363 replies to this topic

[eyeheartsansa]

I thik too many readers completely miss the human element of the series because they are so caught up with 'taking sides'  in the forum.  Robb is an easy scapegoat because he doesn't get a POV and his worst blunder takes place off-page.  we really have no idea what he was really thinking.

[eyeheartsansa]

Quote

I don't see how some people seem to claim to like the books, while applauding when some tv writers constantly second-guess and wants to 'improve' the source material.

wow.. really???

I stand 100% by my 'claim to like the books.'  Please don't turn this into some fanboy pissing contest.  The show is getting good ratings despite all the rabbling from book purists, so I am not coming from left field here.  It isn't the writer's job impress the fans with their steadfast devotion to the source material .. their job is to write a killer TV show, get good ratings and get renewed for more seasons.  In other words, make money.

I don't applaud every single decision the writers made.  I was especially disappointed that they cut Renly's peach scene.  I'd say Robb/Talisa is passable at best.. I was just saying I understand what they were doing.

I think lots of book fans would agree with me that it's fun to see them change things up.. and they do a great job of capturing the essence of the characters and 'big picture' stuff yet keeping us on our toes at the same time.

As for who here on the forum could do a better job writing ... unless you have years of experience writing for premium TV and the television industry in general, I'd say, no, you couldn't.  Writing for TV is an incredibly complicated process.  There are too many factors beyond anyone's control to be able to produce exactly what you want to have on screen.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 26 May 2012 - 05:07 PM.

[RSasoiaf]

Gannicus, on 26 May 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

The point is that being vulnerable is not usually a cause or reason to have sex/fall for someone, at least for most men.  But Cat uses this to rationalize why Robb would think with his pecker in the book.

You have no idea what you are talking about!!!! I hope you never will.

But I tell you what happens: technically when you are vulnerable your hormones are not. You are still a man or women and if you do have hormones you still feel atraction towards the other sex. Now the thing that tends to disconect when you are vulnerable is the so called voice of reason and part of your usual thinking process. You are more sensitive, the shields your personality usually has tend to go down a bit when you feel vulnerable...and stuff like that. Believe it or not, this happens with everyone.

Now usually you dont simply get a beautiful girl with a crush on you falling on your lap at the right moment. Because if you are some usual guy, beautiful girls are not really falling on your lap that easy. But believe me, if they do fall on your lap on a time you feel vulnerable.....man ohhh man i would like to see you not thinking on sex

And by the way, girls usually feel atracted to you when you are wonded if you happen to display a lot of strength and character. They love to see a guy that can take being helpless in a humble way while still doing is best to get back and not complaining about it being hard. Women love that kind of strength and they can really conect on that only.

[wolverine]

What I think is most humorous about all this character judging, comparing, etc. is how so many on here sound like they would be the most cold, calculated, logical, rational people in the world if only they were in the same positions.

Throughout the history of every world their have been a lot of decisions made based on emotion, honor, or factors other than rationality and logic.  It doesn't make every character making those decisions a horrible person.  Sometimes, IMO, it makes them a better one.  It also does not ruin the character of a 16 year old boy if he falls in love with someone he thinks is honorable, beautiful, and shares his values.  The fact that he acts on this, despite his honor, makes him more human, and less machine like a lot of posters on here think he should be.

[Gannicus]

wolverine, on 27 May 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

What I think is most humorous about all this character judging, comparing, etc. is how so many on here sound like they would be the most cold, calculated, logical, rational people in the world if only they were in the same positions.

Throughout the history of every world their have been a lot of decisions made based on emotion, honor, or factors other than rationality and logic.  It doesn't make every character making those decisions a horrible person.  Sometimes, IMO, it makes them a better one.  It also does not ruin the character of a 16 year old boy if he falls in love with someone he thinks is honorable, beautiful, and shares his values.  The fact that he acts on this, despite his honor, makes him more human, and less machine like a lot of posters on here think he should be.

Completely agree

[Gannicus]

RSasoiaf, on 26 May 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

You have no idea what you are talking about!!!! I hope you never will.

But I tell you what happens: technically when you are vulnerable your hormones are not. You are still a man or women and if you do have hormones you still feel atraction towards the other sex. Now the thing that tends to disconect when you are vulnerable is the so called voice of reason and part of your usual thinking process. You are more sensitive, the shields your personality usually has tend to go down a bit when you feel vulnerable...and stuff like that. Believe it or not, this happens with everyone.

Oh boy

I don't intend to come across as arrogant or assholic, and I am by no means an expert.  But most of us have some experience in the area of love and experienced incredible hurt.  I just don't attribute or relate the realtionships I've had to the great losses in my life.  And from what I've observed neither have my male friends. My girlfriends on the other hand, well...lets just move on.

I realize hormones come into play.  But being blunt the only time a 16 year old boy isn't thinking about women/sex is when his hormones are out of wack. This is why I'm inclined to believe Robb even in the book was drawn to Jeyne/Talissa before he was wounded and found out about his brothers.

