16 replies to this topic

[Sevumar]

I'm going to try to tie a few pieces of distant Valyrian, Westerosi, and Braavosi history together in a way that has little support in the books. This is mostly just an entertaining recombination of tidbits of information that don't seem to fit neatly into the overall narrative of ASIOAF.

During a recent reread of Feast, this description of the Temple of the Moonsingers (from Arya I) in Braavos grabbed my attention:

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It was one of those that Arya had spied from the lagoon, a mighty mass of snow-white marble topped by a huge silvered dome whose milk glass windows showed all the phases of the moon. A pair of marble maidens flanked its gates, tall as the Sealords, supporting a crescent-shaped lintel.

The passage is dominated by a physical description of the temple, which is pretty much as you'd expect: moon imagery, white stone, silvered dome. But what's with the large, marble maidens flanking the door? Most of what we know about the Moonsingers can be summed up in a sentence: they helped lead the ancestors of the Braavosi to a location of refuge where the dragons of Valyria couldn't find them.

The Moonsingers are also mentioned in connection with the Jogos Nhai people. Mirri Maz Duur is said to have learned birthing songs from a Moonsinger among those people. This might suggest a strong link between Moonsingers and women, but the statue is specifically mentioned as representing a maiden, not just any woman.

One particular maiden is said to have played an important role in Valyrian history, the maiden daughter of Aenar Targaryen. Everything we know about her comes from this passage in Asha's chapter, just a few chapters after Arya I:

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“Archmaester Marwyn’s Book of Lost Books.” He lifted his gaze from the page to study her. “Hotho brought me a copy from Oldtown. He has a daughter he would have me wed.” Lord Rodrik tapped the book with a
long nail. “See here? Marwyn claims to have found three pages of Signs and Portents, visions written down by the maiden daughter of Aenar Targaryen before the Doom came to Valyria."

The topic of Aenar's daughter's visions is never given, and readers have long speculated about what she might have seen. Ideas range from a foretelling of the Doom itself to the Prince that was Promised. Is it possible that the  unnamed daughter's visions could have been the basis for the actions of the Moonsingers? Did this Targaryen maiden see freedom for the slaves of Old Valyria? On a side note, this would provide an interesting historical parallel for Dany's actions in the cities of Slaver's Bay.

The first Samwell chapter of Feast mentions an old book that Sam discovers in the vaults of Castle Black, Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons by Maester Thomax. As far as I can tell, this seems to be the only source of information telling us how House Targaryen came to leave the Freehold for Dragonstone: exile. Could House Targaryen have been exiled from Valyria for inciting, supporting, or otherwise being involved in a slave uprising or the exodus of the founders of Braavos?

It makes little sense for a family of proud Dragonlords to move their seat to Dragonstone, a tiny island on the edge of a (slaveless) backwater Valyria never bothered to conquer, of its own accord. If Aenar Targaryen's daughter had simply foreseen the Doom, the House could have relocated to a richer area beyond the reach of the catastrophe. And then there's the matter of exile. A poor, isolated location on the fringes of Valyrian influence would have been the perfect destination for an exiled noble family.

We know that the Braavosi hold slavery in disdain to this day, and talk of dragons is always taken seriously there. Why, then, would the Sealord himself witness a secret marriage pact between the Martells and the surviving Targaryens with the goal of restoring the ousted dynasty to power? Perhaps the Targaryens have a history of sympathy toward or friendship with the ancestors of the Braavosi.

There are problems with the attempt to link up all of this disparate information. We have no idea of when Aenar Targaryen and his daughter lived, except that it predated the Doom. Braavos was founded (and remained secret) centuries before the Doom, so Targaryen assistance to the Braavosi would have also remained secret for a long time. If Maester Thomax's book is correct, and the Targaryens were exiled to Dragonstone as punishment, why were they permitted to take dragons or eggs with them? Why were they not wiped out for undermining the economic core of Valyria?

[danm_999]

Interesting theory. I would say that the Targaryens proved very malleable to Westerosi culture (Aegon converting to the Faith, keeping many old Lords), so perhaps they really were exiles from Valyria for not embodying the right values.

