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[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion Mk. II


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#201 Catherine Storm

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 12:00 AM

I think they'll 'whitewash' The Mountain a bit and leave out the most part of his raping and killings... Yes it's HBO, but there is some crazy violence in the novels I don't think they'll even attempt to show.

#202 GreenDream

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 01:41 AM

The show makes it pretty clear that Tywin is not fooled by her disguise. While I could accept that he doesn't learn that Arya's missing(Sending such a message per raven could be dangerous if it is interrupted, so they would only send a raven if they deem it necessary).

However, it makes no sense that Tywin would not try to find out which family she is from. Even if she was "just" a Karstark, Umber, or whatever, it could potentially lead to Robb losing up to a few thousand soldiers.

On top of that, there aren't exactly many highborn northern girls running around in the south, so just that should make Tywin very suspicious...


no one has told Tywin that Arya is missing. Like many have explained before me, Cersei, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Varys, Purcel etc. are still trying to find her in Kingslanding, they don't want to have Tywin mad at them, so they haven't told him yet.

And I guess you weren't paying attention to the dialogue between Arya and Tywin. Let me sum it up for you. Arya's story so far: She is the daughter of a stonemason who taught her to read. Her mother worked for Lady Dustin for many years and taught her how to talk properly. She is not high born, but somewhat educated. She is from Barrowton.

This might make her seem a bit unusual, but Tywin believes most/all of it. He has asked questions... he did ask where she was from. All of her answers were satisfactory. She knows how to read, and she talks well, other than that she does not look like nor behave like a high born lady.

#203 Arbor Gold I'm Sold

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 02:11 AM

I think I would go a little further than a bit unusual. My impression was that her being well read and her speech make her seem highborn(not too mention she is well fed). Not only that but unique for most all the highborn in the North. I know it sounds like I'm bagging on the north but my impression was that only two or three Houses in the north would feature people of such education even at the top. I don't think ravens would be used to send message of Arya to Tywin,agreed. He would have messengers on horseback traveling constantly between Harranhal and KL though. Wouldn't you think he would ask about the two prized prisoners and what they were up to and what condition they were in?

Edited by Arbor Gold I'm Sold, 27 May 2012 - 02:16 AM.


#204 insertname

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 04:58 AM

@greendream: Did you even read what I wrote? I have acknowledged Tywin doesn't know Arya is missing.

And while Arya has a nice story, the dialogue between them, and Tywin's expressions, make it clear that he doesn't buy it.

Edited by insertname, 27 May 2012 - 04:58 AM.


#205 DurararaFTW

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 05:01 AM

I think I would go a little further than a bit unusual. My impression was that her being well read and her speech make her seem highborn(not too mention she is well fed). Not only that but unique for most all the highborn in the North. I know it sounds like I'm bagging on the north but my impression was that only two or three Houses in the north would feature people of such education even at the top.


I definitely don't think this is accurate. You don't think the Cerwyns, or the Dustins, the Manderlies, the Reeds or the Grovers and the others know how to read or speak properly? And she's a summerchild, being well-fed ain't such a stretch.

I don't think ravens would be used to send message of Arya to Tywin,agreed. He would have messengers on horseback traveling constantly between Harranhal and KL though. Wouldn't you think he would ask about the two prized prisoners and what they were up to and what condition they were in?


The point is that Cersei is actively keeping the truth from him, hence why Tyrion only found out when he reached King's Landing.

#206 GreenDream

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 02:08 PM

@greendream: Did you even read what I wrote? I have acknowledged Tywin doesn't know Arya is missing.

And while Arya has a nice story, the dialogue between them, and Tywin's expressions, make it clear that he doesn't buy it.


Yes, I read what you wrote. You said you could accept it on the fact that sending a raven was too dangerous. I was replying that they wouldn't have told him even if it wasn't dangerous to send a raven.

Even if Tywin has his doubts, he doesn't push the questions. and further, there is no reason for him to believe that she is Arya or any other important girl. She is intriguing, but to him, nonessential. A point he proves when he leaves her as Gregor's cupbearer.

