344 replies to this topic

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

jon could of had winterfell if he wanted it. stannis offered winterfell. The godswood prevented that though. jon refused to be lord commander of nw.  throwing little finger into that is a stetch. The letter is obviously ramsay's rage and confusion from a faux karstark letter and from catching mance and the spearwives. Jon says there is truth here. Unless mance rayder sent it for mel. The only other option I see is ramsay.

Edited by liam stark, 19 September 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

And theon was definitely castrated. He says he is a eunuch and that he took that away from him but he didn't need it anyway. Obvously he skinned theon's dick. Along with some fingers ;P

[angry lettuce]

rmholt, on 10 July 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

There is something about the Weirwood on the island that only Asha knows about.

I also agree with this.  I first thought of that from this quote though:
"You have no high ground here, no walls to hide beyond, no natural defences."
"Yet." (says Stannis)
"Yet," both ravens screamed in unison. Then one quorked and the other muttered, "Tree, tree, tree."
How does the word tree come in a discussion about defences? It was not a word anyone had mentioned before (in the chapter) that they could have mimicked.  There is a chance that they heard it from maester Tybald (was he discussing about the tree in front of them? A trap? I dont think so).  The crow is almost saying that the tree will be their defence.
Also I do not think that Asha would have asked for such a death for Theon.  She could have asked that he is given to the Drowned God (there's a lake right?).  I think she might have gotten a feeling, or a dream or even the "rustling of the leaves" made her propose to Stannis to take Theon there.

Edit: and I do think Bran/BR is behind it.

Edited by angry lettuce, 10 September 2012 - 10:06 AM.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

liam stark, on 08 September 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

And theon was definitely castrated. He says he is a eunuch and that he took that away from him but he didn't need it anyway. Obvously he skinned theon's dick. Along with some fingers ;P

Who is "he" and where does he say that explicity? There are vague references made but I don't think its fully stated and I think GRRM did that on purpose. Perhaps leading us on....

Either way though Theon is a wreck of a man.  With the missing toes/fingers and all.  I feel bad for him. But at the same time he deserves/deserved every single bit of it.

[Budj]

How the tree can be a Defense - Jon was coming - albeit to WF and not Stannis, but got stabbed.  King's blood could raise him - sacrifice Theon to the trees.  The maester sent a map via Raven to WF....BR/Bran seem to warg those ravens pretty easily.  They bring the map to the wall and Jon knows where to go.  He pulls a "Renly's ghost" and smashes the Frey forces.  Manderly's forces turn cloak on Bolton.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

ThePrinceOfSunspear, on 10 September 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

Who is "he" and where does he say that explicity? There are vague references made but I don't think its fully stated and I think GRRM did that on purpose. Perhaps leading us on....

Either way though Theon is a wreck of a man.  With the missing toes/fingers and all.  I feel bad for him. But at the same time he deserves/deserved every single bit of it.

He says he doesn't want "them" to see. Inrefrence to his genetails. Seemed typical of ramasay to make him less than a man a eunuch was created to serve goes back thousands of years like in china...anyways THEON said he didn't need that anyway probably because he sees himself as reek and has no reason to creat heirs. But if he has his parts. Theon that is they kept them so he could make kids still.  But ramasy wants to dominate him to take away his manhood is quite a punishment fo the crimes he did, which in no way compares to the bastard himself....but its like people just want his character to be beddable...and HE is theon..wondering who he is that's just patronizing.........since the first sentence stated it clearly. Oh well if he does or doesn't your correct he that  is quite a wreck.  In my opinion he will most likely die. Soon enough. Unless bran saves him. Stannis is all about justice we know that. Or the bastard. He might get his hands on "his" reek. I'd like to see theon in the watch though.

Edited by liam stark, 10 September 2012 - 11:49 PM.

[gingerpunk]

The Red Hand, on 19 June 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

I hope your right, I mean yeah Theon did some bad things but I don't think he deserved to be de-cocked. I think GRRM left it so vague so that he could keep the possibility of Theon having a kid alive.

Theon has probably fathered a few bastards already so no worries there.

[The Great Unwashed]

gingerpunk, on 13 September 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Theon has probably fathered a few bastards already so no worries there.

