54 replies to this topic

[Blisscraft]

I wish he would use the word "cocksucker."   It would add a little "Deadwood" flavor to the mix.

[Dr. Pepper]

I found the use of language fascinating in the way it made the text so rich.  To me, it was brilliant Martin spent the effort of having certain sayings identify where they are from.  The Ironborn use 'nuncle', people of the Free Cities use 'just so', etc.  The only person besides an Ironborn who says nuncle is Edwyn Frey.  It could have been a genuine error, or it could have meant that maybe he fostered on Pyke or spent time with the Ironborn at some point.

The most jarring use of language was the way characters, Arya especially, talk about decapitation.  "He cut my father's head off."  Or "Take his head off, lop his head off." Something about putting the preposition at the end of the sentence just made the violent act of decapitation seem all the more violent.  It was like I could feel how barbaric is was just by sentence structure alone.

[Lan the Clever]

Blisscraft, on 23 May 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

I wish he would use the word "cocksucker." It would add a little "Deadwood" flavor to the mix.

Oh! How many times Ian McShane would tell that in just one episode. One would lose count.

[Kittykatknits]

The earthy language doesn't really bother me but that could be because I have a tendency to um...use it quite a bit IRL too.
I think I'd fit it more off-putting if Martin started referring to "his throbbing manhood" or "heaving bosoms". That would throw me.

ETA: I've always found the word vagina to be really funny sounding for some reason too. Don't think I could read a book that uses it regularly.

Edited by Kittykatknits, 23 May 2012 - 07:58 AM.

[Dolorous Spread]

Boromir-Bloodstorm, on 23 May 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

Martin wrote it the way he did because that is the way people talk in real life. I thought you were talking about his choice to write it like that even in instances when it was not someone talking. But in cases of the perspective of the character, you'll find he did adapt - I recall Dany chapters, and her "lower lips." So in the case where the chapter was of a polite person, yes, it seems language was up to their perspective.

But is it how people speak in real life?  I've had my member (Har!) referred to as a cock by lady friends, but I would not have been using it had I suggested I put it in her cunt.

That said, the other options (vagina, pussy, etc.) don't exactly inspire authenticity, do they?  Don't most people sort of avoid directly naming the parts?

[Dolorous Spread]

Stannis, on 23 May 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

Fanny and knob

Ye ken fine yer gaggin' fer it, eh?  Dinnae talk pish!  ;-)

[Kittykatknits]

Dolorous Spread, on 23 May 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

That said, the other options (vagina, pussy, etc.) don't exactly inspire authenticity, do they?  Don't most people sort of avoid directly naming the parts?

As in calling them "it", "your thing", or my personal favorite - "down there"? Or just avoiding any mentioning of those parts altogether?

[Teal'c]

Buster, on 23 May 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

George Carlin

The King is dead. Long live the King.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=kgZZ82tp5es

Edited by Teal'c, 23 May 2012 - 10:57 AM.

[Blisscraft]

Lan the Clever, on 23 May 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Oh! How many times Ian McShane would tell that in just one episode. One would lose count.

He said it with such aplomb.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

Dolorous Spread, on 23 May 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

But is it how people speak in real life? I've had my member (Har!) referred to as a cock by lady friends, but I would not have been using it had I suggested I put it in her cunt. That said, the other options (vagina, pussy, etc.) don't exactly inspire authenticity, do they? Don't most people sort of avoid directly naming the parts?

Where are you from? I don't know about British or American, but in Australia and New Zealand, cock and cunt are words so common we even use them in place of friend or awesome or annoying bug
(Example, your friend shows up, "What's up, cunt!" - perfectly normal
Or a bug bites the back of your neck, you slap him and kill him and say, "Gotcha, cunt..."
It might just be where you're raised. But they are really common amongst common people, especially in Australaisa, as I've seen. Of course you don't talk like that in front of your mother. But you do in all other situations. I was in the Army/Infantry too, relevant given some of the most dirty speaking characters are warriors in the book - I can tell you, it's spot on. I'm really surprised if you seriously don't know this.

Edited by Boromir-Bloodstorm, 24 May 2012 - 02:24 AM.

