22 replies to this topic

[gmoney88]

Would you agree that if this series has a "point", it is this?

I wouldn't have wanted to move to Medieval Europe before reading this, but afterwards, the whole era just seems straight up evil. Westeros is fascinating and full of amazing characters, but damn it is a horrible, horrible place. Considering it's mostly a mish-mash of real history, I've never been so happy to live in the time and place I do.

[Toccs]

I would not agree.  I think that "war is awful" would be the main theme . . .that is if I thought the books had a main theme.

The only real difference between feualism and western style democracy is that we get to elect our lords representatives.

[LuisDantas]

I don't see Song as being all that antipathetic to feudalism, personally.

Antipathetic to politics, however... now that is something else entirely.

I believe there is also a running theme about how weak people go for the short term gain and end up destroyed for that, while honor endures hardships yet breeds true loyalty.  It is a tale of what we plant and what we sew, of how we breed our own destruction by refusing to recognize our responsibilities towards each other.  The degree of authenticity that GRRM gave to the complex interactions among characters, including some that are felt decades after the fact, is eerie.

[Dragon of Valyria]

I am pretty sure it is a story about how you should never revolt against your rightful king, because it only leads to problems in the long run.

[Dragonstar]

Arguably more people died due to warfare in the 20th Century than at any other point in human history. I don't think it's feudalism so much, as the cost of playing power politics. And even that isn't the only theme of the series. Consider also
- familial relationships
- contrast between the powers of light and dark and how both sides are equally dangerous
- betrayal
- how cruel the world can be to the innocent
- the sense of 'honor' and how it can lead to disaster
- the power that sexual politics play
- many other 'central' themes

This is one of the reasons that the series has such a wide and ardent fan base. People see many modern truths and parallels in GRRMs fantasy realm

[salt]

Toccs, on 22 May 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

The only real difference between feualism and western style democracy is that we get to elect our lords representatives.

Yeahhh...that might not be the only difference between modern democracies and medieval feudalism.



I agree with much of whats been posted here.  Another central theme I heard mentioned that rang true to me is the idea that it is simple to conquer, but very hard to rule.

[BondJamesBond]

The pursuit of power or just power irself destroys the individual.  Remember, the iron thron cuts those who sit in it.

[Anvilbreaker]

LuisDantas, on 23 May 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

  It is a tale of what we plant and what we sew

WE DO NOT SEW.
But honestly I think the point is the affects that playing the game has on everyone, be they simple traveling septon or warden of the North

[Grip]

My opinion of feudalism didnt change at all after reading ASOIAF..I wouldnt want to live in a feudal society but that doesnt mean that I think its the worst "society" ever. And I dont think Martins aim with this series was to open our eyes to the flaws of "medieval" society, I think its a bit more complex than that.

[another bastard]

I agree that one of the main themes is the absolute awfulness of feudalism or any other form of authoritarian political and social system. (I don't know if this is the intention of the author, but it's certainly what I get from the text.) In this thread:

http://asoiaf.wester...__fromsearch__1

I argued that the best ending of the series would be the beginnings of a transition toward constitutional monarchy, but it seems that few people agreed with me.

[danm_999]

Well, slavery seems worse than feudalism to me honestly.

[FuzzyJAM]

If there's a central theme to the series then it has to be morality and its complexities.  

I don't think Martin's style is to make a Point (with a capital "p"); it seems more to me that he wants to explore ideas and situations and see where they might take him and his readers.

Edited by FuzzyJAM, 23 May 2012 - 01:56 AM.

[Buried Treasure]

Slavers Bay is generally presented as far worse than Westeros and that is not feudal.

Feudalism isn't inherently bad - all those honourable knights and romantic songs are part of feudalism too. What the books are showing is that the system is so easily exploited that bad lords are more common than good lords.

[FuzzyJAM]

Buried Treasure, on 23 May 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

Slavers Bay is generally presented as far worse than Westeros and that is not feudal.

Feudalism isn't inherently bad - all those honourable knights and romantic songs are part of feudalism too. What the books are showing is that the system is so easily exploited that bad lords are more common than good lords.

Feudalism is inherently bad though, precisely because of how easy the system is to exploit.

[Dr. Pepper]

I would say this series has points and themes, not just a point and a theme.  Style of government is certainly a theme explored within the series.  There's everything from the egalitarianism of the free folk to the democratic Volantene to secret organization controlled Braavos to the military dictatorship of Slaver's Bay to feudalism in Westeros to plutocracy of Qarth.  All forms of government have their strengths and weaknesses.  I'd prefer feudalism during periods of peace over a democratic city like Volantis that uses slavery as part of their economic system.  My American government system isn't much different than feudalism.  Wealthy, powerful families form the majority of the government because they have wealth and power.  Those who make it up to national political office without the support of wealth and power often don't last....much like in Westeros.  What rules over all of the "lords" are the king corporations.  Different words, similar practice.

I have always found medieval feudal societies fascinating.  I definitely don't think a democratic system is better.  Every system is too easily exploited.  If I got to choose, I'd prefer the egalitarian free folk.

Edited by Dr. Pepper, 23 May 2012 - 03:09 AM.

[Lummel]

I agree with Dr Pepper on themes rather than a theme.

I am not sure that Westeros is feudal, but that anyhow leaving the historiographical debate to one side I would point to the system of honour current in Westeros as being more of a problem.  A lot of blood is shed purely for the sake of honour (Robert's rebellion, the war of the five kings, the Red Wedding) and we see it driving people to immoral actions (the kingsguard not protecting the Queen from Aeyrs II when he was inflamed) while moral actions are seen as dishonourable and a stain on the character (Jaime killing Aerys, The Ned looking after Jon).  That westeros has developed a culture of chivalry that glorifies honour in song and saga only makes everything worst (see S.Clegane passim).

[Stannis' sense of humour]

I think the main theme of the book is that Stannis Baratheon is the greatest person ever.

[SeanF]

Lummel, on 23 May 2012 - 03:33 AM, said:

I agree with Dr Pepper on themes rather than a theme. I am not sure that Westeros is feudal, but that anyhow leaving the historiographical debate to one side I would point to the system of honour current in Westeros as being more of a problem. A lot of blood is shed purely for the sake of honour (Robert's rebellion, the war of the five kings, the Red Wedding) and we see it driving people to immoral actions (the kingsguard not protecting the Queen from Aeyrs II when he was inflamed) while moral actions are seen as dishonourable and a stain on the character (Jaime killing Aerys, The Ned looking after Jon). That westeros has developed a culture of chivalry that glorifies honour in song and saga only makes everything worst (see S.Clegane passim).

Good point.  An honour-based culture can have the effect of punishing good and rewarding evil.

[LuisDantas]

It occurs to me that the Ironborn are more democratic than feudal.  It doesn't seem to mean that theirs is a better society.

[Pellaeon]

LuisDantas, on 23 May 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

It occurs to me that the Ironborn are more democratic than feudal. It doesn't seem to mean that theirs is a better society.

The Ironborn have more something like a elective monarchy.
IMHO the main theme of asoiaf is that there are not good or bad, only human