347 replies to this topic

[ghost rider2]

skorpion, on 18 May 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I thought it was interesting when Stannis says

"In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true.

So, it seems that Stannis is expecting people to think he is dead, possibly because he is planning to fake his death?

Or that he knows of/has a hand in Ramsey's letter to Jon

[MikeDC]

mushroomshirt, on 10 May 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

I agree.  In fact I think GRRM agrees.  He basically tells us that the letter is at least partially fake in this interview.

I was pretty sure the letter was written by Mance before reading this interview, but isn't it kind of telling that GRRM puts the two together so clearly in that quote:

Quote

GRRM: My readers should know better than to take anything as gospel, unless they see it for themselves, and even then I do sometimes use “unreliable narrator.” No. They should not take that as the truth. What about Mance Rayder, did you think he was really dead?

Seriously, the idea that it's Ramsay or Stannis has never made much sense to me.

It's not Stannis because he doesn't have the information needed to write the letter (he thinks Mance is dead, and even if he had spies in Winterfell, they'd identify Mance as "Abel" and wouldn't notice anything askew from him.

It's not Ramsay because, because of the information problem as well (he doesn't seem to know about most of the stuff in the letter). Most importantly though, it just seems like, from a story-telling perspective, it'd just be a random and idiotic plot contrivance to have Ramsay suddenly pick a fight with Jon. They've never met, and while Ramsay's a psychopath, he's generally acted fairly intelligently to preserve himself and further his station. Even under the most generous circumstances we could imagine, (suppose he really did capture Mance and defeat Stannis), it seems like it would be very out of his established character to randomly send a letter to the wall. Makes no sense.

[bemused]

Stannis knows about Mance. If you look back at all his conversations with Jon since the battle at the wall , and at how Mel and Mance don't tell Jon outright that he didn't know ,it seems very very likely that he knows .

[The Great Unwashed]

If the letter actually is from Ramsey (which I'm far from convinced that it is) I think it could be speculated with a fair amount of confidence that Roose is dead.  Roose would never pick a fight with the Night's Watch, especially since so many of the Northern houses are friends of the Watch.  If Ramsey wrote the letter, Roose is dead and his alliance is falling apart.  After the death of Tywin, Roose and the Arya charade were the only things holding that alliance together.  Jeyne/Arya is missing, and if Roose is dead houses will start leaving Ramsey in droves.

[MikeDC]

bemused, on 20 May 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Stannis knows about Mance. If you look back at all his conversations with Jon since the battle at the wall , and at how Mel and Mance don't tell Jon outright that he didn't know ,it seems very very likely that he knows .

Yeah, I went back and re-read those chapters and you're pretty obviously right. In one in particular, Stannis is sitting the room with "Rattleshirt" and "gives" him to a horrified Jon. It seems very likely now that Stannis was yanking his chain and very unlikely that Stannis would have been fooled by sort of glamours he's been watching Mel perform for a long time anyway.

[TheNorthernWarrior]

The Great Unwashed, on 20 May 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

If the letter actually is from Ramsey (which I'm far from convinced that it is) I think it could be speculated with a fair amount of confidence that Roose is dead.  Roose would never pick a fight with the Night's Watch, especially since so many of the Northern houses are friends of the Watch.  If Ramsey wrote the letter, Roose is dead and his alliance is falling apart.  After the death of Tywin, Roose and the Arya charade were the only things holding that alliance together.  Jeyne/Arya is missing, and if Roose is dead houses will start leaving Ramsey in droves.

Or, instead of dead, Roose just went home to the Dreadfort? If the letter is from Ramsay I have always assumed it was after the battle with Stannis and it goes badly, he runs back to Winterfell only to find Roose is gone home with his men leaving Ramsay no way to defend the castle. At this point the only ones left are Mance and is crew, as Roose would not take them. Ramsay either writes the letter out of panic, or was forced by Mance?

[AegonSnow]

What if the letter is from a person at the Wall?  

To lure Jon into a trap.

1. Numerous people DO NOT like him

[MikeDC]

AegonSnow, on 23 May 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

What if the letter is from a person at the Wall?  

To lure Jon into a trap.

1. Numerous people DO NOT like him

Seems like those guys could have taken a simpler approach and just stabbed him repeatedly.