[Errant Bard]

Thallus, on 23 May 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

My biggest problem is when GRRM purposefully uses anachronisms or apocryphal anachronisms (see nuncle).

This really is one of my largest issues in translations and historical fiction. Authors trying to write in the language that their time period is based on. It sucks, it fails, it makes the language awkward and obscure. If its in English, use English, not what you'd imagine 14th century proto-English to be.

About that, I completely disagree. Authors are not putting archaic-looking words in their works to "write in the language that their time period is based on", that would be ludicrous, as it would make the text unreadable; who reads middle English, old French, welsh, norse, old german plus a myriad of dialects, and latin fluently, after all?

Authors put these words in because they evoke that time-period in the minds of their readers. It's not a question of writing anything accurate, it's a question of having something resonate with the reader's culture. Missed with you, but not everyone is acquainted with linguistics, GRRM least of all, so it works.

Ties with the profanity discussion, since the whole idea is to use language to create a scene, and not having characters use words readers will think of as profanity will naturally go against the wish to make the world seem brutal and gritty... The obvious censoring will likely pull out the reader out of suspension of disbelief, reminding him that the swearing guy is just made up by the author.

[ARYa_Nym]

It depends on the delivery. Like I liked these from Arya and my two new favorites Brandon Stark and Gerris:

Quote

"Maybe I never saw a camel," she would tell them, "but I know a camel's cunt when I smell one."

Quote

“I would sell my mother for a bit of breeze,” said Gerris, as they rolled through the dockside throngs. “It’s moist as the Maiden’s cunt, and still shy of noon. I hate this city.”

Quote

“I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman’s cunt,” he used to say.”

It makes the character seem more brazen to me I guess.

I didn't like that Asha was being called one for example but I'm glad she received an apology.

[Castel]

Errant Bard, on 24 May 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

About that, I completely disagree. Authors are not putting archaic-looking words in their works to "write in the language that their time period is based on", that would be ludicrous, as it would make the text unreadable; who reads middle English, old French, welsh, norse, old german plus a myriad of dialects, and latin fluently, after all?

Authors put these words in because they evoke that time-period in the minds of their readers. It's not a question of writing anything accurate, it's a question of having something resonate with the reader's culture. Missed with you, but not everyone is acquainted with linguistics, GRRM least of all, so it works.

Ties with the profanity discussion, since the whole idea is to use language to create a scene, and not having characters use words readers will think of as profanity will naturally go against the wish to make the world seem brutal and gritty... The obvious censoring will likely pull out the reader out of suspension of disbelief, reminding him that the swearing guy is just made up by the author.

This +1,000. I don't think that I would be able to buy the series if it didn't have words like nuncle or Ser, or must needs, and fuck or cunt and etc. There would be a huge dissonance between the actions of the characters and their personalities, if someone can throw a child out of a window, words like cunt aren't going to slow him down. Not using profanity would be more artificial in this case.

As for the other words and phrases, they may be anachronistic, but they evoke that time period to me for some reason, even if some history major is sneering at my ignorance. It's basically the same thing the show is doing with accents, people make fun, but as a culture medieval stories cannot be bought by the majority of the population if people are speaking in New York english. It's just a cultural thing.

Edited by Castel, 24 May 2012 - 04:31 AM.

[Jayce]

Boromir-Bloodstorm, on 24 May 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

Where are you from? I don't know about British or American, but in Australia and New Zealand, cock and cunt are words so common we even use them in place of friend or awesome or annoying bug (Example, your friend shows up, "What's up, cunt!" - perfectly normal Or a bug bites the back of your neck, you slap him and kill him and say, "Gotcha, cunt..." It might just be where you're raised. But they are really common amongst common people, especially in Australaisa, as I've seen. Of course you don't talk like that in front of your mother. But you do in all other situations. I was in the Army/Infantry too, relevant given some of the most dirty speaking characters are warriors in the book - I can tell you, it's spot on. I'm really surprised if you seriously don't know this.

Cunt is not a common word where I used to live (South west UK), in fact it was one of those "must not say, ever" words. That is not to say its not used, heard plenty of people using it, just say 1 in a 1000 or less. One of the people I worked with used to say "See you next Tuesday" (C U Next Tuesday) instead, which always made me laugh.

