[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion Mk. II
Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:05 PM
Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:15 PM
I interpreted that as bait for Arya's reaction, but I guess it works for Tywin, too...
Like this a lot.
A very good thought, and I do believe you're right.
I think Loras as Renly is highly likely and I think it would be a good change. Don't think it's dramatic enough for the end shot, though. I sort of assumed it'd be Bran and Rickon out of the crypts revealing they were alive but now that that's shot, I'm thinking homage to last season the dragon(s) burning down the House of the Undying...though it wouldn't really finish off Dany's plotline from Clash.
True, we don't exactly know that there isn't a Robb Stark heir, but we do know about Jeyne's mother getting in the way of that. Not impossible, of course, for GRRM to throw us a curveball later; one might even say it is likely, considering Jeyne just sort of disappeared and nothing much has been said about her. Discarded b/c she was merely a plot device or saved up and waiting in the wings with a little understudy in her belly...who can say? Look what happened when LF disappeared for awhile....
Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:20 PM
I think we'll see this come up again at a later date. One thing it does show you now is that LF is clearly not on the Lannisters' side, since he didn't say anything to Tywin.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:29 PM
However, if Talisa is Jayne Westerling, we then have to spend time introducing us all to her family, which means more actors, more plot, more time with Robb and draws us away from the other major players. In other words, more time an effort that would all be saved if Robb just marries this Volanese woman he has loved for so long. Same betrayal, same outcomes, BUT more economical as the writers have already completed that investment in the story and WOULD NOT have to reinvest in it in the third season.
I don't think it's quite the same, if we take as given the arguments of economy/budget/simplicity and leave the rest, I still think it blows that Tywin will only be in cahoots with the Freys in bringing about the RW. The Westerling subplot was a brilliant, cold and calculating bit of Tywinesque strategizing and opportunism, nicely echoing his lifting of the siege in KL during Robert's rebellion, and it would have been nice to have that side of things included. Especially considering the whole grandfatherly rapport with Arya this season, I think he's not quite coming off as the powerful, unstoppable monster he is in the books, and the viewers may find it hard to gel with Tyrion taking him out later. I know we've heard the Tysha story, but we've seen the Arya interactions, so it's up for debate how non-readers will interpret him. I agree with the earlier post about his casually dumping Arya on the Mountain as a good view of cold-hearted Tywin, but that again, is partially due to the fact that those of us who've read the books have reason to fear and loathe the Mountain much more than the TV audience, who've only seen him slaughter a horse and heard the story of what he did to little bro as a kid.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:30 PM
LF is only on one person's side, ever and always.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:33 PM
We do lose that subplot but it was only relevant in one scene in AFFC.
Edited by Ser Hippie, 22 May 2012 - 03:39 PM.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:47 PM
Since prev. thread is locked I can't quote you, but I think it's personal interpretation re: whether the Halfhand was "captured" or no. It just reads tougher to me to have him die- sacrificially to boot- before anyone could technically take him into custody. I respect him more. It echoes something of the grit in the old Hollywood westerns. Also lines up well with Ygritte's answer to his question in the prev. episode, which is why I find it bizarre that he now shows up a prisoner. Don't really know what the point of having her say that was.
Ahh, i see you now, gotcha. I agree it conflicts with Ygritte, but she doesn't speak for all Wildlings. (Likely it was sloppy writing)
Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:50 PM
Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:00 PM
It's pretty easy to explain, really, even ignoring the possibility Ygritte was wrong. She says that if they were feeling merciful they'd kill the Halfhand quickly, if not (trails off). Rattleshirt specifically mentions they're going to find out what Halfhand knows, which presumably doesn't involve pleasant treatment - the "or else" implied in Ygritte's statement.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:00 PM
I'll actually be annoyed if they have the chain at Blackwater since there has been no mention of it by Tyrion, only the wyldfire which is more than enough to defeat Stannis
was Tywin really heading to fight Robb? Thought he was supposed to show up at Blackwater, confused...
Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:03 PM
Obviously anything that reveals the brilliance of Tywin is always good in my book. Unfortunately, its details that this story cannot (literally) afford to elaborate on. I completely agree that in the books, the Westerlings were being used (willingly) by Tywin to trap Robb and that plan worked brilliantly. Well, that level of Machiavellian cunning cannot be properly translated in this show. So, we have to settle for the next best thing which is Tywin working with the Freys to take down Robb. Not as fulfilling, but not empty either.
Ah... no... I agree that they probably had no idea that there would be a grand execution that evening, but Lady Spicer can protest all seh wants- she knew that she was serving Robb to Frey by way of Tywin. How do we know this? Well, duh- just like Deep Throat said years ago- follow the money:
“This grants Ser Rolph Spicer title to the castle Castamere and raises him to the rank of lord.” Tommen scrawled his name. .. This is your royal pardon for Lord Gawen Westerling, his lady wife, and his daughter Jeyne, welcoming them back into the king’s peace,”
Martin, George R.R. (2003-03-04). A Storm of Swords: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Three (p. 819). Bantam. Kindle Edition.
