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[Book spoilers] They ruined Robb Stark


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#41 dtones520

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:42 PM

Yes, but we know he'll marry her, and it appears he already decided that he would. "I don't want to marry the Frey girl".


Your right, we all know he will marry her, because we have read the books. TV viewers don't necessarily know that. They aren't making this tv show just for book readers. They are making a tv series that makes sense for all parties involved. You have to over dramatize things on tv, so you have to play up Robb falling in love with someone or him marrying some random he banged wouldn't make sense to people.

#42 Ramsay Gimp

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:43 PM

If they had to change Robb and Jeyne's story, I think I may have thought of a way that could work. I'd like your guys thoughts, because it's kind of...edgy, I guess.

Robb takes the Crag, and meets Jeyne, the daughter of the Lord. He is attracted to her, and she him despite being his "prisoner." But when he gets word of Bran and Rickon's deaths, he loses his cool and orders his men to burn the castle before they march out. Jeyne gets hysterical about the destruction of her home and gives Robb shit. Robb, mad with grief and rage but also turned on by her, up and rapes her. Yep - it would add another dimension to a character that I feel is pretty flat in the show and books - even the honorable do-gooder Young Wolf can succumb to his worst urges. He's a horny adolescent with monarchical power, after all. The next day, he is overcome with shame and remorse. He feels he has let his father down, and can't bear the dishonor he brought on himself and her. So, he does the right thing as he sees it and marries her. I think this would make his actions actually more understandable - it's just kind of silly that a King would feel obligated to marry the first wench he screws unless he felt like he really owed her something.

Thoughts?

Edited by Ramsay Gimp, 21 May 2012 - 08:45 PM.


#43 Ser Hippie

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:45 PM

Robb raping Jeyne would be cause to genuinely think his character was ruined, in my opinion.

#44 Arrogant Bastard

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:47 PM

If they had to change Robb and Jeyne's story, I think I may have thought of a way that could work. I'd like your guys thoughts, because it's kind of...edgy, I guess. Robb takes the Crag, and meets Jeyne, the daughter of the Lord. He is attracted to her, and she him despite being his "prisoner." But when he gets word of Bran and Rickon's deaths, he loses his cool and orders his men to burn the castle before they march out. Jeyne gets hysterical about the destruction of her home and gives Robb shit. Robb, mad with grief and rage but also turned on by her, up and rapes her. Yep - it would add another dimension to a character that I feel is pretty flat in the show and books - even the honorable do-gooder Young Wolf can succumb to his worst urges. He's a horny adolescent with monarchical power, after all. The next day, he is overcome with shame and remorse. He feels he has let his father down, and can't bear the dishonor he brought on himself and her. So, he does the right thing as he sees it and marries her. I think this would make his actions actually more understandable - it's just kind of silly that a King would feel obligated to marry the first wench he screws unless he felt like he really owed her something. Thoughts?


Honestly, that sounds absolutely horrible.

#45 SerMixalot

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:47 PM

better than this seasons storyline, but you will be hard pressed to find a network willing to make a "hero" into a rapist.

#46 SerMixalot

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:48 PM

plus i couldnt imagine a rape victim agreeing to a marriage to her rapist.

the consensual 1 night stand that results in a pregnancy and deflowring of a high born maiden is truer to the essence of ASOIAF

#47 Mad Queen

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:49 PM

I cannot imagine Ned's son raping a girl.

#48 ThePrinceOfSunspear

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:51 PM

I didn't have a problem with them showing his romance with Jeyne on-screen rather than off. But that isn't what they've done, now is it. They made up a totally different story instead, and it unfortunately, it just. plain. sucks even when ignoring the books. Not only that, but I would go so far as to say that it goes completely against Robb's character.

Let's summarize here. Book-Robb is a boy of 15 (full of raging hormones); he took an injury at the Crag; he heard of his brothers's deaths and is grieving. During all that he is "comforted" by a woman in a moment of understandable weakness. After that happens, he feels honour-bound to marry her. Book-Robb is the son of Ned Stark, and just like Ned, he takes oaths and hononour seriously. He would have never deliberately broken his vow to the Freys like that, and when it does happen, he feels stupid and terrible and tries his hardest to make amends.

TV-Robb: is a man grown (I assume he's supposed to be 18-20?); he is not injured; he has not learned of Bran and Rickon's deaths and is not grieving. He's not in any sort of particular trouble. He even had his mother around to remind him of his duty and his oath to the Freys. Yet he's palling around with some sexy wench and clearly states he doesn't want to marry the Frey girl. He deliberately breaks his vow and doesn't even have second thoughts about it.

