[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 5

[mushroomshirt]

I was responding to Perpetual Bran's post (he was responding to your post which I guess gets confusing). He says it sounds like Ramsay wrote the letter himself which I agree with. I think what happened is Stannis used the Karstark maester to trick Ramsay into believing that he is dead. With a captured spearwife / Mance then Ramsay has all the information he needs to write the letter, believing that its contents are actualy true. I think this is supported by the Stannis telling Massey to expect to hear that he is dead. (this is what Veltigar was saying in the post I referenced earlier - he quite persuaded me)

I don't think that Mance wrote the letter but of course cannot rule it out. My personal opinion is that Ramsay wrote the letter after receiving a deceptive letter from Stannis. If you haven't seen it there is some interesting discussion going on in this thread about the same topic.

[Perpetual Bran]

There is still the matter of the wax, why wouldn't Ramsay seal the letter with his own seal properly?

[mushroomshirt]

There is still the matter of the wax, why wouldn't Ramsay seal the letter with his own seal properly?

There is some debate as to whether there is a Bolton seal at all (at least one that Ramsay has). The "piece of prince" letters were sealed with a "button" of hard pink wax, IIRC. There is no mention of a Bolton seal that Ramsay has access to. This might make sense because Ramsay is lord of the Hornwood, not the Dreadfort. Presumably if there is a Bolton seal Roose would have it, not Ramsay.

[Perpetual Bran]

Well, then Ramsay isn't very used to being true born after all.

[Veltigar]

Well, then Ramsay isn't very used to being true born after all.

I don't think the Boltons need a seal. There aren't many Houses that use Pink as signature color and of those that use it the Boltons are probably the oldest, so using just pink wax makes sense for them (also, who would be daft enough to forge a Bolton letter. You do not mess with those guys)

[Veltigar]

I think you are right which is why I think Veltigar nailed it in this post.

It really makes the most sense, IMO.

:cheers:

[Perpetual Bran]

I don't think the Boltons need a seal. There aren't many Houses that use Pink as signature color and of those that use it the Boltons are probably the oldest, so using just pink wax makes sense for them (also, who would be daft enough to forge a Bolton letter. You do not mess with those guys)

Ramsay doesn't use a seal, that's clear. I had just forgotten about the "Piece of Prince" letters, that's why i raised the issue, but seals are generally more effective against forgery than just a signature color. If an old house didn't have a seal, all kinds of trouble could be stirred for them by the likes of Varys for example, or anybody just smart enough to try.

Also, for a house aspiring to take the lead, they gotta have a little style.

As to who could be daft enough? Definitely not Stannis or Reek. I think Mance or Asha would have the best chance if it was indeed forged, which seems to be less likely than the opposite scenario, but not totally ruled out.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Here's what I think happened...

The Grand Northern Conspiracy is true, it's pretty clear that multiple northern lords currently residing in Winterfell are conspiring against the Boltons. Their plan is to somehow play them and Stannis out against each other.

At some point, they joined up with Abel. How that contact came about, I do not know. But then again, I also don't know how Littlefinger might have approached the Queen of Thornes about killing Joffrey. It just happened somehow.

Now the fake letter from Stannis arrives, with the news of his death and their plan is fucked (or so they believe). They have to get help from somewhere else in order to destroy the Boltons. This is where Mance comes in and suggests faking this letter supposedly written by Ramsay. Knowing Jon, he could expect that he would never just give in to the demands, but instead rally up as many swords as he could and march on Winterfell instead.

What reasons are there, that I prefer this theory over the more obvious explanation, that Ramsay wrote the letter himself?

1.) Wishful thinking ;) I just don't want Mance to be caught by Ramsay, he's such a strong character and I'd hate to see him broken by his torture

2.) It's not really GRRM's style to tell us about important plot-changing turns like this offscreen. It is however his style to use this technique in order to mislead us (see: Davos' beheading)

3.) The way in which he uses the word "bastard." Now I know that Ramsay does use that word too, but the only instance I remember was, when he called his horse a "bastard." He never used it to refer to an actual bastard, and I do not think that he would do that, since it has to remind him of what he is. On the other hand, that style is very similar to the way Mance talks to Jon

4.) The letter doesn't bear the Bolton seal, it's just a smear of pink wax. This is the strongest hint in my opinion. "In reality" that wouldn't mean as much, but the fact that GRRM put that in must have some significance. Why else would he write that? Just to fuck with us? Nah...

