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[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 5

theon stannis asha

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#41 bede

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 06:49 PM

I think that throughout his story in ADWD Theon slowly goes from being broken Reek back to Theon. He's not quite there yet but I think in say 5 years he could be back to normal (if he survives that long). And whether or not Theon is actually a eunuch is something I think GRRM was puposely vague about.


IIRC, it never explicitly states if Theon was "cut". For all we know, he could still be intact down there, just impotent due to the severe torture/malnutrition he was subjected to at the Dreadfort.

#42 Jolene Brown

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 09:11 PM

I am really hoping Theon was not castrated, but that line where he thinks about how Ramsay cuts off fingers, toes, and "that other thing," and then later, when Ramsay asks him to "prepare" Jeyne, and he says, "but I have no..." is all pretty damning evidence. Plus, it fits GRRM's pattern - Jaime loses his sword hand, Cercei is shamed through a type of sexual humiliation, and Theon has one of the only things he feels confident about - sexuality - taken away from him, as well as the other thing - his archery ability - made more difficult.

#43 bede

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 08:53 AM

Oh yeah, I agree the circumstanstial evidence is pretty damning as well. Especially upon perusing the syntax used in the text, as well as Theon's musings on Ramsay's penchant for mutilation. I suppose the "I have no..." could possibly be filled in the blank with the word "use..." but it is more likely that Ramsay marked him down there as well because it fits with the character's trope.

#44 VaramyrSixchins

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 06:21 PM

That letter sounds too much like Ramsay to have been written by anyone but Ramsay. It may be full of lies, but Ramsay wrote it. I can't see any of the suggested suspects: Mance, Theon, Roose (?), someone on Stannis's behalf, getting the tone that right, even Theon.


There's a bajillion threads on it, but the long and short of it is, in all other examples of Ramsay letters, we've had blood-as-ink, the specific adjective "spiky" hand, and in two cases, a flayed piece of skin.
None of that is present in the pink wax letter. The "spiky hand" may not be such a big deal if Jon had not specifically noted it in the previous letter he got from Ramsay. It's extremely out of character for Ramsay to write such a goading letter from a supposed position of power and not include an ear, finger, skin, etc., some type of grisly trophy cut from Stannis's head. This points to someone other than Ramsay as author.

In my mind the following is most plausible: Bolton's capture Mance and/or spearwives while the Freys and Manderlys are gone. I agree with the prevelent theories about Stannis's trickery and Manderly's complicity. The returning Northmen tell the Boltons all the info in the letter about Stannis's defeat and hand him Lightbringer. All well and good, says Boltons, but where's Arya?

"Arya" was the lynchpin in the Bolton's claim. When she leaves, it's def-con 5 panic time in Boltonland, because it's spelled out for us in a bajillion ways that the Boltons can't command the North's loyalty w/o the Stark marriage. For the Boltons, the only thing worse than Arya's absence is if she runs to Jon Snow, as he can call B.S. on the ruse with all credibility.

Snow, therefore, has to be silenced. Roose's analysis is that Snow is a man who didn't act when his father and brothers were all betrayed and murdered, his sister married a Lannister, and his other sister married the most sadistic guy in the North. Roose's thinking goes, if Snow is informed that his ally Stannis is dead and he's alone in the North, that should subdue him. If it doesn't, tell him that we know about Mance, and if he spills the beans about Arya, we'll spill the beans about Mance, and let the North decide who they hate less. I'll write the letter as Ramsay, to put a little more fear in this weak-kneed, family tragedy ignoring bastard.

So, the letter was simply a blackmail attempt. The last desperate act of guys that are about to die horribly. No more, no less.

#45 Jolene Brown

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 08:04 PM

I like the idea that they are trying to lure Jon south so they can kill him, before fake Arya has a chance to reach him. i don't think that precludes the letter having been written by Ramsay though. He is lying about defeating Stannis, so he can't send his skin. It's written in a hurry and panic, because he's so freaked/angry about fake Arya being gone, so he doesn't take the time to pull his usual piece of skin, blood-ink shenanigans. The other letters were written when he had triumphed and he had time/the desire to gloat. This is written after "Arya" escapes and as a desperation measure, so that is why there are the differences. The spiky hand thing is interesting, but GRRM may just have been tired of making the same point/description. I personally think this letter was written right after Theon/Jeyne escaped, without any battle having taken place between anyone and Stannis's camp yet at all.

#46 The Great Unwashed

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 02:55 PM

IIRC, it never explicitly states if Theon was "cut". For all we know, he could still be intact down there, just impotent due to the severe torture/malnutrition he was subjected to at the Dreadfort.


To my mind, the definitive statement(s) on the issue are the several times it is remarked upon that Theon smells like urine. Now, it could be because he sleeps with Ramsey's bitches, but it is even remarked upon after Theon is cleaned up for Jeyne's wedding. I honestly couldn't tell you how difficult it would be for a man to control his bladder without a cock, but I can imagine it wouldn't help matters. In addition, that recalls to mind the fact that Lord Varys is always perfumed...he could be trying to cover up the smell of urine.