[Dolorous Spread]

Boromir-Bloodstorm, on 24 May 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

Where are you from? I don't know about British or American, but in Australia and New Zealand, cock and cunt are words so common we even use them in place of friend or awesome or annoying bug (Example, your friend shows up, "What's up, cunt!" - perfectly normal Or a bug bites the back of your neck, you slap him and kill him and say, "Gotcha, cunt..." It might just be where you're raised. But they are really common amongst common people, especially in Australaisa, as I've seen. Of course you don't talk like that in front of your mother. But you do in all other situations. I was in the Army/Infantry too, relevant given some of the most dirty speaking characters are warriors in the book - I can tell you, it's spot on. I'm really surprised if you seriously don't know this.

I'm from the US (and not even one of the conservative areas) and I can assure you that "What's up, cunt?" would not be received well.  It's interesting that Australasia seems to have a different view (although I've never heard the Aussies I know say it).

So thanks for the education, cunt!  ;-)

[Bushido]

I read the sidhe/The Others possibilities and can't stop thinking about "The Others take you!"

The language remembers

[Thallus]

Errant Bard, on 24 May 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

About that, I completely disagree. Authors are not putting archaic-looking words in their works to "write in the language that their time period is based on", that would be ludicrous, as it would make the text unreadable; who reads middle English, old French, welsh, norse, old german plus a myriad of dialects, and latin fluently, after all? Authors put these words in because they evoke that time-period in the minds of their readers. It's not a question of writing anything accurate, it's a question of having something resonate with the reader's culture. Missed with you, but not everyone is acquainted with linguistics,

I think that was a dig at me. It seems you missed the point for your soap box. You can go back to reading Beowolf and have 20 words of explanation for every word of text. I prefer to read in modern English. The author can create mood without resorting to the trick of using outdated language, which costs legibility and the flow of their novel.

Authors use archaic words ALL the time. Translators of historical pieces (frex Dante's Inferno, The Illiad, The Odyssey) and historical fiction buffs are the biggest offenders of this. Martin isn't as bad as others, but the ones he make annoy me. The problem is that most of these people are (and I say this as a good thing) nerds of their studied time period/languages. So they use pieces that were once natural and modern in the language they love looking at. However, for the modern English speaker, who does not focus on proto-modern languages, the anarchronisms serve to befuddle more than they set the mood. I can get that its a civilization older than ours through description better than I can through language lost on the constant drift of modernization.

[Boromir-Bloodstorm]

Jayce, on 24 May 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

Cunt is not a common word where I used to live (South west UK), in fact it was one of those "must not say, ever" words. That is not to say its not used, heard plenty of people using it, just say 1 in a 1000 or less. One of the people I worked with used to say "See you next Tuesday" (C U Next Tuesday) instead, which always made me laugh.

Yeah, it's one of those words you should not say all over the world. I'm just saying, people say it anyway. A lot of Australians/New Zealanders don't say it, but a lot do. Especially in specific circles - such as blue colar workers, football or other sport fans/players, military (esp. Army). These are mostly obviously males, but very large sections of society that have terrible verbal standards.

For me, the langauge usage in ASOIAF did not surprise me at all.

[Howling Mad]

Buster, on 23 May 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

George Carlin

What if life came with 2 minute warning - classic Carlin

[Dreadnaught]

Boromir-Bloodstorm, on 24 May 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

Where are you from? I don't know about British or American, but in Australia and New Zealand, cock and cunt are words so common we even use them in place of friend or awesome or annoying bug
(Example, your friend shows up, "What's up, cunt!" - perfectly normal
Or a bug bites the back of your neck, you slap him and kill him and say, "Gotcha, cunt..."
It might just be where you're raised. But they are really common amongst common people, especially in Australaisa, as I've seen. Of course you don't talk like that in front of your mother. But you do in all other situations. I was in the Army/Infantry too, relevant given some of the most dirty speaking characters are warriors in the book - I can tell you, it's spot on. I'm really surprised if you seriously don't know this.

I'm from New Zealand and most people I know don't go around talking like that.  I think it depends on age and social setting.  I think as a teenager I used to talk like that with my friends, but now It really annoys me I hear people adding in swear words when there is no need.  It just seems trashy and disrespectful when people talk like that in front of you.