Now, to begin with, I never liked the fact that they put her as Tywin's cup bearer, instead of Bolton. But for that fact, Bolton never realizes who she really is in the books. You would think he would recognize his own Lord's daughter. Going on with this theme, it's not that far a stretch that Tywin doesn't know who she is either.

Early on in watching the television series, I've come to terms that this isn't the book. Things aren't going to be exactly the same. Some I like, some I don't, but I swallow it all for the sake of enjoying the show. If I sit here and nitpick the details, I'm not going to enjoy the show.

#207 GreenDream

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 02:18 PM

I think I would go a little further than a bit unusual. My impression was that her being well read and her speech make her seem highborn(not too mention she is well fed). Not only that but unique for most all the highborn in the North. I know it sounds like I'm bagging on the north but my impression was that only two or three Houses in the north would feature people of such education even at the top. I don't think ravens would be used to send message of Arya to Tywin,agreed. He would have messengers on horseback traveling constantly between Harranhal and KL though. Wouldn't you think he would ask about the two prized prisoners and what they were up to and what condition they were in?


You have no basis on claiming that the northmen aren't well read or well spoken. We haven't had many encounters with northmen to gauge how well educated they are. All large houses have maesters, therefor, they would be taught the same as their southern counterparts. Your claim is just ridiculous. And for her being "well fed" .... well in the show Tywin makes a remark that she is scrawny, and most likely has been underfed all her life, to which she responds that she eats a lot, but is just skinny. This is not evidence that she is highborn or not. You don't have to be highborn to eat. Maybe the peasants in Kingslanding and in the areas that are war- ravaged have recently been going hungry, but there is nothing that says they were starving to begin with.

#208 insertname

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 03:05 PM

Yes, I read what you wrote. You said you could accept it on the fact that sending a raven was too dangerous. I was replying that they wouldn't have told him even if it wasn't dangerous to send a raven.

Even if Tywin has his doubts, he doesn't push the questions. and further, there is no reason for him to believe that she is Arya or any other important girl. She is intriguing, but to him, nonessential. A point he proves when he leaves her as Gregor's cupbearer.

Now, to begin with, I never liked the fact that they put her as Tywin's cup bearer, instead of Bolton. But for that fact, Bolton never realizes who she really is in the books. You would think he would recognize his own Lord's daughter. Going on with this theme, it's not that far a stretch that Tywin doesn't know who she is either.

Early on in watching the television series, I've come to terms that this isn't the book. Things aren't going to be exactly the same. Some I like, some I don't, but I swallow it all for the sake of enjoying the show. If I sit here and nitpick the details, I'm not going to enjoy the show.


Regarding Tywin knowing about Arya: Well, okay, what you wrote just came over as a bit condescending because you mentioned how everyone has already explained a fact that I'm not even argumenting.

And I have no qualms with it only because it's a book deviation. I'm not a purist.

However, I disagree on "there is no reason for him to believe that she is Arya or any other important girl". While there is no direct reason to believe she's arya, there's more than enough to believe she's an important girl. Any highborn northern hostage could potentially mean up to a few thousand soldiers less working for Robb (Depending on how well he can use the girl to his advantage). That's far from not important.

#209 GreenDream

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 03:12 PM

Regarding Tywin knowing about Arya: Well, okay, what you wrote just came over as a bit condescending because you mentioned how everyone has already explained a fact that I'm not even argumenting.

And I have no qualms with it only because it's a book deviation. I'm not a purist.

However, I disagree on "there is no reason for him to believe that she is Arya or any other important girl". While there is no direct reason to believe she's arya, there's more than enough to believe she's an important girl. Any highborn northern hostage could potentially mean up to a few thousand soldiers less working for Robb (Depending on how well he can use the girl to his advantage). That's far from not important.


I wasn't trying to be condescending. I'm sorry about that. I was only trying to give credit to others who were arguing the point before I ever mentioned it.

