54 replies to this topic

[Dolorous Spread]

Perhaps it is just me, but I am fascinated by the use of language in the book series.  Yet the language is often jarring.  I found the frequent and casual use of "cock" and "cunt" (especially the wonderful War for Cersei's Cunt) to be especially so at first, especially given the elegance of much of the rest of the writing and given the often taboo nature of those words in the real world (which are among the Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television).

For the record I am not offended in the slightest, nor do I normally feel language itself should be cause for offense.

How do others feel about GRRM's approach to language, especially the coarser elements?

[Pellaeon]

In previous times language was much more "rought" then today all these taboos base on later ages

[Payme]

It was for sure different getting used to.. i had just re-read "The Hobbit" and LotR, since i heard they're making the Hobbit into a movie... So i was used to that style before picking up AGoT... it was "wow!" with the language (not in a bad way, just wasn't expecting it)...

It's funny to think about, really... What if LotR was like that?

Frodo first washed off his cock, which still smelled of last night's whore...

Edited by Payme, 22 May 2012 - 03:59 PM.

[Dolorous Spread]

I am a *huge* Tolkien fan, so I had much the same reaction.  Imagine the War for Arwen's Cunt!

[Lan the Clever]

Dolorous Spread, on 22 May 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

I am a *huge* Tolkien fan, so I had much the same reaction. Imagine the War for Arwen's Cunt!

Well, there was that war for Idril's cunt...But that was thousands of years prior to LotR.

[Dolorous Spread]

A Gondolin reference...well played!

[Lyanna Stark]

The language does reflect the grittier nature of ASOIAF vs LOTR.

I also imagine that if you think LOTR is some sort of benchmark for SF/F you haven't read a lot of the grittier modern fantasy publications. Maybe time to take a peek at the "Literature" subforum and find R Scott Bakker, Abercrombie and Richard Morgan, for example.

[Danyl Stark]

Just imagining Sean Bean - "Frodo you fucked-up cunt give me that fucking ring or I'll shove my sword up your bunghole"

[Lan the Clever]

Lyanna Stark, on 22 May 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

The language does reflect the grittier nature of ASOIAF vs LOTR. I also imagine that if you think LOTR is some sort of benchmark for SF/F you haven't read a lot of the grittier modern fantasy publications. Maybe time to take a peek at the "Literature" subforum and find R Scott Bakker, Abercrombie and Richard Morgan, for example.

LotR is a benchmark. There's no doubt as to that. And as to the darker fantasy, Glen Cook was already writing it long before any of the ones you mentioned. Even before Martin.

[Dolorous Spread]

I must have missed out on some of those, although my reading tends to skew toward more of the "classic" fantasy authors...Howard, de Camp, Moorcock, Herbert, Jordan, etc.

Genre aside, I am pleased (and somewhat surprised) that this topic so far has avoided talk of exploitation.  I do *not* consider GRRM to be exploitive, but he does have some interesting...errr...verbal tics.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lan the Clever, on 22 May 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

LotR is a benchmark. There's no doubt as to that. And as to the darker fantasy, Glen Cook was already writing it long before any of the ones you mentioned. Even before Martin.

YMMV, but compared to the newer darker stuff, I don't really rate Glenn Cook. I felt it was more staple just with added grit, while writers like Abercrombie, R Scott Bakker and Mieville add layers of complexity and just don't add some violence and gore. One of the reason ASOIAF is fairly "dark" and gritty is not just because of language or some violence, it's because the entire weave is filled with more real human complexity and how it explores darker themes wtithin the characters' personalities. Like for instance Tyrion's arc in ADWD, or Theon's. Those really look at even the dregs of the human consciousness and what comes up are not pretty things.

[Jem]

For interest's sake, what are the rest of the seven words you can't say on TV?

[Thallus]

My biggest problem is when GRRM purposefully uses anachronisms or apocryphal anachronisms (see nuncle).

