509 replies to this topic

[greensleeves]

Tumnas the Torpid, on 22 May 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

I mean to say that the time Sansa has spent in the power of Cersei and Baelish may mold her into a person best suited to play like (and possibly best) Cersei and Baelish.

I completely agree that Sansa is becoming a better player.  Sorry for the confusion... I think I've been up too long.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

greensleeves, on 22 May 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

I completely agree that Sansa is becoming a better player. Sorry for the confusion... I think I've been up too long.

Same here.

[Rapsie]

Tumnas the Torpid, on 22 May 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Sorry, I stepped out for a moment.  What I mean is that, Sansa has now spent most of the series in the power of players of the Game of Thrones (first Cersei, then Littlefinger).  I expect that, before the end of the series, she will at least attempt to take her fate into her own hands, and I imagine that this will take place as Sansa's emergence as a player in her own right, just like others here presumably do.  Without knowing it, she has been preparing for this througout the series.  By observing and growing to understand the actions of her captors, she has been training for the game, and some of Littlefinger's statements in Feast suggest that he intends to accelerate this process.

Now, Martin has gone out of his way, on many occasions, to tell us that Sansa is beautiful.  And our experience tells us that this can be an asset, in the Game of Thrones.  Moreover, Sansa has been through several traumatic near-sexual experiences, and this, combined with the generally traumatic nature of her life since that day at Baelor's, suggests to me that she may end up very emotionally detached, both in general, and from her sex drive, specifically.  In light of this, I would not be surprised that Sansa's emergence as a player may involve a Cersei-esque willingness to use sex as tool.

I would like to clarify that I would not view this as a moral failing, on her part.  In fact, when I say Cersei 2.0, I mean it literally - as in, a better version of Cersei.  Both morally, and practically (as in, a better player of the Game).

Nothing is ever old hat! And welcome to the thread.

I would certainly say we have seen Sansa going on a parallel path to Cersei and there are scenes which emphasis it, such as the scene between them at the Battle of Blackwater and more subtle scene such as choosing the same style of dress when Cersei is meeting the High Septon and Sansa is meeting the Lords Declarent.

There are some good historical comparisons (and possibly basis) for both Cersei and Sansa's characters: Mary Queen of Scots and Elizabeth I being two in point. The major difference between them seems to be Cersei wanted power and Sansa wants to be safe and ,  AFFC at least, have a family (Sweetrobin maybe souring her of this notion as well her experience with Tyrion, souring her on marriage).  Both women have been thrust into situations where they have done their best to survive, but Sansa's skill set has been better developed because of everything she has been through. Cersei's introduction to the treacheries of court life, seems to have been a slow one because she was immediately in a position of power as Queen. Sansa however was thrown in the deep end after her father died and has had to learn some tough lesson very fast. Again this corresponds to Elizabeth I who was under serious threat from her elder sister and learned very quickly to be careful of what she said and did.

However I am still unsure if Sansa will ever stop being Alyane Stone. The major difference between her and Cersei, is that she doesn't want to be Queen anymore. She just wants to feel safe and have friends and family around her, like when she was at Winterfell.

[Lady.]

I think this is an excellent and incredibly well thought out post Queen Cersei - although I don't entirely agree with all your conclusions!

The two I wanted to touch upon are the following:

Queen Cersei I, on 22 May 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

...Similarly, GRRM falls into this trap quite frequently with Arrianne Martell. (More so, IMO, than any other female character.) She is, on the surface, as you say, a woman in charge of her sexuality. However, there are numerous scenes and instances that I take issue with. It seems to me she is sexualized (and objectified) at numerous points; and not in a way that adds to her characterization or storyline in any meaningful way-- it seems Arrianne’s anatomy is described and ogled for no other purpose than… well, ogling. For instance, the following is one such example: And then a page later: In my eyes, the following holds very little point, and is a rather sleazy and gratuitous example of Arrianne being objectified. Of course, I have no problem with breast descriptions, however, there is a fine line between portraying a woman as a sexual (and attractive) human being and “sexualizing” her as an object. I’d say that GRRM’s prose veers far into the latter, with Arrianne as well as with some other females.

