346 replies to this topic

[bemused]

DurararaFTW, on 05 June 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Look at Jon's responnse, he armed the Wildlings, and was prepared to lead them to Winterfell. All Mance's goal achieved I'd say, all that'd be left for him to do is show and take command.

I'm not so sure the wildlings would universally accept Mance's leadership any longer. I think , to some degree , he'd find himself supplanted ( inadvertently ) by Jon...Of course , he wouldn't know that...

If I'm right in thinking that much of Mance's cred with the wildlings came to him through "wise woman " Dalla , with Dalla dead and Val, her sister either by blood or profession , now forming a bond with Jon ( he released her to act as his emissary to Tormund ) .. and considering Tormund's attitude toward Jon , and the support of Jon demonstrated by his behaviour in the sheildhall ...  then even if Mance did write the letter with such intentions , he could be in for a surprise..

Edited by bemused, 07 June 2012 - 02:52 PM.

[DeathFromBelow]

The wildlings no longer have Mance as their symbol. I do believe this has been replaced by Tormund and then finally Jon. IIRC from the book we can say with absolute certainty know that Rattleshirt burnt instead of Mance are Mance, Melisandre, and Jon. When Jon reads the letter to

Tormund says "What was that about Mance? Has him in a cage, does he? How when hundreds saw your red witch burn the man?"
Jon's reply, That was Rattleshirt, Jon almost said. That was sorcery. A glamour, she called it. "Melisandre...look to the skies, she said." He sent the letter down. "A raven in a storm. She saw this coming." When you have your answers, send to me.

Then Tormund states something about if he could read and write he would write about how long and thick his member was, HAR! Tormund says writing something does not make it so.

Jon then says, "He has Lightbringer. He talks of heads upon the walls of Winterfell. He knows about the spearwives and their numbers." He knows about Mance. "No. There is truth in there." pg. 908-909 HC in ADWD.

Still not too sure if Tormund knows about Mance 100%, although Jon does not tell him he then states that Ramsey knows about the spearwives. Maybe Tormund will figure it out if he cares even to.

So basically people would have to believe that Mance is alive, despite only one person claiming that he is a lie. Actually, might be the only true statement in that letter is that Mance Rayder is alive. Come on, Ramsey did not defeat Stannis. It is known.

[Jory's Shade]

I can't believe I had not read Theon I until yesterday...  I feel like I've been cheated for six months in such an awesome way.  That chapter had so much subtext to drive speculation for WoW that I will probably begin a reread... again...

All I can say is wow.  That chapter was GRRM at his best.  Stannis' character development since SoS has been incredible.  Theon gets more and more interesting, and now I am going to look for Bran in every crow call throughout Westeros.

[Rhaegar The Rocker]

Faint, on 03 June 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

No, I do think Ramsay's letter is by his hand. I imagine he wrote and sent it at first word that Stannis had been defeated and 'Arya Stark' sent to the Wall for safe keeping. As for the disparity in forces, I think Stannis possess more than enough with Manderlay to take the castle, especially with the Boltons caught unawares. Also, this isn't about getting all of Stannis' men inside the castle immediately, they just need someone on the inside to open the gates (see Trojan War).

So, to be clear:

1. Stannis and Manderlay combine to slaughter the Frey force.
2. Manderlay returns, with some of Stannis' men dressed as Freys proclaiming victory (with Stannis' sword in hand, as proof).
3. Ramsay writes his letter to Jon Snow.
4. Later that night the gates are opened to allow the remainder of Stannis' men and the remaining Northmen inside to storm the castle while most of the Bolton men are asleep.
5. I also imagine as all of this is going on, many of the Northerners on the Bolton's side will switch allegiance (quite willingly, at that).

I really like this and it seems the most probable outcome I've read so far.  Well said.

[LordDolorousEdd]

I agree with the above post that that is probably the most likely event. As insignificant as this may seem who else would have pink sealing wax? My only question is why ramsay and not roose write the letter? I feel that we keep making complicated reasons for the letter like Stannis or mance trying to draw jon out to help and things like that but I think simple is better and that is......  Ramsay is just an idiot.

[bemused]

I tried to post this earlier , but got caught in a glitch..here's hoping this works

LordDolorousEdd..There's a captive Dreadfort maester in Stannis' camp ..very likely to have some pink sealing wax about him...Maybe not much , but then.. he only needs a "smear".

If Stannis wrote the letter ,probably the most important objective would be to give Jon warning of an impending attack.

[The Great Unwashed]

But it really makes no sense for Stannis to have written the letter.  If he was writing the letter to try to trick Jon into helping him, he would have written that his army was defeated but they had managed to capture Arya and sent her to the Wall and Ramsey was marching on the Wall to bring her back.  It makes no sense for him to pretend to be Ramsey.

