don't know, it made me shake my head while reading as well. So his 'wife' is being pillaged by a bunch of guards, and he is then able to ....perform? He's physically aroused? It's either a tale of horror or it's not, and if it's horrific then he doesn't have an erection. I think making him watch makes much more sense.
(sorry for the thread derail...yes, Tyrion's character has been whitewashed).
Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:00 AM
THIS. Absolutely. Of course it's impossible to get all of this in the midst of all else that needs to go into the show, but really, the dark side is woefully absent. Thank God for Peter Dinklage or this character would be a disaster. He's the reason Tyrion has any hint of intelligence or depth this season, although I do think that element was there in Season 1.
I suspect we have differing opinions wrt Tyrion and/or Shae (I do think she was "on the job" the entire time with both Tyrion and Tywin) but I have to agree with you here. Her murder is important to show that dark side of Tyrion- a Tywinesque dark side ("I believe I'm you writ small") that should be out there.
100% YES. Tired of getting hit over the head with the foreshadowing. And I think there should have been at least one sex scene between Tyrion/Shae as it's a vital indicator of what their relationship really is vs. what Tyrion hopes/dreams it is. Instead we get all the playing house hubby/wife setup- she even lives with him, for God's sake, as if no one would notice or discover this but Varys, esp. considering the tower of the hand seems to have been consolidated into the royal apartments. In the book he goes to her when he wants a fuck, either purely for sexual gratification or for reassurance/validity of his masculinity, and he convinces himself it all means something to her like it does for him.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:54 AM
Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:59 AM
Excellent post. In order to get a fully-developed characterization, we have to get the bad with the good. I don't mind Tyrion being made to look better this season. As I said, this is the book where Tyrion is at his highest point. Hand of the King, people to do his bidding, his relationship with Shae, etc. If we get the whitewashed Tyrion next season, that will be a big disappointment and would do an injustice to the character.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 02:32 PM
I do agree with others in hoping they show Tyrion's desire to have sex with Sansa after they are married. Even though Tyrion feels sorry for her, in this world of political marriages, it still makes sense that he would physically want her, despite it being wrong, because she is still a very beautiful young woman. Especially so to Tyrion, considering he is no Jaime Lannister in the looks department.
I mean this in the most non perverted way, but I hope they have Tyrion and Sansa get married in season 4. I am pretty sure they are doing ASoS in two seasons, and by the time they shoot the fourth season, Sophie Turner should be old enough to do their wedding night like in the book. Her being old enough is important, to really show what Sansa went through, and if she is not old enough to do the wedding night properly, then it will be a serious injustice to Sansa's character. Just like with Dany and Drogo, the audience needs to see what Sansa has to go through, that way they can really put themselves in her shoes. That's part of the reason why Emilia Clarke was ok with going nude for her scenes with Drogo and stuff, she felt like it was important to show that. I know it might sound perverted, but I hope Sophie Turner feels the same way about it, when she comes of age, because that grittiness is part of what makes the books so good.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 02:55 PM
But I believe the marriage will be in season 3, considering Tyrion is the new main character D&D might see a chance to bring some informations, we know only out of his inner monologues, in conversations between Sansa and him, when he tried to comfort her. The story, he always wanted a dragon etc. for example.
Edited by Pellaeon, 22 May 2012 - 03:22 PM.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 02:58 PM
However, in ASOS, he certainly didn't help her by sneaking up on her with the marriage - he could have done way more than he did, but his dark side, his desires took over.
Of course, HBO still have plenty of time to set that up - as has been pointed out, he is far from the only character that is being white-washed to some degree (Shae herself is another - way more sympathetic than in the books) and it may be doubtful a truly grey Tyrion would be well-received by the bulk of the TV audience, even on HBO (they lack the POV structure to sympathise with his feelings and reasonings). They will still have to darken him considerably as a lead-in to his Essos wanderings. I guess Tywin will not be portrayed in a sympathetic light during the trial either, and his desire to get his son killed will be shown less ambiguously to make Tyrion's motives even more obvious.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:04 PM
my feeling exactly. whenever that story comes up, it makes my blood boil and then I realize how fictional it really is.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:07 PM
Now after they are married, yes, he has some desire to sleep with her. But I think it is more because he is drunk and she is now his wife, so she is kinda obligated.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:43 PM
I thought once he discovered she was a "whore," his attitude toward her changed and he began to treat her like one. Like, he wasn't thinking "hey you're hurting my wife," he was thinking "damn, I was tricked by this trick. It sucks, but I better do what my asshole father says!" He believes (misguidedly) that women who service men for a living can't be raped, traumatized, or wed. Anyone else have a different interpretation?
Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:49 PM
That's not what I got, probably because he ended up falling for Shae. I think Tyrion really loved Tyesha (sp) and doesn't have that stigma attached to whores. He was resigned to whores after that, but I think that's because he always felt awkward around women, not because of what his father did.
If you loved someone as much as Tyrion claims he did his first love, I just don't see how you can finish the rape train.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:09 PM
Even if that where the case, in that scenario I think it's highly unlikely that he would be able to join in. Even, or maybe especially, under orders from his father. People just aren't wired like that...even the Tyrion from the books. It makes more sense that he was made to watch.
As for how it played out in the book, my recollection is that the rape scene happened, and then it wasn't until much later that he was told (by Jaime I think??) that she had actually been a hired prostitute. ...I could be way off.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:13 PM
But to be honest if they whitewash his character as they have done this season, I think we will see Tyrion behaving like a Prince towards her on the wedding night and not marrying her to become Lord of Winterfell. I also doubt he will know Tywin is planning to kill Robb so that Tyrion can have Winterfell as in the books (not that Tyrion knew the specifics), but Tywin did talk about when Robb was dead infront of him and strongly hinted a plot to remove Robb was afoot.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:18 PM
They showed him at his best early in the season, when he outplayed Pycelle, but since the last few episodes he hasn't been doing much. It's a bit disappointing. TV viewers and book readers alike are fond of Tyrion, so it appears they're making him the "cool guy" more and more, but at the cost of his character depth. Well, at least the character isn't ruined yet, but it's a bit of a pity, IMO.