363 replies to this topic

[Morrigan]

gogorath, on 21 May 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

I hate to tell you, he deliberately broke his vows in the book as well. Unless you are insinuating that Jeyne Westerling raped him?

Of course not. By "deliberate" I mean that he planned on it without so much as a hint of guilt or a second thought. Book-Robb broke his vow because he felt honour-bound to marry Jeyne after sleeping with her in a moment of particular weakness. He feels like shit about it, admits it was a huge mistake, etc. TV-Robb doesn't give a shit, he's not vulnerable due to grief or a wound, he just says he doesn't wanna marry the Frey girl and that's it. He looks like a petulant little kid, not the Stark man who stoically accepted his fate as Lord of Winterfell.

Edited by Morrigan, 21 May 2012 - 07:21 PM.

[Morrigan]

House Snow, on 21 May 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

I don't really understand the Bran death justification. [...] I don't really see how added deaths in Bran and Rickon change her motivation for releasing Jaimie.  

Seriously? You don't get how losing your beloved brothers and/or children might make someone so mad with grief that they would succumb to irrationality? What are you, a robot?

[ARYa_Nym]

In the books Ned was already married to Catelyn so even if he had cheated he wasn't going to marry the other person.

Let's say Ned was in love with Ashara he still did his duty and married Catelyn. His brother Brandon was prepared to do the same thing although he actually slept with noble girls and Ned may not have been with a woman other than Catelyn.

I think it's more sympathetic that Robb slept with some stranger from Volantis rather than a Westerling who was sworn to the Lannisters but I don't like their scenes together because they're both boring.

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 21 May 2012 - 07:39 PM.

[SerMixalot]

more sympathetic when he literally lectured his mother about betrayal 5 minutes before banging the stranger?

[Jolene Brown]

They've just taken what I thought was a really original story which was true to the restrictions women lived with in a fairly medieval society - i.e., Robb may be able to get away with premarital sex and marry his Frey but the consequences for Jeyne are what he is actually worried about - and I think misguidedly thought they were making it more appealing to a modern audience by making Talisa more "badass" and an independent nurse who rebelled against her family.  Instead, they've just created a cliche.  It is so frustrating!

Edited by Jolene Brown, 21 May 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[Ser Giant]

He hasnt broke any vows in the television series yet, unless Robb and Talisa were married off-screen or sex in the HBO version means you are married.

More naked Oona Chaplin please, that women is oh so blessed!

[_Oberyn_]

I agree with the OP. If i had never read the books by a certain point i would think "Can you realy blame Roose, the guy was a fucking idiot". And lets not forget that the Frays are 1/5 of his army that he throws away without a thought. Even the Frays get a bit more slack at this point, you fight and die beside some king that breaks his oath for some foreigner that contributes zilch to the war efort.

[Areo Speedwagon]

I can certainly sympathize with some of what's being posted, but not that they completely ruined Robb Stark.

   Personally, I agree with Ser Hippie upthread.

   Show-Robb's development seems much more linear to me.  Arya said to Tywin "most girls are idiots."  I would have been disappointed, with how much of a confident Lord and commander they've protrayed him as so far to fall for some "idiot girl" who he slept with in a moment of weakness because she was tending to his wounds.  If we look at Talisa, aside from being very attractive, she is confident, bold, honest, and compassionate.  To me, that sounds an awful lot like Catelyn.  We've seen throughout season one and two how close Robb and Cat are.  It makes perfect sense to me that he would be attracted to someone with similar traits.  Furthermore, I think it is far more dramatic that Robb chooses to break his oath to the Freys "I don't want to marry the Frey girl" as opposed to being in a fever state and more than likely on milk of the poppy if he was injured.  I also think it's more Shakespearean, in that we sow the seeds of our own demise.  I don't see Show-Robb shying away from this decision in the face of his bannermen.  I think he will own it.  Instead of Book-Robb that seemed like "aw, shucks, I guess I gotta marry her because we had sex."

I don't think it's more cliched, I think the attraction to Talisa is rooted in very real psychological tendencies.

Edited by Areo Speedwagon, 21 May 2012 - 07:57 PM.

[mcb]

Morrigan, on 21 May 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

Of course not. By "deliberate" I mean that he planned on it without so much as a hint of guilt or a second thought.

First, I saw little planning: they talked, as they were wont to do, and suddenly started ripping off each others' clothes. As to not feeling guilty - well, a small justification is that he is not guilty of anything. Barristan himself, this walking code of honor, said that who King sleeps with is nobody's business. If a day later Robb confessed his "guilt" to Lord Frey, his answer would be: "SFW? dude, if you wanted to be the one lord in Westeros to keep faith to your wife, that's your own peculiar hobby and none of my business". He wouldn't care if Robb fell in love with another woman, he wouldn't care if Robb had sex with another woman, he wouldn't care even if Robb kept her as his mistress. As long as Walder Frey's grandson would eventually get to wear the crown of King in the North (or Lord of Winterfell, should the secession fail).