While I don't entirely disagree that the descriptions may err on the side of the gratuitous, and please do correct me if I'm wrong in this, but I believe the descriptions arise in Arys' chapter? So for me it makes sense that these incredibly sexualized descriptions are written in such a way when it's a male POV. My only complaint in this regard then, is not in the descriptive writing of female sexuality or responsiveness, but the lack of equal description for men. In fact, I think Arrianne's use of her sexuality is incredibly effective - she wanted to get Arys' support. In the end he ultimately dies for her and for her cause. So I would say that's fairly effective. However, her plot unravelling and her aquiescence to her father is certainly another topic worth discussing.

The second point I wanted to touch upon is:

Quote

...To me the problematic issue is the extensive amount of time spent on Cersei’s sexual behavior. More time in AFFC is spent describing how she gave guys hand jobs than is dedicated to her actual crimes, which are often mentioned in passing. For instance, a sample: [/i] Okay, so portraying highly sexed and sexually active women proves that GRRM is okay with sexual females. However, what’s the point of the above? He seems hung up on demonizing Cersei’s sexual behavior to an extensive, even disturbing degree.

I can only speak personally when I say that I never read any of Cersei's sexual behavior as demonized. As discussed previously, there is only a certain amount of capital that women in Westeros are in possession of, and sex, is one of them. Tyrion is able to literally buy his allegiance, by continually promising that Casterly Rock will pay his debts, but does Cersei have this same ability? Certainly she does buy allegiance to a large extent, but I always got the impression she had less authority to generate personal debt than Tyrion did. More importantly, what I think GRRM is showing is not that sexualized females are in themselves negative, but an over reliance on sex as a payment mechanism or a way to buy allegiance is.

In fact I find that scene with Lady Merrywether quite sad. This is a moment where Cersei truly wants to feel like a man - what it must feel like to have sexual power and dominance over a woman. In other words, she wants to be in the opposing role that she has so often been in. And yet she finds the act empty and hollow. She doesn't find the excitement or fulfillment in it that she expected. Again, I think this shores up the notion that GRRM is trying to imply that sex used as a mode of power (whether by the giver or the receiver) is negative - it's hollow, unenjoyable and ultimately, ineffective.

What this means for Sansa's own sexual development remains to be seen - or at least, I don't have definitive thoughts on it yet

Edited by Lady., 22 May 2012 - 08:29 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Queen Cersei I, on 22 May 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

  When men write coming of age from a female perspective, the trap (in my experience) is generally objectifying and sexualizing these women/ girls rather than portraying them as human beings first and foremost.

I’d say that GRRM by no means completely avoids falling into this tendency. For instance, he has described the wedding night of 13 year old Danerys, in which she is screwed by a grown man she has been sold to, as one of the most romantic scenes in the book.

Very nice post Queen Cersei. I love that you make me consider and re-evaluate my standpoint.

Regarding the description(s) of awakening female sexuality, I don't actually think that we disagree a whole lot. In fact, I think that you misunderstood me correctly, if that makes sense! In so far as your bolded statement above is something I completely agree with. Female sexual awakening tends to be either completely glossed over (i.e. only exist in binaries, as in "before she met hero" and "after she met hero", which makes it completely dependant on a specific man to exist. The other alternative is the one you describe, where it becomes gratuitous and objectifying instead.

Dany I think falls into the first category of a completely binary sexuality. First she hasn't got any, and then it's magically "there", but also completely dependant on Drogo (which also ties into the pointless lesbianism for me, since it's described again that her sexuality exists only in relation to a man, and absolutely never alone).

Arianne and Asha I don't think really count as sexual awakening since they are already there when we encounter them. Sansa on the other hand is still growing and is still going through the phases of realising her own sexuality. So far Sansa has also had more stages described than poor Dany ever got. Dany was an OFF - ON switch while with Sansa we see her immature crush on Joffrey, her being bedazzled by pretty Loras and wanting to run her hands over his chest and then thinking about kissing first Loras and then the Hound. In late ASOS and in AFFC we also have some brief thoughts about marriage beds and what goes on there. So far, Sansa's development I think has been handled fairly well since there's been a gradual movement to more adult themes, while avoiding the worst of the pitfalls of objectifying her. Hopefully this can continue so we don't get another Dany situation.

I'd actually say that I think Dany of ADWD is more reaistic to me than Dany of AGOT when it comes to how she feels and relates to sex and sexuality. She feels more human and her choices of engaging or abstaining are both more problematised but also intrisically her own. It's also a paralell to Tyrion in how she uses sex as as substitute for real intimacy and love (both with Daario and even with Hizdahr. I felt really sorry for her when after marrying Hizdahr she thinks when she wakes up that she wishes he would just hold her. Poor Dany, that's such a dreadful low point for her that she'll even turn to the husband she had to marry for power when she's looking for any sort of human contact and intimacy.)