#47 A Bong of Ice and Fire

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 03:31 PM

To my mind, the definitive statement(s) on the issue are the several times it is remarked upon that Theon smells like urine. Now, it could be because he sleeps with Ramsey's bitches, but it is even remarked upon after Theon is cleaned up for Jeyne's wedding. I honestly couldn't tell you how difficult it would be for a man to control his bladder without a cock, but I can imagine it wouldn't help matters. In addition, that recalls to mind the fact that Lord Varys is always perfumed...he could be trying to cover up the smell of urine.


Varys is castrated, which means he lost his balls. That's what a eunuch is. As far as I know he still has his cock, so he shouldn't be pissing himself. At least I recall no hints that he doesn't.

Theon must have had his cock flayed by Ramsay. Flaying is Ramsay's thing, so this makes more sense to me than Ramsay just castrating Theon. We know that flaying fingers makes the victim beg for the finger to be cut off. Imagine the pain of a flayed cock. It was probably at least partially torn or cut off after flaying.

#48 aryagonnakill

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 04:19 PM

Varys is castrated, which means he lost his balls. That's what a eunuch is. As far as I know he still has his cock, so he shouldn't be pissing himself. At least I recall no hints that he doesn't.

Theon must have had his cock flayed by Ramsay. Flaying is Ramsay's thing, so this makes more sense to me than Ramsay just castrating Theon. We know that flaying fingers makes the victim beg for the finger to be cut off. Imagine the pain of a flayed cock. It was probably at least partially torn or cut off after flaying.


we are actually told in meeren that the unsullied have their cocks cut off too. I definetly agree that theon got his manhood flayed tho. When Ramsey tells him to pleasure jeyne he says but i have no... when he is thinking to himself about all his lost fingers he also mentions and that other thing...

#49 The Great Unwashed

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 04:49 PM

we are actually told in meeren that the unsullied have their cocks cut off too. I definetly agree that theon got his manhood flayed tho. When Ramsey tells him to pleasure jeyne he says but i have no... when he is thinking to himself about all his lost fingers he also mentions and that other thing...


This...plus Varys says at one point that he was cut "root and stem". To my mind, that says that he got the Unsullied treatment.

#50 Ser Scott

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 04:56 PM

Hey everyone

Just musing about ASOIAF on my way to work - as we all do - and was giving some thought to the various potential authors of the letter Jon received.

I've seen some good arguments that it is a ruse from Stannis, an act of desperation by Ramsay, or a plea for help from a Mance on the run.

Just one factor though throws doubt into my mind that it would be Mance - why would he not refer to Theon Turncloak by his name, and instead leave him as Reek? Surely that'd be the tipping point in terms of trying to persuade Jon that there's merit in leaving his post to deal with the Boltons. Jon would have the chance to deal with a handful of traitors to House Stark and the North with one blow....

After taking him captive, Stannis obviously would have found out the Reek/Theon identity and role...

I guess I'm back to thinking that it was most likely a rabid Ramsay who wrote the letter. Perhaps he has sadly managed to capture Mance and is extracted that info before hopefully tearing off with a force which Stannis will defeat.

#51 The Red Hand

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 01:16 AM

Varys is castrated, which means he lost his balls. That's what a eunuch is. As far as I know he still has his c'ock, so he shouldn't be pissing himself. At least I recall no hints that he doesn't.

Theon must have had his cock flayed by Ramsay. Flaying is Ramsay's thing, so this makes more sense to me than Ramsay just castrating Theon. We know that flaying fingers makes the victim beg for the finger to be cut off. Imagine the pain of a flayed cock. It was probably at least partially torn or cut off after flaying.

I hope your right, I mean yeah Theon did some bad things but I don't think he deserved to be de-cocked. I think GRRM left it so vague so that he could keep the possibility of Theon having a kid alive.

Edited by The Red Hand, 23 June 2012 - 11:48 PM.


#52 winterstood

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 01:45 AM

If this plays out like I think it will, we'll get to see Stannis in full tactical mode.

Here's how I see it playing out (and I'm sorry, but I didn't read through all 1600+ posts so apologies if I plagarize someone).

Stannis knows that approximately half of Bolton's force is on their way to him, with the other half holed up in Winterfell. He's uncovered Karstark's betrayal and has the two ravens that are trained to fly to Winterfell. He smashes the Freys, most likely with the help of Manderley's forces, and sends word by raven of victory and conspires with Manderley for Manderley to return with "proof" of Stannis' death, which perhaps explains the "7 days of battle" in the letter. In addition to proof, Manderly also returns with word that Arya Stark and Reek had been sent on to the Wall for protection. This is when Ramsay sends the letter to Castle Black. Most likely Manderley's forces will have been "decimated" (while in reality most of them joined Stannis' forces) so the Boltons know they will have to march on the Wall to get back Arya/Jeyne, since she's their only legitimate claim to Winterfell and there is no chance the Lord Commander will return her to them.

Meanwhile, Stannis' and Manderley's forces march up the Kingsroad to Winterfell and take the now lightly guarded castle, trapping Bolton's forces between Winterfell and the Wall.