Oh, and totally unrelated to that: I liked the fact that Bran warged into the Ravens in order to manipulate Stannis into sacrificing Theon at a weirwood tree. Our little boy is going down a dark road. :)

Below is my post from earlier it is almost exactly the same as yours. And I also said earlier that this is not a greek-drama where huge stuff liek this happens off-stage then we hear about it later. so we are in complete agreement :cheers:

Mance sent the letter. When he is at the wall posing as Rattleshirt, he refers to Jon as "Bastard" about a dozen times. Same as the letter. The question is why did Mance send it under the guise of Ramsay Snow? also why didn't Jon pick up on who it was really from?

1. mance wants Jon to bring an army of wildlings and knights watchmen south to help do something and was tricking Jon into it

2. Mance thought Jon would figure out who the letter was really from and wanted Jon and only Jon to know that Winterfell was secure.

3. mance is tricking Jon to get him killed (unlikely IMO)

4. mance was worried about the letter getting intercepted by the Bolton men, so he wrote it under the guise of 'Ramsay is still in charge of Winterfell' so no more Bolton men would come to Ramsay's rescue. In which case he wanted Jon to come with another army to back up the small band of Wildlings with mance who are now holding Winterfell (this seems most likely to me)

I am going with number 4 because mance is in a tight situation. he has Ramsay chained to a wall somewhere in WF with 5 women and no army. Jon won't come down from the wall for any reason except an extremely threatening letter from Ramsay like he received. mance is one of the smartest and most clever people in the books. i do not believe for one second Ramsay captured and killed him, but I do believe that Jon would only head south under the most dire circumstances. so Mance had to trick him.

[Hildefuns]

Just my opinion about what´s coming next:

1. The letter was, of course, fake. Stannis is not death. Ramsay asks for Theon, that was a prison of Stannis in WOW Theon I. In case Stannis was defeated and Ramsay wrote the letter after that, he should know that Theon is not with Jon, as it´s supposed in the letter.

2. Despite his Caesar´s style stabbing, with Melissandre at walking distance, probably Jon will be resurrected. If Thoros can, Meli can.Red priest are allways avaliable when needed. Another one is with Victarion "just in case". Victarion is not only bringing ships and a very useful horn for Danaerys. Melissandre is probably thinking know that she was wrong and Azor Ahai is not Stannis, is Jon.

3. Jon´s father could be Robert Baratheon, that could be why there´s and understood between Stannis and him, cause Stannis could be his uncle. His mother could be a Targaryen. After properly resurrected, could be a good couple for Danaerys, while the daughter of Stannis could be a good fiancee for Dany´s young brother.

4. I think the author is having great plans but short life for Stannis. Not in vain he´s the legitimate king. He will for sure survive his "Napoleon in Russia" campaing and beat the Boltons, Freys and such minor houses. After Davos is back with Rickon, the north will support him as king and Rickon Stark as lord and end their independence dream. He will also probably make a stand against the first wave of walking deaths. Probably he will be king for a short time. But at some point his daugther will inheritage the kingdom. Would Val be right when she told that she was doomed?.

[Borsabil]

Just my opinion about what´s coming next:

1. The letter was, of course, fake. Stannis is not death. Ramsay asks for Theon, that was a prison of Stannis in WOW Theon I. In case Stannis was defeated and Ramsay wrote the letter after that, he should know that Theon is not with Jon, as it´s supposed in the letter.

2. Despite his Caesar´s style stabbing, with Melissandre at walking distance, probably Jon will be resurrected. If Thoros can, Meli can.Red priest are allways avaliable when needed. Another one is with Victarion "just in case". Victarion is not only bringing ships and a very useful horn for Danaerys. Melissandre is probably thinking know that she was wrong and Azor Ahai is not Stannis, is Jon.