If we move on to Arianne, I agree with you that Arys' chapters really portray Arianne as very much a sex object and she's always described in very physical terms. I do think there is a different in tone between Arys_POV_on_Arianne and Arianne's_POV_on_Arianne. Where we see Arys we see Arianne as some sort of sex dream, while when we see the world through her eyes, it feels qutie different. I haven't read Arys and Arianne's chapters for a while, but that's at least my memory of them, so I may not be completely correct in this. Could probably use having another look through and compare. The same is true for Asha I think. To me, Arianne and Asha are quite similar as type of characters. Sure, they had to some degree get granted power from their fathers, but on the other hand they also did get it through efforts of their own and not by sitting around waiting for it to falling into their laps. I don't think Ariannce can be blamed for not being Wonder Woman and getting out of her prison. Even the most awesome  women will occasionally run into difficulties of one type of another. I also think part of the blame for Arianne's failed plot should fall on Doran, since he should have included her earlier and trusted her more. That was his failing, not hers.

I have some thoughts on your Cersei writeup as well, and comparisons to where I think Sansa is heading wrt LF's teachings and possible future role as seductress, but running out of time (cursed conferences and their buggered WiFi!).

[brashcandy]

Tumnas the Torpid, on 22 May 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Sorry, I stepped out for a moment.  What I mean is that, Sansa has now spent most of the series in the power of players of the Game of Thrones (first Cersei, then Littlefinger).  I expect that, before the end of the series, she will at least attempt to take her fate into her own hands, and I imagine that this will take place as Sansa's emergence as a player in her own right, just like others here presumably do.  Without knowing it, she has been preparing for this througout the series.  By observing and growing to understand the actions of her captors, she has been training for the game, and some of Littlefinger's statements in Feast suggest that he intends to accelerate this process.

Now, Martin has gone out of his way, on many occasions, to tell us that Sansa is beautiful.  And our experience tells us that this can be an asset, in the Game of Thrones.  Moreover, Sansa has been through several traumatic near-sexual experiences, and this, combined with the generally traumatic nature of her life since that day at Baelor's, suggests to me that she may end up very emotionally detached, both in general, and from her sex drive, specifically.  In light of this, I would not be surprised that Sansa's emergence as a player may involve a Cersei-esque willingness to use sex as tool.

I would like to clarify that I would not view this as a moral failing, on her part.  In fact, when I say Cersei 2.0, I mean it literally - as in, a better version of Cersei.  Both morally, and practically (as in, a better player of the Game).

In ACOK, Cersei tells Sansa:

Quote

"You little fool. Tears are not a woman's only weapon. You've got another one between your legs and you'd best learn to use it. You'll find men use their swords freely enough. Both kinds of swords."

Later on, in ASOS, Littlefinger tells Sansa about Cersei:

Quote

"... Everyman's a piece to start with, and every maid as well. Even some who think they are players... Cersei for one. She thinks herself sly, but in truth she is utterly predictable. Her strength rests on her beauty, birth and riches. Only the first two of those is truly her own, and it will soon desert her. I pity her then. She wants power, but has no notion to do what to do with it when she gets it. Everyone wants something, Alayne. And when you know what a man wants you know who he is, and how to move him."

The first piece of advice that Sansa receives from Cersei is all about using her sexuality - specifically as it relates to the act of sex - in order to manipulate men. It's what Cersei imagines a woman's most potent weapon to be, much more effective than the "weaker" resort to tears and cries for mercy. Littlefinger's advice to Sansa by contrast, does not stress using beauty or sex, but rather deciphering what it is that truly motivates someone, an act that calls for intelligent reasoning and a reliance on talents that go beyond the bedroom.

I think that the second piece of advice is obviously a lot more empowering, and given the trajectory of Sansa's arc, having to hide her noble birth, with Winterfell fallen and posing as a bastard, she's been forced into drawing on other strengths which women like Cersei simply neglect to foster. This is not to say that Cersei's advice wasn't relevant, as Lummel noted LF now wants Sansa to seduce Harry the Heir and get him to fall in love with her, but relying on sex to save you and as a game playing strategy is ultimately short-sighted.

