112 replies to this topic

[Ser Hippie]

Mad Queen, on 21 May 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

It's not about anyone in particular. The Westerlings hardly matter as characters.

Okay...if you're upset we're losing the Westerling betrayal in general, that's one thing. I just don't understand what it has to do with making the Red Wedding less interesting, since the Westerlings are explicitly kept out of that (Sybelle being furious at Jaime because it led to Raynald's death). The Freys/Boltons/Tywin did that on their own.

The substantive betrayal we're losing is Tywin ensuring Robb didn't have an heir...which might be intentional (or might now, no way to know).

Edited by Ser Hippie, 22 May 2012 - 02:05 AM.

[Rapsie]

Ser Hippie, on 22 May 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

The substantive betrayal we're losing is Tywin ensuring Robb didn't have an heir...which might be intentional (or might now, no way to know).

It takes away a lot. I wonder if the Lannisters will have any involvement with the Red Wedding now, or if it will be toned down to the Freys offer to change sides and all the Lannisters are shocked at their actions. Yet another ripple of the butterfly effect. The only way it will work is if she has been Tywin Lannister's spy since the beginning.

The introduction of Talissa has given valuable screen time to a very cliched romance which I would not have a problem with if

a) The writing was better and not as someone on another thread pointed out, sounding as if it was a WWI drama.
B ) Her screen time has prevented actual time being spent on other characters whose bad story and motivations have been left out.

Things they could have done whilst we had the pointless CPR in Volantis storyline.

a)The psychopath that is Gregor Clegane is just absent this season. That quick line from book one about gouging out scouts eyes if they don't report anything could have been inserted at the table discussion at Harrenhal and given Arya a better reason to jump ship given that she would have to be his cup bearer. 20 seconds of dialogue put to good use.

B ) A quick shot of Ser Dontos trying to hit Sansa with rotten veg before she was beaten, so the audience doesn't forget who he is and the escape attempt won't now seem really out of the blue.

c) After the riot Tyrion telling Sandor Clegane fleabottom was on fire, so we could actually get he is terrified of fire. A good build up to Blackwater. 30 seconds of dialogue.

d) The Tyrion posioning Cersei so then when the trial comes around in season 4, it will be more memorable that Tyrion did have Pycelle's poisions. (Tyrion may have been innocent but the circumstantial evidence was fairly vast) Maybe two minutes of a scene.

e) More about the Wildlings and Tyrion needing them and the sellswords to maintain his position against his sister. A 10 - 20 second conversation with Bronn.

f) Better exposition on Stannis and Davos.

g) Not rushed every Sansa scene and actually given her as a POV character, some of the important parts of her arc.

Actually I'll stop now. There are just so many things they could have done better with that time.

Edited by Rapsie, 22 May 2012 - 04:48 AM.

[KC_Accidental]

I agree that the writing for her scenes have generally been poor and I have big reservations about the way she spends more time at Robb's side than his generals or other soldiers. His men are now so accustomed to her being there that when his rider approaches he addresses her as well as Robb! Roose Bolton taking leave from Robb's tent and saying "my lady" is fine, that is common courtesy though I would suspect he wouldn't bother in the books as she is just a commoner. I'll let it slide though. But soldiers addressing her as a noble when giving vital news to their King?! NO!

Anyway I think last nights scene with Talissa giving her back story was very well done. I think they have tried to humanise her character with good morals so Robb has something to be attracted to morally. She's a good woman and Robb see's that. I think that is very well done but the execution up until that scene has been woeful and Robb himself has been dire (wolf). "I don't want to marry the Frey girl" stinks of being a petulant little teenager. I get that he IS a teenager or there abouts but he shouldn't be a petulant complaining little shit. But Talissa's story not only tells us that she's a good woman and like Robb and Ned she doesn't care about gold, glory and all the other noble nonsense but it also gives us a nice little insight into Volantis.

I'm not sure why people are complaining so much about her not being Jeyne though. I get that it was confusing at first, not knowing if it was her or not but do people actually cry out at night because they're not getting a character we knew almost nothing about? My memories of Jeyne are that she cried a lot. I think it's also much better that there's an actual love interest here and not some noble bint shacking up with Robb after knowing him for a couple days. It could also be seen as taking advantage on both their parts. One from the point of view of captor and prisoner, and the other because she knew Robb was distraught and grieving over his brothers deaths. I mean come on, does that actually ever happen in real life? "aww you're upset about someone dying, here let me get into bed with you and *&*^&%*&£(*& your **£*$&£*$"

So overall I'm happy with the outcome but full heartedly agree that the scenes could have been done better or put to better use. "There's a war going on" Really? I couldn't have guessed it! Everyone sits on their arses all day talking to people they shouldn't be talking to.

[Mad Queen]

Ser Hippie, on 22 May 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

Okay...if you're upset we're losing the Westerling betrayal in general, that's one thing. I just don't understand what it has to do with making the Red Wedding less interesting, since the Westerlings are explicitly kept out of that (Sybelle being furious at Jaime because it led to Raynald's death).

I don't mean the wedding itself, but the whole setup that leads to it.

[Silverx2]

TheSwordOfTheEvening, on 21 May 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

, but why would a highborn lady be serving as a nurse in an enemy camp..

I'm pretty sure, i mean like 85% sure here, that she told you specifically why she went from playing the harp to cutting off peoples feet.

[Silverx2]

Mad Queen, on 21 May 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

So is she not a Lannister spy? If there's no trap for Robb, no plotting going on to create a falling-out between Starks and Freys, the Red Wedding will be less interesting.

i think what made the red wedding interesting, and the reason it got its name was all of the MURDERING

[birdsong66]

Quote

d) The Tyrion posioning Cersei so then when the trial comes around in season 4, it will be more memorable that Tyrion did have Pycelle's poisions. (Tyrion may have been innocent but the circumstantial evidence was fairly vast) Maybe two minutes of a scene.