I think the key piece of evidence is that Ramsay asks for Reek. If Stannis truly had been defeated, then Ramsay would have had Theon, since Stannis certainly wasn't going to release him, or at the least, Ramsay would have found out that Theon had been executed. The Boltons and Freys are about to receive their comeuppance.


I like this - and Stannis is a tactician.

#53 VaramyrSixchins

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 07:47 AM

I like the idea that they are trying to lure Jon south so they can kill him, before fake Arya has a chance to reach him. i don't think that precludes the letter having been written by Ramsay though. He is lying about defeating Stannis, so he can't send his skin. It's written in a hurry and panic, because he's so freaked/angry about fake Arya being gone, so he doesn't take the time to pull his usual piece of skin, blood-ink shenanigans. The other letters were written when he had triumphed and he had time/the desire to gloat. This is written after "Arya" escapes and as a desperation measure, so that is why there are the differences. The spiky hand thing is interesting, but GRRM may just have been tired of making the same point/description. I personally think this letter was written right after Theon/Jeyne escaped, without any battle having taken place between anyone and Stannis's camp yet at all.


I don't think he was trying to lure Jon south at all. They wanted to intimidate/blackmail Jon into keeping silent on "Arya", by threatening to tell the North about Mance. Which didn't work at all.

Jon: "Yeah, Ramsay, we wouldn't want you telling the North I'm cool with wildlings!" Whispers to wildling army he's recruited "Anybody asks, you guys are my cousins from out of town, NOT WILDLINGS!"

#54 Black Wolf Smith

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 05:59 PM

First time these threads. I only started at the begin of this one, because I read 20 something pages before and it just goes round and round. I did not see what I think on the 3 pages here, but I know someone has at most it.

Stannis does not know that Manderley's has an agreement with Davos. Doesn't he think they kill him instead? i do think the Manderley's being behind the Frey's attach them. They have just cut Lord Manderley's throat, which is why they where sent out different gates. I also think that too much info in the letter that Stannis did not have so I don't think it is him.

I can only see it coming from Ramsey. There are only 2 ways I see it happening, in both Ramsey got hold one of the girls and got the info from her.

1. Ramsey pissed off, after fighting with his father, takes his boys and is chasing after "Arya" Rosse thinking that Stannis is the bigger problem, and must be taking care of 1st. Ramsey doing what he does, thinks his toy is all that matters. He grabbed a bird while sneaking out.

2. Is that the Manderley's men have gotten with stannis men and they got in WF gate. Whether by Tojan horse or if one of Lord Manderley's let them in, and Ramsey and a few other got out, with a bird.

3.Is of course that did in fact beat Stannis.

Edited by Black Wolf Smith, 24 June 2012 - 06:03 PM.


#55 woweezowee

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 01:30 PM

Craziest of crazy theories: the author of the letter is in fact Varys, in another devious attempt to spread chaos and bring about the collapse of the realm. Using his network of spies he gathers information on the situation at the wall and at Winterfell, and decides to give Jon that nudge over the edge...

Wildly improbable, of course, but I just wanted to put it in writing so that, if it somehow turns out to be true, you all proclaim me the one true god /cool4.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cool4:' />

Edited by woweezowee, 27 June 2012 - 01:31 PM.


#56 Urien the Ragged

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 09:32 PM

Varys is castrated, which means he lost his balls. That's what a eunuch is. As far as I know he still has his cock, so he shouldn't be pissing himself. At least I recall no hints that he doesn't.

Theon must have had his cock flayed by Ramsay. Flaying is Ramsay's thing, so this makes more sense to me than Ramsay just castrating Theon. We know that flaying fingers makes the victim beg for the finger to be cut off. Imagine the pain of a flayed cock. It was probably at least partially torn or cut off after flaying.


castration can indeed mean removal of all parts. i believe it has at least been strongly implied that varys has no parts left.

#57 Lady of Long Lake

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:07 PM

we are actually told in meeren that the unsullied have their cocks cut off too. I definetly agree that theon got his manhood flayed tho. When Ramsey tells him to pleasure jeyne he says but i have no... when he is thinking to himself about all his lost fingers he also mentions and that other thing...


Wouldn't it be kinda funny if what happened to Theon in that world is HORRIFYING TORTURE but in our modern world, it is considered a normal procedure that is done to newborn boys? I'm referring to circumcision. What if George is being ironic and all that Theon lost was a little foreskin? And he's probably been laughing at us that have been worrying for years about poor Theon's mutilated weewee.

#58 bemused

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 12:42 AM

/worried.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':worried:' /> /drunk.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':drunk:' /> /laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':laugh:' />

#59 Jolene Brown

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 12:47 AM

I really really hope you are right, but I doubt it. That "I have no..." during the wedding night scene seemed pretty damning to me.

#60 King Bolton 1990

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 04:24 AM

As far as Theon goes I wouldn't feel that bad if he was castrated mainly because of all the horrible things he did in ACOK. I also think that maybe that was something put into his head by Ramsey maybe while Theon was a guest at the Dreadfort as he was being tortured Ramsey would continual tell him that Reek was not a man. So maybe he wasn't cut but Ramsey gave him the worlds longest softy threw mental and physical torture.



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