3. Jon´s father could be Robert Baratheon, that could be why there´s and understood between Stannis and him, cause Stannis could be his uncle. His mother could be a Targaryen. After properly resurrected, could be a good couple for Danaerys, while the daughter of Stannis could be a good fiancee for Dany´s young brother.

4. I think the author is having great plans but short life for Stannis. Not in vain he´s the legitimate king. He will for sure survive his "Napoleon in Russia" campaing and beat the Boltons, Freys and such minor houses. After Davos is back with Rickon, the north will support him as king and Rickon Stark as lord and end their independence dream. He will also probably make a stand against the first wave of walking deaths. Probably he will be king for a short time. But at some point his daugther will inheritage the kingdom. Would Val be right when she told that she was doomed?.

Melissandre has shown no ability to revive the dead, and it's not like she hasn't had ample opportunity to do so given the number of people being deaded through following Stannis. There seems to be an assumption that any red priest can give the kiss and revive a dead person when in fact the only one we know for sure who has EVER performed this feet is Thoros.

[aryagonnakill]

Melissandre has shown no ability to revive the dead, and it's not like she hasn't had ample opportunity to do so given the number of people being deaded through following Stannis. There seems to be an assumption that any red priest can give the kiss and revive a dead person when in fact the only one we know for sure who has EVER performed this feet is Thoros.

This is incorrect, we know Beric did it as well. We also know several other things which indirectly hint at it.

1. Melissandre has real power at the wall.

2. Melissandre does not have to eat, drink, or sleep

3. Melissandre gives off heat

4. I state it likely that Melissandre is dead and has been revived, so that she certainly knows this is possible.

5. While your reasoning of 'we don't have definite proof she can do this' is not technically wrong, it is pretty limited, we don't have definitive proof that she can't, and we actually know that no person can do it anyway, they say the words and the red god chooses to revive them or not, if he has a purpose for them he will.

6. Without it leading to something big, there was no need for Beric to have died to show us the kiss of life in the first place.

7. You state she has had ample time and opportunity to revive the dead and hasn't, but who would she have wanted to revive? Name one person that died she gave a rats ass about, or didn't kill personally.

8. Melissandre has been receiving visions for some years now sending her to Stanis Baratheon, she has become convinced from these visions that he is AAR, but we the readers know this is def not true. It is more likely if anything that he becomes the nights king than AAR. But, Melissandres of Stannis have brought an army or Rhllor supports and herself to the wall, and to Jon, and now when she asks for a vision of AAR all she see's is snow. If Mel becomes convinced Jon is AAR, she will at least try to revive him.

[Kronz]

I have not had time to read the rest of the Theon preview chapter threads but maybe someone can simply answer this (again?)

Why do people think Theon's chapter takes place prior to Jon's final DWD chapter? I can't understand why GRRM would do that.

[mushroomshirt]

Why do people think Theon's chapter takes place prior to Jon's final DWD chapter? I can't understand why GRRM would do that.

This is one reason (link)

edit (for those who prefer not to follow the link):

Yesterday, George R. R. Martin released an early excerpt ofThe Winds of Winter, Book 6 in his Song of Ice & Fire series. It’s a Theon Greyjoy chapter, one that George admits takes place before certain finishing chapters in A Dance With Dragons. This excerpt should appear early in The Winds of Winter.

[Kronz]

Excellent answer, thank you. That still strikes me as sloppy storytelling but I am sure it will all fall into place in due time. Mysterious stuff.

[Borsabil]

This is incorrect, we know Beric did it as well. We also know several other things which indirectly hint at it.

1. Melissandre has real power at the wall.

2. Melissandre does not have to eat, drink, or sleep

3. Melissandre gives off heat

4. I state it likely that Melissandre is dead and has been revived, so that she certainly knows this is possible.

5. While your reasoning of 'we don't have definite proof she can do this' is not technically wrong, it is pretty limited, we don't have definitive proof that she can't, and we actually know that no person can do it anyway, they say the words and the red god chooses to revive them or not, if he has a purpose for them he will.

6. Without it leading to something big, there was no need for Beric to have died to show us the kiss of life in the first place.