[Blisscraft]

Fascinating idea.  I like the anti-slavery stance in particular.  Anti-slavery is certainly a way to get oneself exiled.  Also, one of the Seven is the Maiden.

I have often wondered if the Seven weren't some sort of amalgamation to reconcile religious beliefs from different cultures.  That probably isn't the case, but who knows?  In ADWD, while traveling through Andalos, Tyrion talks about how the Father pulled down seven stars and set them on the head of Hugor of the Hill to make a crown.

[kissdbyfire]

I always assumed one of the reasons for choosing Dragonstone was the volcano(es). I also have thought much about the choice of the word 'exile' as you have mentioned. But the thing is, an exile is someone who is absent from their country either by force or voluntarily. What if  it's more a case of Aenar Targaryen's daughter foreseeing the Doom? She was one of those Targaryens who had prophetic dreams, people sort of believed her, and they exiled themselves taking dragon's eggs with them.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

This ties up a few different things that I've been interested in.  Why did the Targaryens end up on Dragonstone?  Was there anything more than cultural assimilation to the fact that Aegon did not bring slavery to Westeros?  Will the Sea-lord's name on that betrothal or Dany's anti-slavery stance end up meaning she will have some support from Braavos (Nestoris be damned)?

Also, I already love Braavos.  If it should turn out that the founding of the hidden city was prophesied by an abolitionist Targaryen, then I won't even complain when Martin kills off the rest of the Starks.

Edited by Tumnas the Torpid, 23 May 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[Sevumar]

Kyssetafild, on 23 May 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

I always assumed one of the reasons for choosing Dragonstone was the volcano(es).

This is a good point and another possibility for why the location was chosen. It's the only place outside Valyria proper where the Dragonlords seemed to have build anything for their own use. It makes me wonder if they had other volcanic areas under their dominion and whether they were used for dragon-related activities.

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I also have thought much about the choice of the word 'exile' as you have mentioned. But the thing is, an exile is someone who is absent from their country either by force or voluntarily. What if it's more a case of Aenar Targaryen's daughter foreseeing the Doom? She was one of those Targaryens who had prophetic dreams, people sort of believed her, and they exiled themselves taking dragon's eggs with the.

The exile may have been self-imposed if what Aenar's daughter saw was indeed the Doom. That brings up questions of its own (did the Targaryens keep that knowledge to themselves, did they try to spread it, and if so, how did others react?). In fact, I think that something Doom-related is probably the most likely subject of Aenar's daughter's dreams, but I wanted to use this thread to consider some alternate possibilities drawing on a few other loose pieces of information we learn in Feast.

[greygnarl]

This theory makes total sense. The only thing I can think of is that this seems so deep that unless there is some payoff it makes very little sense to include this.

[Alkion]

Sevumar, on 23 May 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

this description of the Temple of the Moonsingers (from Arya I) in Braavos grabbed my attention: The passage is dominated by a physical description of the temple, which is pretty much as you'd expect: moon imagery, white stone, silvered dome. But what's with the large, marble maidens flanking the door? Most of what we know about the Moonsingers can be summed up in a sentence: they helped lead the ancestors of the Braavosi to a location of refuge where the dragons of Valyria couldn't find them. The Moonsingers are also mentioned in connection with the Jogos Nhai people.

I went back and looked at this part of the story, and it struck me just how much detail we're given on the Moonsingers, their backstory, and their temple. When it comes to Arya passing the temple, the only other one given close to the amount of description the Moonsinger temple is given is the Temple of R'hllor, and they've become major players in the story. It makes me wonder if this is one of those little hints Martin sets up, that will become factors down the line. It is said that the Moonsingers led the people to Braavos where the Valyrian dragons could not find them. Was this merely through a long period of complete self-imposed isolation (ending with the Doom), or could there have been magic or other factors at work. At any rate, after reading this I'd like to know a lot more about the Moonsingers and what role they played in the foundation of Braavos, and what, if any connection they had to the Targs.