Quote

Book-Robb broke his vow because he felt honour-bound to marry Jeyne after sleeping with her in a moment of particular weakness.

Well, even if it was better rationale for coitus, it was still simply horrendous reason to break his word, and stupidity of Joey Tribbiani magnitude.

[Died a Hero]

Manhole Eunuchsbane, on 21 May 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Just giving him essentially his own POV in the series is a huge break from the book. I wonder how much they (the writers) are even consulting with Martin this season.

George has said looking back, given the t.v. series and what they've done with it, that he probably should have made Rob a POV. So, there you go.

[towerofjoy]

I wonder if they'll have Talisa get knocked up. THAT would be a reasonable catalyst for them getting married. Robb knows how hard it was for Jon and won't want the same for his son.

What I'm afraid of is Talisa is double-crossing Robb. Not saying that wouldn't set up the RW well but would be so sad and make Robb a bigger boob than he was in the books.

[birdsong66]

Robb Stark, Westerosi Honeybadger FTW!!

[Died a Hero]

Manhole Eunuchsbane, on 21 May 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Just giving him essentially his own POV in the series is a huge break from the book. I wonder how much they (the writers) are even consulting with Martin this season.

Oh, and he's one of the head producers, so I would imagine they "consult" with him quite often.

Edited by Died a Hero, 21 May 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[Keep Shelly in Athens]

Jeyne Westerling wasn't worth the sacrifice. Talisa is. They've made her a heroine. That's why it sucks. Their scenes drag the whole show down.

[dtones520]

SerMixalot, on 21 May 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

more sympathetic when he literally lectured his mother about betrayal 5 minutes before banging the stranger?

She's not a stranger at all. She's been around since episode 4, Robb was traveling with her for a good period of time. I'm sure he has gotten, or thinks he has, to know her pretty well over that time. One night stands happen a lot faster than that with 18-20 year olds.

Like it had been said 90 times already, him having sex with a girl is not betraying the Freys. Hell, he hasn't even chosen a girl who he is going to marry yet. Him breaking his marriage agreement with the Freys is the betrayal. I don't really think Walder Frey cares who Robb is banging as long as his daughter marries a king. Look at all the bastards he has squirted out.

[House Snow]

ITs funny everyone was complaining how sassy Talisa was in the beginning and that Jeyne should be sweet, and now that she has bared her soul as a sweet girl who forsakes nobility people are still complaining.

[Ramsay Gimp]

_Oberyn_, on 21 May 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

I agree with the OP. If i had never read the books by a certain point i would think "Can you realy blame Roose, the guy was a fucking idiot". And lets not forget that the Frays are 1/5 of his army that he throws away without a thought. Even the Frays get a bit more slack at this point, you fight and die beside some king that breaks his oath for some foreigner that contributes zilch to the war efort.

How is what you described any different than what happens in the books? Stevron Frey was heir to the Twins and he did die fighting for Robb. Jeyne was a "foreigner" in the sense that she is from the Westerlands, and her family doesn't contribute anything notable to the war effort

[Mad Queen]

At this point, he has just said he doesn't want to mary the Frey girl. He didn't say that he won't. Not yet.

[Morrigan]

dtones520, on 21 May 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

She's not a stranger at all. She's been around since episode 4, Robb was traveling with her for a good period of time. I'm sure he has gotten, or thinks he has, to know her pretty well over that time. One night stands happen a lot faster than that with 18-20 year olds. Like it had been said 90 times already, him having sex with a girl is not betraying the Freys. Hell, he hasn't even chosen a girl who he is going to marry yet. Him breaking his marriage agreement with the Freys is the betrayal.

Yes, but we know he'll marry her, and it appears he already decided that he would. "I don't want to marry the Frey girl".

[dtones520]

Keep Shelly in Athens, on 21 May 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Jeyne Westerling wasn't worth the sacrifice. Talisa is. They've made her a heroine. That's why it sucks. Their scenes drag the whole show down.

How exactly is Talisa worth the sacrifice? Because she is hot? Him marrying a random foreign highborn is more risky than marrying a Southron maiden. Marrying Jeyne at least gave him some men from the Crag, him marrying Talisa gives him nothing.

If the TV show followed the book, but gave Robb more air time, there would be very little time to build up the fact that Robb has fallen for this random girl. Theon "kills" Bran and Rickon late in the book, in episode 7 of the series, leaving 2 episodes (with the Blackwater being a full battle episode at KL) for Robb to fall for and marry Jeyne. They are trying to build up their romance, so him marrying her makes sense to TV viewers. Him marrying a girl because he took her maidenhead wouldn't make much sense to a tv viewer, since the importance of the maidenhead hasn't been played up at all.