What made Robb sympathetic was because he was so much like Ned, and took his oath and his honour so seriously, and he was young and naive, and he actually married Jeyne because of his Ned-like honour as a Stark. There is none, and absolutely none of that in his story with Talissa. Not only is the story contrary to the spirit of the novel, but even judged by its own merit as TV, it's bad. It's a clichéd Hollywood romance with little believability to it. And it takes away a lot of the tragedy of the Red Wedding since Robb pretty much has it coming. Personally the Red Wedding made me upset because of Catelyn's suffering (losing her "last" son) and death more than Robb's death, but by giving more attention to Robb, the TV series could have changed that. Well, so much for that... /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' />


WORD

I can't add anything else except how shitty this show has becoming.....

#49 Ramsay Gimp

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:52 PM

Robb raping Jeyne would be cause to genuinely think his character was ruined, in my opinion.


You sure that's not just a knee-jerk reaction on your part? People do crazy things after major trauma in their lives - see Catelyn freeing Jaime. He has just found out that his foster brother, a close friend, has not only betrayed him but murdered his two actual brothers. I would want to lash out in that situation, and Theon is a long ways away. Who would be the convenient target for your rage at that point? I think the enemy family whose castle you are occupying, vassals of the Lannisters who killed your old man, are as good a punching bag as any.

Again, it would be a moment of temporary insanity, if you will. But I feel like doing right by her would provide a strong motive for breaking his oath to the Freys. He would have to do right by Jeyne after that, as a Stark. But marrying her after a consensual one-night stand is just boneheaded and frankly hard to wrap my head around. I think GRRM could have provided a stronger motive

And for those saying that the family would never agree to a marriage after that, what better choice would they have? She's been deflowered and dishonored, and might be carrying his child anyway. And she's being offered a chance to be Queen of the North from a man who is genuinely remorseful

Edited by Ramsay Gimp, 21 May 2012 - 08:57 PM.


#50 Ser Hippie

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:55 PM

Yeah, I'm 100% sure that isn't a knee-jerk reaction. Not only does it not make sense from an in-universe point of view, it pretty much permanently tarnishes Robb from a meta point of view for TV viewers. Rape is one of those things that people are going to have a really hard time forgiving a character for.

#51 Morrigan

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:59 PM

Your right, we all know he will marry her, because we have read the books. TV viewers don't necessarily know that. They aren't making this tv show just for book readers. They are making a tv series that makes sense for all parties involved. You have to over dramatize things on tv, so you have to play up Robb falling in love with someone or him marrying some random he banged wouldn't make sense to people.

What's your point? That my thread is premature and that I should have waited until after the marriage before declaring the storyline stupid? Eh, whatever.

If they had to change Robb and Jeyne's story, I think I may have thought of a way that could work. I'd like your guys thoughts, because it's kind of...edgy, I guess. [rape BS snip] Thoughts?

That's.... honestly, that's the stupidest idea I've EVER read in the history of this forum. I know I rag on D&D being shit writers a lot, but I sure am glad that it's them and not you. Sheesh.

Yeah, I'm 100% sure that isn't a knee-jerk reaction. Not only does it not make sense from an in-universe point of view, it pretty much permanently tarnishes Robb from a meta point of view for TV viewers. Rape is one of those things that people are going to have a really hard time forgiving a character for.

Seriously...

#52 Ramsay Gimp

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:01 PM

^Drogo raped Dany and he was a fan favorite. In fact, he and Dany formed a loving relationship afterwards

The idea isn't perfect, I'll grant. That's why I said if they HAD to change it from the book. But it would be infinitely better than this fucking Along Came Polly bullshit

Edited by Ramsay Gimp, 21 May 2012 - 09:04 PM.