RSasoiaf, on 26 May 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

Now usually you dont simply get a beautiful girl with a crush on you falling on your lap at the right moment. Because if you are some usual guy, beautiful girls are not really falling on your lap that easy. But believe me, if they do fall on your lap on a time you feel vulnerable.....man ohhh man i would like to see you not thinking on sex

Haha I'm not gonna argue that. But vulnerability aside when a beautiful girl falls in your lap and you're feeling confident, you also tend to think of sex..

RSasoiaf, on 26 May 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

And by the way, girls usually feel atracted to you when you are wonded if you happen to display a lot of strength and character. They love to see a guy that can take being helpless in a humble way while still doing is best to get back and not complaining about it being hard. Women love that kind of strength and they can really conect on that only.

I would assume you're a women, so I'm not going to argue with you about what women are attracted to.  But I also see a lot of women who are attracted to handsome successful men which Robb is. I bet the King of the North would do OK for himself, and might even have a say in who is tending to his wounds.

This has gone in a direction that I didn't intend, but the long and short of my position is I always believed Robb would have slept with Jeyne/Talissa if life was all peaches. Unlike Cat, I never tried to justify or sugarcoat why Robb was sleeping with a pretty girl.

[qixoticneurotic]

the young wolf is a stupid horny lil puppy. theyve destroyed his motivation and any sympathy i had for his character.  hes double crossed the freys and wants to pass the crossing twice. heh.

[The Bloody Boar]

I don't think Robb's ruined, but the contrasting attitudes of so many fans to what book-Robb did and what TV-Robb did is very striking!

Book-Robb: marries Jeyne out of a desire to do right by her. Fans: Boo! Robb, you suck!

TV-Robb: marries the Volantis princess cos she's so fine. Fans: Go, Robb! Tap that fine ass!

What a comment on our society!

[Volantis]

They've ruined Robb, jon and Catelyn and made Tyrion look like a sissie in some scenes

[Volantis]

He is about 20 in the books

[ShowOverBooks]

Sorry for being late into this discussion. I just found this site a couple of days ago
I am going to address several points brought up in this thread.
Here comes my wall of text:


Karstark was talking to Catelyn when he mentioned The Father. That is her religion.

Robb is in the middle of the war. He married Talisa as soon as possible, in case he died (MAJOR irony there).

Talisa is FAR more believable as a temptation to break his oath than Jeyne was. She impressed him (and me) as a woman who would make a fine queen, not just a hotty.

Anything that happened in the books doesn't matter. GRRM sold the story and the characters to the producers to do as they pleased. It should be clear now, that they can and might change anything.

Talisa has forsaken her past - she left Essos because it is rife with slavery. She made up her mind to never live in a slave city again. It is not unreasonable to assume changed her faith as well.

Catelyn validated the breaking of oathes when she BETRAYED ROBB by releasing Jaime. Love was her excuse. It is also his.

Joffery doesn't give a damn about Margery or Sansa. He's gay or neuter. Look how he treated his nameday gifts. The little play he and the council put on was just a show.

Book Robb didn't marry Jeyne out of honour. His honour required that he keep his oath to the Freys. Frankly, GRRM's version is much more clumsy and unbelievable than the show's version. Talisa would likely make a fine queen.

You can't say something in the TV shows is wrong, just because it does not match up with something in the books. Two different worlds.

Do you people who say Robb was being petulant with Catelyn understand that he would have been within his rights to have her executed for what she did? She freed a major enemy during war. Her betrayal might well have driven him into Talisa's arms. He needed someone he could trust, and Catelyn had proven that was not her, anymore.

Edited by ShowOverBooks, 08 November 2012 - 06:15 PM.

[Beowulf777]

Morrigan, on 21 May 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

I didn't have a problem with them showing his romance with Jeyne on-screen rather than off. But that isn't what they've done, now is it. They made up a totally different story instead, and it unfortunately, it just. plain. sucks even when ignoring the books. Not only that, but I would go so far as to say that it goes completely against Robb's character.

Let's summarize here. Book-Robb is a boy of 15 (full of raging hormones); he took an injury at the Crag; he heard of his brothers's deaths and is grieving. During all that he is "comforted" by a woman in a moment of understandable weakness. After that happens, he feels honour-bound to marry her. Book-Robb is the son of Ned Stark, and just like Ned, he takes oaths and hononour seriously. He would have never deliberately broken his vow to the Freys like that, and when it does happen, he feels stupid and terrible and tries his hardest to make amends.

Disagree. In both book and TV show, Robb falls in love, which is natural for a young guy, and also natural for someone at war who doesn't know whether he'll be alive or dead the next day. In that sense, the Show is being true to the Books. OTOH, they do change Book Robb's commitment to honour, even making him say he's not his father. That's ok with me, because this is an adaptation, and if a change makes sense then they can and should go ahead with it. They've built up a very clear portrait of Robb in the series (or the actor playing him has) and if this particular scene isn't consistent with Book Robb, it's certainly not inconsistent with the portrayal of TV Robb so far.