[Dornish Bannerman]

Faint, on 03 June 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

No, I do think Ramsay's letter is by his hand. I imagine he wrote and sent it at first word that Stannis had been defeated and 'Arya Stark' sent to the Wall for safe keeping. As for the disparity in forces, I think Stannis possess more than enough with Manderlay to take the castle, especially with the Boltons caught unawares. Also, this isn't about getting all of Stannis' men inside the castle immediately, they just need someone on the inside to open the gates (see Trojan War).

So, to be clear:

1. Stannis and Manderlay combine to slaughter the Frey force.
2. Manderlay returns, with some of Stannis' men dressed as Freys proclaiming victory (with Stannis' sword in hand, as proof).
3. Ramsay writes his letter to Jon Snow.
4. Later that night the gates are opened to allow the remainder of Stannis' men and the remaining Northmen inside to storm the castle while most of the Bolton men are asleep.
5. I also imagine as all of this is going on, many of the Northerners on the Bolton's side will switch allegiance (quite willingly, at that).

I have been thinking along the same lines as well, and this is very plausible.

[Faint]

One thing my theory doesn't account for is how Theon and/or Asha will fit into the battle sequence (and one of them will have to, since they are the only POVs there).

I'm quite sure Theon is fated to survive in the short term but I don't quite know how. I'm also a firm believer that Theon and Asha taking back the Seastone Chair is going to be a developing storyline (far too much groundwork has been laid to abandon it now).

So I'm working under those two assumptions.

[Maxpey]

Concerning the fate of Asha and Theon, perhaps GRRM will send them back to Pyke to re-open the Kingsmoot.  Perhaps their role (at least one of the characters) will be to convince the rest of the Ironborn to renounce Euron and to join with the rest of Westeros against the pending invasion by the Others (assuming that plot line occurs).

[Faint]

Maxpey, on 12 June 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Concerning the fate of Asha and Theon, perhaps GRRM will send them back to Pyke to re-open the Kingsmoot.  Perhaps their role (at least one of the characters) will be to convince the rest of the Ironborn to renounce Euron and to join with the rest of Westeros against the pending invasion by the Others (assuming that plot line occurs).

I was toying with the idea of Stannis keeping Asha while he sends off Theon and Asha's men back to Pyke (picking up Dagmer Cleftjaw and his crew along the way). One way or another, one of the two has to stay in order to detail the battle but by having Theon go that would at least expedite that storyline somewhat.

Edited by Faint, 12 June 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[Azor Azai]

Asha needs Theon alive to reconstitute the Kingsmoot and knock Euron off the throne, maybe she'll stay with Stannis as a hostage and Theon sent home with the other Ironborn. Theon runs into Damphair, who drowns him and brings him back.  At this point it will be an epiphany for Theon, having been brought to the dark depths of his soul, he is now reborn, "that which is dead cannot die..."  he'll be hard and twisted, the ideal Ironborn Lord. He'll kill and or maim a few and the rest will flock to his side at the new Kingsmoot.  


I'll take bets on whether or not he flays Euron.

[The Great Unwashed]

Azor Azai, on 13 June 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Asha needs Theon alive to reconstitute the Kingsmoot and knock Euron off the throne, maybe she'll stay with Stannis as a hostage and Theon sent home with the other Ironborn. Theon runs into Damphair, who drowns him and brings him back.  At this point it will be an epiphany for Theon, having been brought to the dark depths of his soul, he is now reborn, "that which is dead cannot die..."  he'll be hard and twisted, the ideal Ironborn Lord. He'll kill and or maim a few and the rest will flock to his side at the new Kingsmoot.  


I'll take bets on whether or not he flays Euron.

The ironborn will never accept Theon as their king now.  Not only is he half-mad from the torture he's endured at Ramsey's hands, but he's also weak and broken.  The ironborn revere strength and weakness is anathema to them.  When you add that to the fact that he's been...unmanned...then the idea of Theon becoming King of the Ironborn becomes a pipe dream.

[JonTargaryenW/Viserion4WIN]

Not sure if I stole this idea from the forums or from conversations with friends but...

Stannis indicates that he has the upper hand in an impending battle. " We hold the ground...". When Theon questions him he says,"What ground?... [there are] no natural defenses."
To this Stannis replies "Yet."

There is only one natural defense and that is the lake.  They have cut holes in the ice to fish through and turned it into swiss cheese. With a fresh snow fall however those holes would be imperceptible and as soon as Bolton forces marched across it to meet Stannis's army they would fall through. A well timed fire/explosion/anything-really could set off a chain reaction and swallow all their troops at once after they were all atop the ice.

I think Stannis will provoke the Boltons to attack by sending word with the ravens and possibly by letting it slip that he has Reek and that the Karstarks have turned cloak to Stannis's side.