Add to the above, this scene coincides with Tyrion sitting the Iron Throne and pledging in front of the entire court his intention to exchange Jaime for the Stark girl if Jaime is returned unharmed.  Instead, we get a secret plan hatched between LF and Tyrion, two great players in the game, with not a single person to witness it.

And, of course, there is no joy knowing that Tyrion out smarted Cercei, again, and now she's got a case of the shits.  LOL.

[Patchface12]

I still think she's Jeyne Westerling. How they would explain it/ pull it off in the show will be very interesting

Edited by Patchface12, 22 May 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[Patchface12]

ghost the direwolf, on 21 May 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

I forgave Robb in the book because of his state of mind, but this one i cannot. no excuse what so ever.

Maybe not, but someone pointed out maybe feeling betrayed by Catelyn was what pushed him to Jeyne in the show, which still works IMO. She was the one who forbid him and then she betrayed him, why listen to her anymore?

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

I think she is Jeyne.  She gave her Grandma's back story.  She is in on something with Roose, that's why they give each other strange looks in passing.  It is why Roose wants Ramsay at Winterfell so bad, because it is part of the plan for the Boltons to be in Winterfell.  No Weasel Soup. because it is already planned out with Tywin that Roose take Harrenhall for his info regarding Robb's plans, info that is given to Talisa/Jeyne from Roose, and sent to Tywin.  The person she would have most likely seen in the Crag, for her needs, is her Maester, who is probably in on the plan.  It was  not planned for Talisa/Jeyne to fall in love with Robb, this changes what happens, meaning the Red Wedding and the Frey's entering into the Roose/Tywin partnership.

[protar]

Of all the unnecessary changes they've made to this season, this is the worst I think. Due to Robb's story not appearing on-screen in the books, D+D had a unique opportunity to use their own creative abilities, while being faithful to the books and even better increasing our understanding of the books. That they've replaced that brilliant potential with this cliched romance is quite frankly an insult to book fans.

I can only assume that they didn't think that Jeyne was a strong enough character, because god-forbid they have any weak female characters for fear of being seen as sexist, even when it's amongst a dozen strong female characters. It's the same thing they're doing with Shae and Tyrion as well, turning them into some sassy, exotic, backtalking badasses which completely misses the point of these characters. They really could have just expanded upon the actual character in the books just as easily and if they wanted to make her a bit stronger they could've taken some queues from Sansa who I think Jeyne was probably similar to.

And I'm not even going to get into the whole thing about Robb not finding out about Bran and Rickon's "deaths" before sleeping with Jeyne.

[atia-]

I knew something was fishy after reading this blog entry by GRRM: http://grrm.livejour...0.html#comments - read the first comment.  Edit: even if he's messing with people, it was still accurate.  Lots of people are confused now as to who she really is.

Edited by hk47, 22 May 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[The Smiling Eye]

Guys... what is the Red Wedding doesn't happen?

What a tweeeest!

[Patchface12]

hk47, on 22 May 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

I knew something was fishy after reading this blog entry by GRRM: http://grrm.livejour...0.html#comments - read the first comment (that's me )

I think Martin once said Syrio is dead. However, if Syrio is a Faceless Man, its highly possible the real Syrio is died in the House of Black and White years before GoT and now one of their assassins is using his face. Martin is crafty fellow. I wouldn't take his words at face value

[CrypticWeirwood]

chickenly, on 22 May 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

I think she is Jeyne. She gave her Grandma's back story. She is in on something with Roose, that's why they give each other strange looks in passing. It is why Roose wants Ramsay at Winterfell so bad, because it is part of the plan for the Boltons to be in Winterfell.  

Yes, exactly. Plus don’t forget the spy-letters she was writing!

This is surely one of the most satisfying and inspired of the remarkably few changes that the showrunners have introduced vis-à-vis the books. They are all to be lauded and applauded for their inspired work here, as is Ms Chaplin. You couldn’t ask for better.

[protar]

hk47, on 22 May 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

I knew something was fishy after reading this blog entry by GRRM: http://grrm.livejour...0.html#comments - read the first comment (that's me )

I think you may have gotten trolled by George R.R. Martin himself. Congratulations.

I wonder what he thinks of the changes to Robb and Jeyne's romance?

[protar]

CrypticWeirwood, on 22 May 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Yes, exactly. Plus don’t forget the spy-letters she was writing! This is surely one of the most satisfying and inspired of the remarkably few changes that the showrunners have introduced vis-à-vis the books. They are all to be lauded and applauded for their inspired work here, as is Ms Chaplin. You couldn’t ask for better.

Are you being serious? I'm honestly asking, because I can't tell whether that's sarcasm or not. You seem so oblivious to the deviations from the books that I really can't be sure anymore.

[atia-]

Quote

I think you may have gotten trolled by George R.R. Martin himself. Congratulations.

I wonder what he thinks of the changes to Robb and Jeyne's romance?

Not sure if you were trying to be mean or not.  But I feel honored to be trolled by GRRM.  Hah.  I have no clue what he's thinking of it.

Edited by hk47, 22 May 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[Patchface12]

Even if she is Jeyne Westerling, what on earth is she doing posing as a medic and spying for Tywin Lannister?

Regardless of her identity, this might be one of the best or the absolute worst changes from the books in the show

[RL Terrill]

Patchface12, on 22 May 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

Even if she is Jeyne Westerling, what on earth is she doing posing as a medic and spying for Tywin Lannister? Regardless of her identity, this might be one of the best or the absolute worst changes from the books in the show

Westerlings are Bannermen to Casterly Rock, seems reasonable if indeed that is where the writers are taking us.