On that point, the link between the Moonsingers and the Targs (the Maiden of the Moonsingers = daughter of Aenar Targaryen), seem tenuous at best, but it's a nice theory that would neatly tie the whole thing together. It's a nice bit of speculation that I hadn't thought of before. Like (I suspect) many, when I initially read about Aenar Targaryen's daughter and her visions, I figured that they were about the Doom, and that those visions led the Targs to set up on Dragonstone so that they could avoid it and come out the strongest of the remains of the empire. I still think that is most likely, but I got to thinking, we don't know when she lived and had these visions, but we do know that they filled at least one book. She could easily have forseen the Doom, the Targ prophecies (Prince the Was Promised), and even the settlement of Braavos.

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“Archmaester Marwyn’s Book of Lost Books.” He lifted his gaze from the page to study her. “Hotho brought me a copy from Oldtown. He has a daughter he would have me wed.” Lord Rodrik tapped the book with a
long nail. “See here? Marwyn claims to have found three pages of Signs and Portents, visions written down by the maiden daughter of Aenar Targaryen before the Doom came to Valyria."

I think this passage implies that what we're talking about will payoff, when we finally get back to Marwyn. What those three pages include could answer all the speculation from this thread. Though that also brings up a possibility for another thread perhaps. Could the book that changed Rhaegar into a warrior be a full copy of Signs and Portents, and might it still exist somewhere in the world?

Edited by Alkion, 24 May 2012 - 01:32 AM.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Alkion, on 23 May 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

Could the book that changed Rhaegar into a warrior be a full copy of Signs and Portents, and might it still exist somewhere in the world?

Wherever por-tents go?

In all seriousness, however, this is a pretty intrigueing bit of speculation.  Sometimes I forget about Marwyn, because he's only had the one appearance, but he has the potential to answer a shit-ton of questions.  For instance, it would seem he has at least some knowledge of ancient Valyrian sorcery.  I would be very grateful if he could clear up the whole prince what got promised business, as well.

Also, Mirri Maz Duur drops Marwyn's name in Thrones.  You all probably don't need to be told that, but I did a literal double-take when I saw it on my second read-through.

[Prince of Braavos]

I think this is definitely on to something.  That conflict of interest with the Sealord and the marriage pact is a plot hole just asking to be filled and the history with the Braavosi, Targaryens, and Doom could fit it really well.  Mind you, I don't think it's a 100% correct theory, but I'd wager a lot of it is dead on.

As for the Moonsingers, I'm surprised nobody has brought up that old legend about the dragons coming out of an ancient second moon.  Given the weird seasons and the way they tie in with ice and fire, I've always figured that there's a really important truth behind that legend.  The Moonsingers could definitely start coming into the story if that's the case.

I've always figured there's a really grand "ice and fire" mythology behind all the magic (the seasons, the dragons, the Others, CotF, etc.) and the ways all this stuff fits together, even without all the missing pieces, really seems likely in some form.

[Faceless Frog Eater]

Wow ,thanks I did not catch that! I was gonna go to sleep but now I have to find that passage.

[Sevumar]

Alkion, on 23 May 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

I went back and looked at this part of the story, and it struck me just how much detail we're given on the Moonsingers, their backstory, and their temple.

They don't get a lot of time on the page, but when we hear about them they seem mysterious and important. After all, they seem to be the single most important group in the founding of one of the world's greatest trading and sea powers. I hope we find out more about them, what they believe, and how they accomplished the feats attributed to them. Their faith still seems to be important to a couple of different peoples.

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It is said that the Moonsingers led the people to Braavos where the Valyrian dragons could not find them. Was this merely through a long period of complete self-imposed isolation (ending with the Doom), or could there have been magic or other factors at work. At any rate, after reading this I'd like to know a lot more about the Moonsingers and what role they played in the foundation of Braavos, and what, if any connection they had to the Targs.

I'd love to know what kind of power could hide people from dragons. I can only imagine something magical or otherwordly in nature, since a rider on dragonback would probably have been able to find a city that doesn't seem all that concealed. This seems like it would be a good ability to have in the fight against an enemy like the Others.