IIRC, it was implied that Theon fathered a bastard on the miller's wife, which means that he killed his own bastard son when he killed the two boys to pass for Bran and Rickon.

[3CityApache]

angry lettuce, on 10 September 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

She could have asked that he is given to the Drowned God (there's a lake right?).

I don't think it would suffice. The Drowned God is definitely a sea god, with salted water and all, not just "any kind of water" god.

[Carey Snow]

Kings In The North, on 04 June 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

I like this. I didn't read through all 50,000 old posts either, but I haven't seen anyone else post the the part about drawing Bolton out of the Winterfell before (as opposed to tricking him into letting them inside Winterfell). They could be drawing him out to retake the castle, or even to ambush his men as they travel to the wall. Also, I agree with that part about demanding Theon back. If the Bolton's had in fact won the battle, Ramsey would either know what happened to Theon (if he's killed at the Godswood), or know that he was one of the captives (of course it is possible Theon escaped in the chaos).

One thing: what if Theon admits that he didn't kill the Stark boys right before he's beheaded, and Stannis allows him to take the black, and that's why Ramsey thinks he's at the Wall? I would really hate it if that were the case, but it seems possible.

I can't wait to see where this goes though. GRRM has set up SO many possibilities.

If manderly parlys with Stannis before Theon is executed, he could tell Stannis that Rickon is alive. Thus absolving Theon of those crimes... Though the Miller's boys will always haunt him as they should.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

3CityApache, on 19 September 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

I don't think it would suffice. The Drowned God is definitely a sea god, with salted water and all, not just "any kind of water" god.

I wouldn't say that cause Asha even says all water leads to the sea. And when theon executed men at winterfell in the name of the drowned god he drowned them in a bucket of water. Only at torrhen's square did he take them to the sea.

[Dragonfan]

The Great Unwashed, on 14 September 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

IIRC, it was implied that Theon fathered a bastard on the miller's wife, which means that he killed his own bastard son when he killed the two boys to pass for Bran and Rickon.

The two orphan boys weren't the miller's wife's kids.

[MtnLion]

Dragonfan, on 22 September 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

The two orphan boys weren't the miller's wife's kids.

Heh, you are mixing screenplay and canon.  In the screenplay Bran gives two orphan boys to the miller before Theon takes Winterfell.  The same miller is where Theon finds the two boys, but where is Ramsay in the screenplay?  It was Ramsay's idea in canon, and the boys were born of the miller's wife.

[aryagonnakill]

MtnLion, on 22 September 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Heh, you are mixing screenplay and canon.  In the screenplay Bran gives two orphan boys to the miller before Theon takes Winterfell.  The same miller is where Theon finds the two boys, but where is Ramsay in the screenplay?  It was Ramsay's idea in canon, and the boys were born of the miller's wife.

very good catch. i was trying to figure out where his confusion came from. for the record i've confused posts on here for stuff in the book, so it happens.

[Loras]

My impression of the incident with Asha suggesting that Stannis beheads Theon is that she doesn't want him to suffer being burnt.

It is VERY clear in her final 'Dance' chapter that she doesn't wish burning on anyone and that she would provoke someone into killing her before she allowed herself to be burnt alive.  I don't think she has any motive other than wanting Theon to have a quick death.

If there was any other motive then her final chapter in 'Dance' wouldn't make any sense at all.  Especially when you consider that this chapter was meant to be included in 'Dance'!

[Northman_96]

Tbh i think stannis will kill theon (not sure in what manner) in order to maintain the loyalts of the northern lords who he needs in order to have any chane of claiming the iron throne. I think stannis will force the bolton force onto/across the lake. This will be hi 'high ground' as the lake will crack unde the weight decimating the freys and boltons. Manderlys troops will have taken the rear gaurd and side with stanis killing any rmaining freys/boltons. The letter sent to Jon is most likely fake by ramsey since any proper letter from the boltons as mentioned earlier woud be written by roose.

[Lightstar]

What does Theon mean here: "I know a quicker way."  Stannis drew his dagger.  For an instant Theon thought that he meant to stab the banker.  You will never get a drop of blood from that one, my lord, he might have told him.  The king laid the blade of the knife against the ball of his left thumb, and slashed.  "There.  I will sign in mine own blood.  That ought to make your masters happy."