As to her being an important asset. I beg to differ because if she was indeed so important, I believe the other high houses would have talked about a missing high born girl. If she was some highborn girl it would be unlikely that she would be traveling during war time, and if so, it would have been known who she was by the people that were protecting her when captured. Some raggedy girl posing as a boy traveling with strangers doesn't come across as some lady that is important.

#210 Arbor Gold I'm Sold

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 03:47 PM

I think there is a big difference between being able to read and being well read. I would say the same with eating alot and starving. No one said anything about that a stonemasons daughter in Barrowtown would be starving but eating alot is a different matter.

#211 Arbor Gold I'm Sold

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 04:13 PM

The point is that Cersei is actively keeping the truth from him, hence why Tyrion only found out when he reached King's Landing.

I have no problem with the secret being kept while the Lannisters are battling Robbs men initially. Seems completely plausible to me that for a short time this secret could be kept and that it was news to Tyrion when he arrives. Then time goes by. Sure I understand that the small council would want to keep this hush since it could mean their heads. For one I think rumors from the capital would always be spreading so I assume the common folk have heard some about what has transpired between Joffrey and Sansa. I'm just putting myself in Tywin's shoes. Sansa and Arya are their most valuable hostages so I would think he would care about them. If Tywin was to show up at the battle at KL. That would mean Harranhal is not so far from KL. Which in turn would leave me to believe he would have his own messengers going back and forth. If you consider that a lone messenger or small band of cavalry would be able to ride at twice the pace of the whole army(at the least). How could Cersei manipulate what they saw and reported? So going back to pages ago to the original point Tywin is an idiot. I think it would be more possible for this secret to be kept from some of the other high houses just not Tywin. She clearly is an important asset just ask the King in the North or Catelyn.

#212 Ghost714

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 05:18 PM

I have no problem with the secret being kept while the Lannisters are battling Robbs men initially. Seems completely plausible to me that for a short time this secret could be kept and that it was news to Tyrion when he arrives. Then time goes by. Sure I understand that the small council would want to keep this hush since it could mean their heads. For one I think rumors from the capital would always be spreading so I assume the common folk have heard some about what has transpired between Joffrey and Sansa. I'm just putting myself in Tywin's shoes. Sansa and Arya are their most valuable hostages so I would think he would care about them. If Tywin was to show up at the battle at KL. That would mean Harranhal is not so far from KL. Which in turn would leave me to believe he would have his own messengers going back and forth. If you consider that a lone messenger or small band of cavalry would be able to ride at twice the pace of the whole army(at the least). How could Cersei manipulate what they saw and reported? So going back to pages ago to the original point Tywin is an idiot. I think it would be more possible for this secret to be kept from some of the other high houses just not Tywin. She clearly is an important asset just ask the King in the North or Catelyn.


What are you talking about?

I highly doubt Tywin is constantly sending messengers by horseback to King's Landing. Cersei is always wondering where Tywin is, whay he is doing, and why he isn't in King's Landing yet. That to me, suggests there is not a lot of communication between them, and all Tyrion ever says is, "he's off fighting the war your son started"(basically).

However, even if Tywin was sending fifty riders a day like you seem to think, do you honestly think that they would be searching the entire Red Keep? All Cersei would need to say is, that Arya is locked up somewhere, because she won't stop trying to fight and escape, and that's it. Nobody is going to question the Queen Regent, they have no reason to think she is not telling them the truth.

So Tywin is not stupid, it makes sense that he doesn't know his cupbearer was Arya, or any other Highborn Northern girl. You seem to think its so obvious to him that she is Highborn, but it's not. Arya's answers to his questions were very good, and a Highborn girl would not have been captured the way she was. Everyone would think that if she is Highborn, then she would tell someone, that way she is not treated like lowborn street scum. That's why it's so clever of Arya to not tell anyone who she is. In the books, she was treated badly by Wease at Harrenhall, most people would not pretend to be lowborn in a situation like that, because the lowborn are treated like shit.