This really is one of my largest issues in translations and historical fiction. Authors trying to write in the language that their time period is based on. It sucks, it fails, it makes the language awkward and obscure. If its in English, use English, not what you'd imagine 14th century proto-English to be.

Grrm does some of these sins, but he isn't as bad as some other authors, so while parts stick out and are annoying, it isn't bad on the whole.

[Jem]

Thallus, on 23 May 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

My biggest problem is when GRRM purposefully uses anachronisms or apocryphal anachronisms (see nuncle). This really is one of my largest issues in translations and historical fiction. Authors trying to write in the language that their time period is based on. It sucks, it fails, it makes the language awkward and obscure. If its in English, use English, not what you'd imagine 14th century proto-English to be. Grrm does some of these sins, but he isn't as bad as some other authors, so while parts stick out and are annoying, it isn't bad on the whole.

I don't have a problem with anachronisms, generally speaking, as long as they are not over-used and - more importantly I think - as long as they are used consistently throughout the story.

With 'nuncle' it bothered me because it was just suddenly added in, what was it? the fourth book? If it was used consistently from the first, it would not be as glaring. There was another word which escapes me at the moment (neilo or something I think) that was suddenly thrown in ADWD. Again, if it was used from the beginning it would be OK, but when it suddenly appears out of nowhere you just know that GRRM has found something new (to him) in his research and he's decided to chuck it in.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

Dolorous Spread, on 22 May 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

"cock" and "cunt"

Yeah, well. You trying writing a book seriously. It just sounds dumb if you say penis and vagina, like you're trying to sound polite, but you're talking dirty? And saying dick and pussy is more a teenage thing, not adult. So how else are you going to say it?

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

Dolorous Spread, on 22 May 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

I am a *huge* Tolkien fan, so I had much the same reaction. Imagine the War for Arwen's Cunt!

Wait. Are you actually talking about how the characters are portrayed when they speak in quote marks in the book, or are you commenting on Martin's personal choice to say cock at every possible event just because he feels that word is best suited?

These are two different things. I mean, what was Jaime supposed to say?
"They'll even write songs about us. They'll call it the war for Cersei's feminine parts!"
Seriously?

Or Ser Gregor,
"Please step this way, kind lady, I do wisheth to surprise-sex thee up thy behind quarters!"

Martin wrote it the way he did because that is the way people talk in real life. I thought you were talking about his choice to write it like that even in instances when it was not someone talking. But in cases of the perspective of the character, you'll find he did adapt - I recall Dany chapters, and her "lower lips." So in the case where the chapter was of a polite person, yes, it seems language was up to their perspective.

[Buster]

It always amuses me when people refuse to read, watch, or listen to anything with "bad" language in it. To be honest I don't understand why this is a problem. Words can be insulting when used in an insulting context, but when the words are used in a story, by a character that has reason to use them, it shouldn't be a problem. If I type the word "cunt" here, with no context, it shouldn't be considered offensive. If I used the word to insult one of the people here, then yeah, it makes sense to be offended. (Although I'm not sure why my opinion of someone would matter to anyone here.) You can't create a world like this and make it believable without swearing. It just wouldn't be right.

[Stannis' sense of humour]

Boromir-Bloodstorm, on 23 May 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

Yeah, well. You trying writing a book seriously. It just sounds dumb if you say penis and vagina, like you're trying to sound polite, but you're talking dirty? And saying dick and pussy is more a teenage thing, not adult. So how else are you going to say it?

Fanny and knob

[Jayce]

Jem, on 23 May 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

For interest's sake, what are the rest of the seven words you can't say on TV?

The words are "shit", "piss", "fuck", "cunt", "cocksucker", "motherfucker", and "tits" according to http://en.wikipedia....ven_dirty_words

[Buster]

Jayce, on 23 May 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

The words are "shit", "piss", "fuck", "cunt", "cocksucker", "motherfucker", and "tits" according to http://en.wikipedia....ven_dirty_words

George Carlin