Your point about her becoming detached from her sexuality is also intriguing. Based on her final chapter in AFFC, I would say that she associates genuine, romantic love with her old identity of Sansa Stark, whereas Alayne Stone is a lot more shrewd and artful in dealing with men. It will be really interesting to see just how far she is able to go in keeping up this performance, and how successful she will be at it. All in all though, I think Sansa has learnt that mere beauty and charm will not guarantee power or autonomy. What's important is not that you have so much as how you use it.

[LordBloodraven]

Sansa is being set up as a powerful player of the game of thrones but I wonder if this game is not coming to an end with Winter, Dragons and White Walkers. Maybe she'll make the decisive stroke but what I'm most interested in is her relationship with her brothers and sisters. I feel like they've all taken very different paths while treasuring their moments together at Winterfell, which still continue to define their identity. The more I think about it, the more awkward it seems to me.

[Lummel]

Isn't a sexual awakening going to be too dangerous for Sansa for her to actively engage with it?  Afterall she is undercover as Alayne, but is still married and mindful of her claim or stake in Winterfell.

If recent experiences, such as her Aunt - blindly in love - being pushed out of the Eyrie isn't enough to make her careful of her own feelings then aren't the attentions of Littlefinger going to be off putting?

Although admittedly she does think of the childishness and clumsiness of her cousins attentions which implies a certain degree of interest in kisses and cuddles that are both maturer and assured,  I don't see her at the Gates of the Moon being able to feel safe enough to let her hair down.

Again depending on how the situation in the Vale develops her mind may well end up on other things.  I wouldn't have thought that there is time in the story for something similar to the Dany storyline with its self discovery and rebirth.

[brashcandy]

Lummel, on 22 May 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Isn't a sexual awakening going to be too dangerous for Sansa for her to actively engage with it?  Afterall she is undercover as Alayne, but is still married and mindful of her claim or stake in Winterfell.

Like everything to do with Sansa's arc, I think it will be subtle. But this is where her dual identification might become really relevant. Alayne Stone is going to be the bolder persona, engaging in certain acts and experiences that might have scandalised the younger Sansa Stark. Alayne is older, afterall So whilst Alayne is allowed freedom to explore this sexual awakening, Sansa obviously doesn't escape unaffected.

Quote

Again depending on how the situation in the Vale develops her mind may well end up on other things.  I wouldn't have thought that there is time in the story for something similar to the Dany storyline with its self discovery and rebirth.

I think this process has already started for Sansa, though. Posing as Alayne Stone might give her the scope to engage with her sexuality in more functional ways than Sansa would have been given.

Edited by brashcandy, 22 May 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[Lummel]

Functional?  A very particular choice of word there!

[brashcandy]

Lummel, on 22 May 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Functional?  A very particular choice of word there!

Haha! Indeed.

[Grail King]

brashcandy, on 22 May 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Like everything to do with Sansa's arc, I think it will be really subtle. But this is where her dual identification might become really relevant. Alayne Stone is going to be the bolder persona, engaging in certain acts and experiences that might have scandalised the younger Sansa Stark. Alayne is older, afterall So whilst Alayne is allowed freedom to explore this sexual awakening, Sansa obviously doesn't escape unaffected. I think this process has already started for Sansa, though. Posing as Alayne Stone might give her the scope to engage with her sexuality in more functional ways than Sansa would have been given.

Damn you describing Shae or Ros here?

Doesn't sound right.

Seduction is a part of her arsenal she needs to learn to project, hopefully less physically then Cersei or Shae.

[Queen Cersei I]

brashcandy, on 22 May 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

In ACOK, Cersei tells Sansa: Later on, in ASOS, Littlefinger tells Sansa about Cersei: The first piece of advice that Sansa receives from Cersei is all about using her sexuality - specifically as it relates to the act of sex - in order to manipulate men. It's what Cersei imagines a woman's most potent weapon to be, much more effective than the "weaker" resort to tears and cries for mercy. Littlefinger's advice to Sansa by contrast, does not stress using beauty or sex, but rather deciphering what it is that truly motivates someone, an act that calls for intelligent reasoning and a reliance on talents that go beyond the bedroom. I think that the second piece of advice is obviously a lot more empowering, and given the trajectory of Sansa's arc, having to hide her noble birth, with Winterfell fallen and posing as a bastard, she's been forced into drawing on other strengths which women like Cersei simply neglect to foster.  