7. You state she has had ample time and opportunity to revive the dead and hasn't, but who would she have wanted to revive? Name one person that died she gave a rats ass about, or didn't kill personally.

8. Melissandre has been receiving visions for some years now sending her to Stanis Baratheon, she has become convinced from these visions that he is AAR, but we the readers know this is def not true. It is more likely if anything that he becomes the nights king than AAR. But, Melissandres of Stannis have brought an army or Rhllor supports and herself to the wall, and to Jon, and now when she asks for a vision of AAR all she see's is snow. If Mel becomes convinced Jon is AAR, she will at least try to revive him.

As I mentioned on another thread Martin has stated that the Gods in ASOIAF are false, so the power to revive Thoros does not come from Rhllor. As for Dendarrion reviving zombie Catelyn we only have the word of Thoros on that, and I think he's lying. Motive? Shame for reviving a three day old, decomposing corpse. Horror at the monster he's created. I think he was desperate to revive the fortunes of the brotherhood, that he reanimated the mother of the King and a Tully to rally the small folk and disaffected nobles in the Riverlands, and it's ended up spectacularly backfiring with the BWB becoming a band of cutthroat outlaws under Lady Stoneheart. As for Bedric he's either deaded for the final time, probably killed off by Zombie Cate or he's off leading a splinter group.

[aryagonnakill]

As I mentioned on another thread Martin has stated that the Gods in ASOIAF are false, so the power to revive Thoros does not come from Rhllor. As for Dendarrion reviving zombie Catelyn we only have the word of Thoros on that, and I think he's lying. Motive? Shame for reviving a three day old, decomposing corpse. Horror at the monster he's created. I think he was desperate to revive the fortunes of the brotherhood, that he reanimated the mother of the King and a Tully to rally the small folk and disaffected nobles in the Riverlands, and it's ended up spectacularly backfiring with the BWB becoming a band of cutthroat outlaws under Lady Stoneheart. As for Bedric he's either deaded for the final time, probably killed off by Zombie Cate or he's off leading a splinter group.

Yes, its definitely reasonable to think that a character lied about his undead creature reviving another undead creature rather than just say he did it, good catch. And as for the gods being false, your just being difficult now. WTF is the difference in saying gods or magic or whatever, a human being isn't going shabam your alive now.

[aryagonnakill]

Yes, its definitely reasonable to think that a character lied about his undead creature reviving another undead creature rather than just say he did it, good catch. And as for the gods being false, your just being difficult now. WTF is the difference in saying gods or magic or whatever, a human being isn't going shabam your alive now.

Edit: And Rhllor might not be the actual name of the god but its pretty obvious that there is fire magic of some kind and this isn't a theoretical debate to go all chicken and egg about the universe itself being god or something else entirely creating the magic yada yada. magic and god are interchangeable in this context.

[Borsabil]

Yes, its definitely reasonable to think that a character lied about his undead creature reviving another undead creature rather than just say he did it, good catch. And as for the gods being false, your just being difficult now. WTF is the difference in saying gods or magic or whatever, a human being isn't going shabam your alive now.

Thoros sees himself as a good man, a drunk and letch sure, but a good person for all that. So sure I think he'd feel shame for creating a murdering monster. As for the false Gods, well if the power to wake the dead does not come from Rhllor, then there is no reason to think that being a red priest has much of anything to do with possessing this ability. As I said, if Melissandre is a necromancer why haven't we seen her use this power in the books? She's a flashy show off who boasts of her abilities, why hasn't she? Only plausible explanation being she can't. I'm thinking people are assuming she can because it fits with their pet theories regarding the future of Jon.

[Prince of the North]

As I mentioned on another thread Martin has stated that the Gods in ASOIAF are false...

I'd be very interested in this quote or source if it's not too much trouble.

[Borsabil]

I'd be very interested in this quote or source if it's not too much trouble.

http://io9.com/5822939/george-rr-martin-explains-why-well-never-meet-any-gods-in-a-song-of-ice-and-fire

"Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" — whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions too. Are some of them more true than others? I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out."