#53 Arrogant Bastard

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:02 PM

You sure that's not just a knee-jerk reaction on your part? People do crazy things after major trauma in their lives - see Catelyn freeing Jaime. He has just found out that his foster brother, a close friend, has not only betrayed him but murdered his two actual brothers. I would want to lash out in that situation, and Theon is a long ways away. Who would be the convenient target for your rage at that point? I think the enemy family whose castle you are occupying, vassals of the Lannisters who killed your old man, are as good a punching bag as any. Again, it would be a moment of temporary insanity, if you will. But I feel like doing right by her would provide a strong motive for breaking his oath to the Freys. He would have to do right by Jeyne after that, as a Stark. But marrying her after a consensual one-night stand is just boneheaded and frankly hard to wrap my head around. I think GRRM could have provided a stronger motive And for those saying that the family would never agree to a marriage after that, what better choice would they have? She's been deflowered and dishonored, and might be carrying his child anyway. And she's being offered a chance to be Queen of the North from a man who is genuinely remorseful


Catelyn freeing Jaime in her grief is a hell of a lot different than committing an act of rape. It's just a terrible idea that ruins Robb's character.

I think Robb marrying her to preserve her honor is more than enough motive to break his oath to the Freys. Robb committing Rape and feeling guilty just comes across as really sleazy shock writing, and nobody would feel bad for him after the Red Wedding.

#54 SerMixalot

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:03 PM

^Drogo raped Dany and he was a fan favorite. In fact, he and Dany formed a loving relationship afterwards The idea isn't perfect, I'll grant. That's why I said if they HAD to change it from the book. But it would be infinitely better than this fucking Along Came Polly bullshit



he did not rape her, he asked and she said yes

#55 Toccs

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:06 PM

I can't help but feel that if the King in the North broke his marriage vow with one of the key Houses in his kingdom so he could marry a fiesty Volantine wench, while fighting a war on one front and his homelands are under enemy control, that he would have lost more bannermen then just the Freys.

#56 Arrogant Bastard

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:06 PM

^Drogo raped Dany and he was a fan favorite. In fact, he and Dany formed a loving relationship afterwards The idea isn't perfect, I'll grant. That's why I said if they HAD to change it from the book. But it would be infinitely better than this fucking Along Came Polly bullshit


No, as bad as the Robb Talisa story has been, it's infinitely better than Robb deciding to rape Jeyne and then marry her.

#57 _Oberyn_

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:06 PM

If a man was being cynical a man could say that they are setting up Robb as a dumbass so the RW does not cause a drop in viewership.

#58 Ser Hippie

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:07 PM

^Drogo raped Dany and he was a fan favorite. In fact, he and Dany formed a loving relationship afterwards


Drogo is a Mongol-analogue who was popular because he did things like rip a man's tongue out, pour molten gold on Viserys and make long-winded speeches in Dothraki about raping and pillaging Westeros.

The idea isn't perfect, I'll grant. That's why I said if they HAD to change it from the book. But it would be infinitely better than this fucking Along Came Polly bullshit


No, what they did is about a million times better than turning Robb into a rapist for cheap drama.

#59 Cressit

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:08 PM

I suppose I just see the whole Robb situation differently than the OP, esp. regarding the who vow-breaking thing. (Admittedly Book-Robb frustrates me to no end when it comes to his love life and I prefer HBO-Robb in that regard.)

Of course Book-Robb deliberately broke his vow to the Freys! He didn't have to marry the daughter of a house sworn to Casterly f-ing Rock. Better risk dishonoring one girl after an indiscretion than risk an alliance that's shaky at best, with a man you know is touchy and unpredictable. Of course there was no way anyone could foresee the horror of the Red Wedding, I'm in no way blaming Robb for that, but he did have to know having all his forces in the Riverlands with the Freys as an enemy is a bad idea -- not safe for all the thousands of men you've sworn to protect.

HBO-Robb didn't break any vow. Maybe in a future episode he will marry Talisa/Jeyne, but until then no harm done. And unless she's revealed to be a Westerling she's not from a family sworn to the enemy! HBO-Robb should get extenuating circumstance cred if Book-Rob gets it. He's obviously pretty tortured feeling betrayed by both Theon AND Cat. No, not as awful as losing your 2 little brothers, but vulnerable and low all the same.

And one thing HBO made better for me is I won't have to watch Robb keep Grey Wind away because he bothered his new family -- it was bad enough to read it.

#60 Ramsay Gimp

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:10 PM

Honestly, I think my version actually makes Robb more sympathetic. The rape would be a crime of pasison, committed during the worst day of his life, in a state where he doesn't really realize what he's doing. And afterwards he'd have to be a horrible person not to offer marriage, so his oathbreaking is more understandable. The way it goes down in the books, he throws away the war over a one-night stand. The way it goes in the show, well....blegh

Anyway, I'm gonna go back to my Robb Stark the Serial Rapist fan-fiction now. Sorry I said anything