Obviously, these people do not get these huge benefits and titles etc simply because they wrote Tywin nicely. The Westerlings knew (or more aptly "should have known") that their actions were going to lead Robb to his doom. Maybe not at the RW, maybe not in the manner described, but as soon as Sybil Spicer put quill to parchment, Robb Stark was as good as dead. Tywin orchestrated it all after that, but what did Sybil think Tywin was going to do? Declare Robb Stark a royal "Liar Liar Pants Be-Ith On Fire?"
The Westerlings want all the benefit of Robb's destruction (they took the pardons and titles, I assume), but none of the blame. Well... too bad. Its sort of like saying "Hey, didn't kill the guy.... I just painted the huge bull's eye on the guy and then called the guy with the gun and told him where to point."
Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:14 PM
I certainly don't agree with
The RW was Frey's idea; he goes to Tywin for (lack of a better term) "moral support". Similarly, it's Bolton's idea to betray Robb, Tywin's role is to hammer out the details. Robb is dead for many reasons, but Sybelle and Rolph are extremely minor players at best.
Rolph and Sybelle are definitely opportunists and (to most readers) villains, but they're not really that important in general outside of removing the possibility of Robb having an heir. The Frey, Bolton and Karstark betrayals are a lot more serious and relevant to "painting a bull's eye" on Robb.
Sybelle and Rolph betray Robb to cover their own asses - well Sybelle to protect her family too (the pardons)- and make a small profit (Castamere is famous but also a ruin the Westerlings can't afford). Sybelle, at least, certainly wouldn't have sent Raynald along if she had actually understood what the plan was. From Tywin's PoV there's absolutely no need to involve either of Sybelle or Rolph in his plot as they're not necessary to it.
Edited by Ser Hippie, 22 May 2012 - 04:36 PM.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:20 PM
Yep, its explainable in several ways, though I think the most likely case is the writers didn't even consider it. It doesn't really matter, IMO. Similar to Catelyn not knowing that Cersei had a son who died last season. You can come up with explanations, but the simplest one is sloppy writing.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 05:25 PM
Yes, but LF could get something from the Lannisters with this knowledge. The fact that he doesn't try to get anything out of it shows that he is already planning against them and not going to be around to reap any rewards from them.
On the other hand he's actually putting Arya in danger by not telling him. If Tywin doesn't know who she is then she can be discarded, as we saw. If he still thinks he can win Cat over then you'd think he'd be angling to get Arya himself. So I think he's perhaps given up on Cat at this point and set his sights on Sansa already.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 05:34 PM
No, you're missing the context of how Ygritte says they would just kill Qhorin.
Robb wants to take Ygritte prisoner rather than kill her. He offers up the idea that they could question her as justification. Qhorin responds to this by asking her a couple of questions, to which Ygritte says nothing. Qhorin then asks her what they would do with him if they got hold of him. Ygritte quickly responds they'd either kill him quickly or kill him slowly, depending on what sort of mood they were in.
So what exactly is the motivation for Ygritte to either lie about this or speak on behalf of other free folk over which she has no authority, when this answer is confirmation of Qhorin's side of the argument that they should just kill her on the spot? This scene only makes sense if Ygritte is just speaking an obvious truth that there is no point in denying. Except that it isn't true.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 05:58 PM
First of all, Ygritte actually does answer two of his questions (revealing the Wildlings are massed there in great numbers). After she then refuses to answer a couple more questions, Qhorin asks if the wildlings would take him prisoner.
Ygritte doesn't say yes or no directly, she just gives the line about taking his head off if they were feeling kind and kill him slow otherwise. How does "take him prisoner, torture him for information, then kill him (presumably painfully)" not fit until the killing him slow?
I don't see why taking Qhorin prisoner makes people think they were going to be merciful, I'm pretty sure they were going to grind whatever information they could out of him, then brutally kill him. Thinking Ygritte meant literally "they'll kill you quickly right that instant" or "they'll slowly kill you immediately after that instant" is too reading that scene too literally.
Edited by Ser Hippie, 22 May 2012 - 06:09 PM.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 07:22 PM
Posted 22 May 2012 - 07:37 PM
Mance has no reason to keep Qhorin alive afterwards. HE keeps Jon alive in the books because Jon convinces him that he'd want to actually join the Wildlings, not to be merciful or kind. I don't know why you'd expect Mance to keep Qhorin alive if he made it that far in the show (and he won't, of course, anyway).
Edited by Ser Hippie, 22 May 2012 - 07:42 PM.
Posted 22 May 2012 - 07:38 PM
Posted 22 May 2012 - 08:25 PM