"You will never get a drop of blood from that one, my lord" - Didn't they just meet?

Interesting...

[Lebronn Jaime]

He means the banker is completely unemotional. It's a reference to the humor theory in which blood carries the passions for life. Theon is saying that the banker is so calm that Stannis likely wouldn't even get a reaction from him were he to stab him.

[Maester Jamf]

Hi all,
I've spent the summer devouring the Ice & Fire series and have come here as a way to cope with coming to the end of DWD and the sample chapters.  I've seen most of the posts here and spent some time rereading passages and this sample chapter to make sense of "Ramsay's" letter.  I like a lot of the explanations, but after seeing this new chapter I can only come to the conclusion that Ramsay wrote the letter.  Here's my explanation.

There are a number of people with access to the information involved in the letter: Ramsay, Roose, Mance, Theon, Asha, Stannis, Melisandre, and Jon

All these people have direct access to the knowledge of Mance's existence at Winterfell, Stannis' magic sword, the escape of Reek and Arya, and the existence of the Queen and company at the wall.  I assume Theon and thereby Asha and Stannis know of Mance from the line, "Then he had to say who Abel was..."

There are also some others that might have knowledge enough to write it depending on things not yet known: Other NW members, Queen Selyse, Patchface?

All these I think are possible choices, but Ramsay is the only one that makes sense without completely breaking rationale or character.  First, it says it's from Ramsay and sounds a lot like him.  It sounds so much like him that if someone else wrote it they would have to have some serious FBI-level profiling skills (outside of Theon perhaps).  Second, it is a perfectly reasonable response from Ramsay.  He already sees Jon Snow as a threat to his claim on Winterfell.  Once he uncovers Jon's plot to steal his bride he lashes out and threatens him.  However, he also uses those threats as leverage against both Jon and Stannis by asking for the Queen and co as hostages.  If Jon gives them up then Stannis loses, if Jon doesn't then the NW is no longer staying out of the realm's affairs and is openly hostile to the North.

I don't think that any battle has taken place before he sends the letter, nor do I think Stannis sent him a false letter saying that he was defeated.  This leaves an odd chronological issue and it's not really necessary for Ramsay's action.  If Jon thinks Stannis had been defeated then it looks like a pardon from Ramsay despite the plot with Mance.  Indeed, Jon at first accepts that he can do nothing and shouldn't be meddling with the realm only to change his mind after thinking of leaving Arya with a man that flays women.

The problems with the letter that point to another author are also easily resolved.  The letter was not in blood because the raven was flying through a storm and in an earlier chapter, Theon notes a raven bringing in a soaked parchment (when Roose supposedly receives the map from Karstark).  Blood might be stylish for Ramsay, but poor for delivering a message in a storm. Ramsay also knows of the sword the same way he knows about Mance, through torture.  When Theon escapes he still has at least 4 alive spearwives and Abel to flay away and it's quite reasonable that one of them would crack, especially since they already accomplished their objective.

The only thing still irking me is the "seven days of battle" line.  I don't quite understand the significance of that.  A religious reference?  A reference to Mance plus his spearwives? A lie to correct a time frame?

I also believe that Stannis does have some use for the maester and the Winterfell ravens but I don't think it's related to Ramsay's letter to the bastard

[evita mgfs]

Budj, on 10 September 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

How the tree can be a Defense - Jon was coming - albeit to WF and not Stannis, but got stabbed.  King's blood could raise him - sacrifice Theon to the trees.  The maester sent a map via Raven to WF....BR/Bran seem to warg those ravens pretty easily.  They bring the map to the wall and Jon knows where to go.  He pulls a "Renly's ghost" and smashes the Frey forces.  Manderly's forces turn cloak on Bolton.

I just wanted to suggest that the tree will be the zone where the murder of ravens gathers, as when Bran and the Reeds and Hodor had the help of a murder of ravens on their journey.  The ravens tear apart the wights, yes?  I am thinking Alfred Hitchcock's the birds.
Moreover, those birds attended a witnessed the mummer's farce that was Bolton's marriage to false Arya.
I like your ideas as well - I am just speculating as everyone does here.