So when you add all these things together, Tywin is not an idiot for not knowing who she is. You seem to think that Tywin would be more curious just because "there might be a chance she his Highborn, and a Highborn girl hostage could potentionally cost Robb a few thousand soldiers". That makes no sense at all, there are thousands of Highborn captives on both sides, and that does not stop anybody from fighting. Cersei says she has both Arya and Sansa, yet Robb continues to fight. In the books, there's a hundred Northern prisoners in Harrenhall when Arya breaks them out, yet the war went on when they were captured.

So even if Tywin thought there was a chance Arya was Highborn, he would not torture her for days to find out, "just so one of Robb's Bannermen will stop fighting"...because most likely they would not stop fighting. When both sides have captives, Tywin can't say "quit fighting for Robb or I'll kill your daughter", because then Robb's side would kill some of their captives. Not to mention, Tywin's son is a freaking captive.

Seriously, when you really think about it, it makes sense.

#213 Arbor Gold I'm Sold

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 06:56 PM

Ghost I liked your post even though I totally disagree with you. It seems your are combining my thoughts with others though. Tywin thinks of himself as ruling Westeros. Can we agree on that?

#214 Ghost714

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 07:47 PM

Ghost I liked your post even though I totally disagree with you. It seems your are combining my thoughts with others though. Tywin thinks of himself as ruling Westeros. Can we agree on that?


At this current point I wouldn't say he thinks that, at this point he is just at war, and taking care of his grandson's mess, that's why he sent Tyrion to King's Landing. Tyrion asked Tywin why he was sending him to King's Landing, and Tywin said "to rule", so I don't think Tywin thinks he is constantly ruling all of Westeros right now, and especially not when Robert was alive.

I would think that the only time Tywin thinks he is ruling Westeros, is when he actually was Hand of the King, before Roberts Rebellion, and when he is Hand again, after the Battle of the Blackwater. However, wether or not Tywin think that, I am not sure what it has to do with this argument?

I am glad you liked my post though, although I would like to know what parts you don't agree with and why you don't agree with them, and I am sorry if I confused part of what you said, with something someone else said.

#215 lostinwesteros

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:32 PM

@ Ghost 714

THANKS! Now I remember, and have been able to let my friend at work know. I appreciate it.


#216 Arbor Gold I'm Sold

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 03:44 AM

I think my thinking has been well documented and yours as well so I will have to leave it at that since I feel like we are going in circles(concerning Arya). The one part I hadn't touched on yet was Tywin's rule. By telling Tyrion to go to KL "to rule" basically until Tywin can be back in KL doesn't that make him the ruler, in his mind anyway. If everyone in the seat of power bends to your will that makes you the ruler, does it not. So he is the ruler he is just busy right now. If Tywin sent orders to KL would they obey? Do you think Tywin feels like he can send orders to KL?

Edited by Arbor Gold I'm Sold, 28 May 2012 - 03:58 AM.


#217 Rickon is FIERCE

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 09:22 AM

The only real mistakes season 2 made in terms of storyline were probably Jaime's totally out-of-character cousin-head-smashing and Talisa being from Volantis. The Red Wedding was planned with consultation/sharing of knowledge with the Westerlings, remember? Talisa needs to be a Westerling.


/agree.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':agree:' />

He doesn't even act as a father to his own kids.


Cersei won't let him for fear of tipping people off about the incest. Later in the books, when he finally begins to come out of his disillusionment over her, he does start to try to reach out to Tommen a little.

See you don't think Arya's answers were convincing enough, but I though they were very clever, clever enough to fool Tywin. Especially because he. does. not. know. Arya. is. missing.

Nobody ever told him. When Tyrion got to KL it was a shock to him, and he never told Tywin, because he wanted to try and find her first, and of he can't, then he can always put the blame on Cersei for letting her get away. That's why it makes sense he didn't think she was Arya, because in Tywin's mind, he would think that of she was missing, somebody would tell him. It's a perfect storm really, for why he does not know it was here. Again, her answers were also very convincing in my opinion.


Her answers would be clever enough to fool some, perhaps most, but not Tywin. This is the point of that "did anyone ever tell you you're too smart for your own good" line....it doesn't make sense unless Tywin knows she's lying. If she's just telling him the truth, what's so savvy and smart about that?

Tyrion is lauded for it, Catelyn is despised.