[FacelessFanDragon]

Greeting All,
I do not think the show has ruined Robb. Both TV and book Robb broke a vow to an ally. As some have pointed out the honorable thing to do would have been marry a Frey girl(as agreed upon) and either keepJeyne/Talisa on the side or arrange a good match for her. He is a fool for thinking a self-centered man like Lord Frey would EVER forgiven such a blatant slight to his honor.
That being said the RW was still a great suprise, but understandable. (From a Frey POV) It made me sad none the less.

[The Lady Raven]

Morrigan, on 21 May 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

I didn't have a problem with them showing his romance with Jeyne on-screen rather than off. But that isn't what they've done, now is it. They made up a totally different story instead, and it unfortunately, it just. plain. sucks even when ignoring the books. Not only that, but I would go so far as to say that it goes completely against Robb's character.

Let's summarize here. Book-Robb is a boy of 15 (full of raging hormones); he took an injury at the Crag; he heard of his brothers's deaths and is grieving. During all that he is "comforted" by a woman in a moment of understandable weakness. After that happens, he feels honour-bound to marry her. Book-Robb is the son of Ned Stark, and just like Ned, he takes oaths and hononour seriously. He would have never deliberately broken his vow to the Freys like that, and when it does happen, he feels stupid and terrible and tries his hardest to make amends.

TV-Robb: is a man grown (I assume he's supposed to be 18-20?); he is not injured; he has not learned of Bran and Rickon's deaths and is not grieving. He's not in any sort of particular trouble. He even had his mother around to remind him of his duty and his oath to the Freys. Yet he's palling around with some sexy wench and clearly states he doesn't want to marry the Frey girl. He deliberately breaks his vow and doesn't even have second thoughts about it.

What made Robb sympathetic was because he was so much like Ned, and took his oath and his honour so seriously, and he was young and naive, and he actually married Jeyne because of his Ned-like honour as a Stark. There is none, and absolutely none of that in his story with Talissa. Not only is the story contrary to the spirit of the novel, but even judged by its own merit as TV, it's bad. It's a clichéd Hollywood romance with little believability to it.  And it takes away a lot of the tragedy of the Red Wedding since Robb pretty much has it coming.  Personally the Red Wedding made me upset because of Catelyn's suffering (losing her "last" son) and death more than Robb's death, but by giving more attention to Robb, the TV series could have changed that. Well, so much for that...

Totally agree.

[Caryn Stark]

The Lady Raven, on 10 May 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

Totally agree.

As do I.

[Castellan]

mcb, on 21 May 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

What? No he didn't. In this quasi-medieval setting no one would care if he slept with other woman before the wedding. Few people would care if he slept with another woman after the wedding. He'll break his vow when he marries other woman. Which, in the book, was monumental, suicidal stupidity, and TV Robb won't beat that unless he weds a literal horse.

I am a bit lost here. Yes, he broke his vow to the Freys only when he married Jeyne, and the Freys wouldn't care if he dishonoured a Westerling girl.

However, its not true nobody cared what he did. Robb slept with a high born maid in her own house, that is a different story than sleeping with a commoner. Its not the sleeping with someone which is bad, its stealing her virginity, which equals her honour and her marriageability. According to honour he should marry her, although few men probably followed that principle if they could avoid it. Then again most would be canny enough to avoid such situations.

Nevertheless, looking like a pig would be better than having all your supporters massacred by Freys!

[pytri993]

Well, it seems to me that the supposed "breach" of Jeyne's honor is an old-fashioned notion at best. Half of Westeros' lords bedded women well before they were married, and none felt the need to marry their bedwarmers. Robb could easily have pretended that his roll in the hay with Jeyne never happened, and he would probably have avoided all that mess

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

pytri993, on 14 May 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

Well, it seems to me that the supposed "breach" of Jeyne's honor is an old-fashioned notion at best. Half of Westeros' lords bedded women well before they were married, and none felt the need to marry their bedwarmers. Robb could easily have pretended that his roll in the hay with Jeyne never happened, and he would probably have avoided all that mess

That's not the kind of boy Ned Stark raised. Robb nobly chose Jeyne's honor over his own.

[Teardrops]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on 15 May 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

That's not the kind of boy Ned Stark raised. Robb nobly chose Jeyne's honor over his own.

Ned would have married the Frey girl. He would never  put a girl's honour, that he could protect in other ways, above the men who fought and died for him, his kingdom, his cause, his duty. There is nothing 'noble' in what Robb did. The Young Wolf cared about Jeyne's honor so much because she took his heart.

Edited by Teardrops, 18 May 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

It's all hindsight that somehow marrying Jeyne would cost him the war.  Robb believed he could do both.