Interestingly, though, LF is every bit as willing to use sex to get ahead as Cersei. He sleeps with Lysa though he is disgusted by her simply to get what he wants-- power and property.

Tumnas the Torpid, on 22 May 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Sorry, I stepped out for a moment.  What I mean is that, Sansa has now spent most of the series in the power of players of the Game of Thrones (first Cersei, then Littlefinger).  

Oh, that makes sense. Sorry to jump on you. My reaction was a little harsh regardless, but I have heard numerous arguments implying quite strongly (or, occasionally, even outright stating) that Sansa is unworthy/ shallow/ insipid because she has some interests society regards as typically feminine. A few time people even criticized her for being a pretty girl...for some reason.

brashcandy, on 22 May 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

Fascinating post, QC. It's late and I must sleep, but welcome back to the thread!

Thanks!

[Lykos]

Grail King, on 22 May 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

<snip>Seduction is a part of her arsenal she needs to learn to project, hopefully less physically then Cersei or Shae.

And it´s much more effective if you keep it a promise out of reach, I think.

Also I think Sansa´s becoming a selfaware grownup woman doesn´t depend on her acting out her sexuality, though it could help.  Though I don´t see a good chance of this without dangerous consequences, even for Alayne.  She might profit from the experience of Myranda Royce and Mya Stone and I mean in general.

[Pj Fallon]

Wow Queen Cersei that post will change how I read the sex bits in these books.

I never really put any thought into what the characters were doing I always just presumed the graphic sex in these novels was there to try and arouse the reader. Much like the sex scene in every James bond movie.

The best example is in the TV series GOT Osha has sex with Theon. there is no reason for it he was already in his room and not exactly watching the boys at the time. Its my opinion that that scene was designed just to show us some boobies.

[Grail King]

Pj Fallon, on 22 May 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Wow Queen Cersei that post will change how I read the sex bits in these books. I never really put any thought into what the characters were doing I always just presumed the graphic sex in these novels was there to try and arouse the reader. Much like the sex scene in every James bond movie. The best example is in the TV series GOT Osha has sex with Theon. there is no reason for it he was already in his room and not exactly watching the boys at the time. Its my opinion that that scene was designed just to show us some boobies.

Well the sex in the Bond movies are more arousal because they don't go graphic, as for the Osha scene that to me was spot on, she tired him out and killed the guard to get the kids to safety, Ros and the boat girl wasn't really needed.

[brashcandy]

Grail King, on 22 May 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Damn you describing Shae or Ros here?

Doesn't sound right.

Seduction is a part of her arsenal she needs to learn to project, hopefully less physically then Cersei or Shae.

No, my intention was not to suggest that Sansa will begin to prostitute herself. As a highborn maiden, Sansa would have been thought that sex is strictly for the marriage bed, to "grin and bear it" or as she remembers Septa Mordane telling her: find something/anything appealing about her husband. Useful advice perhaps, but strictly related to women's subservient roles in society. Her virginity also became a bargaining chip tied to her claim to Winterfell, plus she had overly romanticised, unrealistic notions about men and women. As Randa Royce tells her:

Quote

He's a man. He dreams of her naked.

By pretending to be a bastard girl now, Sansa is getting exposed to a lot more knowledge about sex and female sexuality than she would have been given otherwise (credit to Cersei for exposing her to some of the hard truths as well). It's a lot more focused on the woman having some say with regards to her body and her right to seek pleasure from the act. Obviously, being a bastard girl means that men will necessarily assume that she's "hotblooded" and lusty, as Marillion did, so the dangers for being exploited are still there. This is why she's going to have to be very careful if she's going to use this as a game strategy.

Edited by brashcandy, 22 May 2012 - 11:42 AM.

[Lykos]

Brashcandy, ah now I understand.

[Grail King]

Sansa needs the Joy of Sex book to read  

[Istari]

I think that Sansa will begin to separate Alayne from Sansa to an unwanted extreme - that is to say, she will create two distinct identities and eventually they will become so different from each other that Sansa will have a hard time deciding who she really is, and who she wants to be

I'm not suggesting that she will become some sort of schizophrenic or anything like that, I just mean that she - like many teenage girls - will experience an identity crisis of sorts that leads her to reconsider whether or not she wants to 'go back to being Sansa' (and everything Sansa was/represented) or 'stay being Alayne' (the confident/free/older/wiser version of herself)

Edited by istari, 22 May 2012 - 12:16 PM.