This is a good observation; if you are referencing reader/viewer reactions, people's perceptions are skewed by the fact that most like the Starks and want them home, so they like Tyrion for being willing to give them up, but they hate the Lannisters, Jaime in particular, so they want him to pay at all costs rather than be given his freedom. But I also think many people, myself included, saw Jaime as a far more valuable hostage than the girls, whether or not he is, in fact, an albatross, as some have said. I despised Cat because it seemed to me that all she had done by freeing Jaime was traded the death/imprisonment of one child (Robb) for the hope of life/freedom of two others (the girls)...to me the war was over once Jaime was free. Does one man make or break the war effort? Not necessarily...I'll use everybody's catch-phrase of the butterfly effect....on morale for both armies, on bargaining positions, on Robb's perceived strength as a king... just the way I saw it.

Why would Tywin leave a child with the Mountain? Guess he forgot what happened last time he did that. /dunno.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':dunno:' />


Not at all. More like he didn't care what he did with her. Which is, IMO, one of the only things about the whole Arya/Tywin plot that actually rings true of him.

#218 Rickon is FIERCE

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 11:01 AM

no one has told Tywin that Arya is missing. Like many have explained before me, Cersei, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Varys, Purcel etc. are still trying to find her in Kingslanding, they don't want to have Tywin mad at them, so they haven't told him yet.


Not sure Tyrion wouldn't have told him. Perhaps not, but I can't see why he wouldn't, other than to try and prove his worth by finding her himself and carrying out damage control on his own. Up in the air I suppose but he does mention a few episodes back at the beginning of the street scene where the dude calls him a demon monkey that although he's been sending communications to Tywin he's not heard any responses. So he is keeping Tywin abreast of the situation in KL, pure conjecture about what he's leaving in or leaving out.

You have no basis on claiming that the northmen aren't well read or well spoken.


Aren't there a few references to the Umbers' illiteracy? Can't remember if that's book only or both.

So Tywin is not stupid, it makes sense that he doesn't know his cupbearer was Arya, or any other Highborn Northern girl. You seem to think its so obvious to him that she is Highborn, but it's not. Arya's answers to his questions were very good, and a Highborn girl would not have been captured the way she was. Everyone would think that if she is Highborn, then she would tell someone, that way she is not treated like lowborn street scum. That's why it's so clever of Arya to not tell anyone who she is. In the books, she was treated badly by Wease at Harrenhall, most people would not pretend to be lowborn in a situation like that, because the lowborn are treated like shit.


I have to disagree on this. It was obvious to him that she's highborn, hence the "m'lord" discussion. As I said earlier, her answers didn't fool him, hence the "too smart for your own good" comment. Of course she would masquerade as lowborn and unimportant if what she wants- wisely- is to avoid attention. Hell masquerading (as a boy) is what she was doing when he first found her at Harrenhal, so it's not exactly out of character for her from what he knows of her. And he figures out she's a Northerner on his own- he asks and she confirms. So yes, he can figure that out.

"Most people" might not want to act lowborn, but most people also wouldn't act as if they were boy recruits for the Night's Watch, either, who aren't treated very well, themselves...which, by the way, is yet another clue to her being a Northerner trying to get back, though admittedly very subtle.

#219 PetyrPunkinhead

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:33 AM

I'm re-watching S2 on Blu-Ray and thought I'd comment on each episode w/ their respective special features as I go. Yes, I know there's a general S2 blu-ray thread, but it's a long and unwieldy beast. I'm wondering what people think about each episode after a second viewing and w/ the added bonus of the commentaries, histories, maps, etc.

Again, no new histories. This is disappointing as we could really use one on Valantis especially given the scene near the end of the episode between the King in the North and Talise. The audio commentary w/ the actors that play Jaime Lannister and Catelyn Stark is very entertaining; they're both really funny. They also apparently had a read through with the first six episodes of S3 the day before they did the commentary and in the course of the commentary let loose more than a few near spoilers. If you've wandered into this thread and have not read book 3 yet, I suggest skipping this audio commentary until you've done so.