[bemused]

Great Unwashed.. have you read the Theon gift chapter, yet ?..The ravens in Stannis' camp belong to the Dreadfort maester. They are all "destination Winterfell " ravens...but their behavior makes us feel they are being controlled by Bran and Bloodraven. Something might happen ( I would bet at the weirwood ) to give Stannis the idea that just maybe they could fly to Jon... In case that idea is wrong , he would want to make the letter sound like it's from Ramsay. ( If the raven flew to WF , Stannis wouldn't want Roose to know he's alive. )

He would not be trying to trick Jon .. he'd be trying to warn him that Ramsay was on his way to the wall , bent on destruction and wanting to demand every hostage he could get his hands on. After Ramsay was taken care of , I'm sure he'd appreciate help himself, but the main concern would be to keep Ramsay from over running Castle Black. Secondarily, would be ( in any order ) 1. to let him know "Arya" was on her way..2. Perhaps a hint at Mance's situation (It's possible that Stannis may be able to figure out Abel is Mance , depending on the content of the conversations Stannis had with Mance. ) .. 3. help for himself in the form of supplies and / or wildlings ( He knows about Tormund's people since the arrival of Tycho Nestoris and the letter from Jon.)

Edited by bemused, 14 June 2012 - 09:09 PM.

[kha_alim]

The Great Unwashed, on 14 June 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

The ironborn will never accept Theon as their king now.  Not only is he half-mad from the torture he's endured at Ramsey's hands, but he's also weak and broken.  The ironborn revere strength and weakness is anathema to them.  When you add that to the fact that he's been...unmanned...then the idea of Theon becoming King of the Ironborn becomes a pipe dream.

What is dead may never die!
“ Priest:"Let <person> your servant be born again from the sea, as you were. Bless him with salt, bless him with stone, bless him with steel."
Response:"What is dead may never die."
Priest:"What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger"^[2] ”

let <person> = Theon.
Theon died. He has been dead for years. Now he's back. ...somewhat... he is still rising, ... harder and stronger. By the time he gets back to the Iron Islands he will be a different person. Harder, Stronger.  The Ironborn will follow him.
Also, it's been quite some time since I read the reek chapters, was Theon really cut the way Varys was or did he just use it as a metaphor for his weakness/cowardice?

[The Great Unwashed]

kha_alim, on 15 June 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

What is dead may never die!
“ Priest:"Let <person> your servant be born again from the sea, as you were. Bless him with salt, bless him with stone, bless him with steel."
Response:"What is dead may never die."
Priest:"What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger"^[2] ”

let <person> = Theon.
Theon died. He has been dead for years. Now he's back. ...somewhat... he is still rising, ... harder and stronger. By the time he gets back to the Iron Islands he will be a different person. Harder, Stronger.  The Ironborn will follow him.
Also, it's been quite some time since I read the reek chapters, was Theon really cut the way Varys was or did he just use it as a metaphor for his weakness/cowardice?

Varys states at one point that he was cut "root and stem", which to me indicates that he has nothing at all between the legs.  I don't know if Theon was cut in the same manner, but it is clearly implied during Jeyne's bedding when Ramsey tells Theon to get her ready that he is no longer able to function as a man in that manner.  He also makes several other sideways references to it throughout his chapters.

I get what you're saying, but I think that Theon's redemption, if he manages to escape execution at the hands of either Stannis or the northmen, or return to the tender mercies of Ramsey, lies down a different path.  Not to mention that before Ramsey captured Theon, Theon was pretty much a joke among the other ironborn.  Things might have been different if he had been able to hold Winterfell, but short of an outright miracle, I don't see Theon changing that perception of him among the ironborn.

[Jolene Brown]

That letter sounds too much like Ramsay to have been written by anyone but Ramsay.  It may be full of lies, but Ramsay wrote it.  I can't see any of the suggested suspects: Mance, Theon, Roose (?), someone on Stannis's behalf, getting the tone that right, even Theon.  

I'm sad after finally reading the sample chapter that Theon is chained so brutally.  Can't they just give him a little cell and some warm milk or something?  Jesus.  Asha is tough.  If I had to see a brother of mine in that condition, no matter what he had done to deserve it, I think it would completely break me.  That little part where she says "It is," so softly that he thinks she is going to cry, is really sad.

[WetHair]

I'm with you, Jolene, about Theon's treatment.  I was very upset that he was chained as I was hoping that he would get a break since he helped free fake Arya and knows an awful lot of extremely valuable information.

I imagine it's no different at all, but I wonder if being chained six feet off the floor is any worse than being six inches off the floor.  I suppose not!

[The Red Hand]

The Great Unwashed, on 14 June 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

The ironborn will never accept Theon as their king now.  Not only is he half-mad from the torture he's endured at Ramsey's hands, but he's also weak and broken.  The ironborn revere strength and weakness is anathema to them.  When you add that to the fact that he's been...unmanned...then the idea of Theon becoming King of the Ironborn becomes a pipe dream.

I think that throughout his story in ADWD Theon slowly goes from being broken Reek back to Theon. He's not quite there yet but I think in say 5 years he could be back to normal (if he survives that long). And whether or not Theon is actually a eunuch is something I think GRRM was puposely vague about.