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Like (I suspect) many, when I initially read about Aenar Targaryen's daughter and her visions, I figured that they were about the Doom, and that those visions led the Targs to set up on Dragonstone so that they could avoid it and come out the strongest of the remains of the empire.

Your point about the Targaryen maiden's visions filling a whole book is a good one. Signs and Portents could have easily contained material on a number of subjects, including the Doom and maybe the Prince who was Promised.

If the visions did foretell the Doom, why are the Targaryens alone among the surviving Dragonlords? That they alone escaped and continued their association with dragons suggests that perhaps there was a schism between them and the rest of the nobles of the Freehold. Whether they ended up on Dragonstone of their own accord or as a result of some punitive action, they may have had some grudge against their Valyrian brothers. I'd even go so far as to say there's a chance they weren't entirely broken up over the Doom.

Whether that potential falling out has it roots in Targaryen opposition to slavery or assistance to the Moonsingers is anyone's guess, but I think it's an interesting (if unlikely) idea to ponder.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I think that there is some validity to this theory (although we'll likely never discover why the Targs went to Dragonstone during ASOIAF, probably in some different story a la Dunk and Egg).  Another thing to consider is that, since the Braavosi hate slavery, and we can assume that the FM also hate slavery and are hostile to dragons and old valyria etc, why wouldn't the FM just send an assassin or two to off the Targs once it become apparent that they were forming a kingdom enforced through dragons?  I think that the Braavosi and the FM have some sort of allegiance/history with the Targs, most likely that history being the targs assisting the slaves--maybe it was a slavemaster who took pity on the slaves and was also a Targ and became the first FM?

Edited by Tyryan Lannister, 24 May 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[Blisscraft]

In ADWD, the kindly man tells Arya how the FM order is founded.  . . .

"[H]ow the first of us answered the prayers of slaves who wished for death. . . but one day, the first of us heard a slave praying not for his own death but for his master's.  So fervently did he desire this that he offered all he had, that his prayer might be answered.  And it seemed to our first brother that this sacrifice would be pleasing to Him of Many Faces, so that night he granted the prayer.  Then he went to the slave and said, 'You offered all you had for this man's death, but slaves have nothing but their lives.  That is what the god desires of you. For the rest of your days on earth, you will serve him.'  And from that moment on, we were two."

This passage connect the FM to anti-slavers.  It is it's foundation.

[Artemis]

Tyryan Lannister, on 24 May 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

I think that there is some validity to this theory (although we'll likely never discover why the Targs went to Dragonstone during ASOIAF, probably in some different story a la Dunk and Egg). Another thing to consider is that, since the Braavosi hate slavery, and we can assume that the FM also hate slavery and are hostile to dragons and old valyria etc, why wouldn't the FM just send an assassin or two to off the Targs once it become apparent that they were forming a kingdom enforced through dragons? I think that the Braavosi and the FM have some sort of allegiance/history with the Targs, most likely that history being the targs assisting the slaves--maybe it was a slavemaster who took pity on the slaves and was also a Targ and became the first FM?

I was a staunch "Braavos is anti-dragon, anti-slavery and anti-Targ" advocate but I have come to reconsider it (at least the anti-dragon and anti-Targ part). Especially because of the pact (mentioned in the OP) made by the Sealord of Braavos, William Darry and Oberyn Martell to wed Arianne to Viserys when they come of age. Why did Braavos agree to help place a Targ onto the Iron Throne unless the Braavosi might be friendly towards the Targs? (I say Braavosi instead of just the Sealord because eventually, had Viserys taken the Iron Throne, it would have become common knowledge who his supporters were and I don't believe that the Sealord would put his own personal interests over interest of the Braavosi denizens.)

Also, when I was doing a re-read of the Volantis chapters in ADwD, I noticed this:

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The tigers held sway for almost a century after the Doom of Valyria. For a time they were successful. A Volantene fleet took Lys and a Volantene army captured Myr, and for two generations all three cities were ruled from within the Black Walls. That ended when the tigers tried to swallow Tyrosh. Pentos came into the war on the Tyroshi side, along with the Westerosi Storm King. Braavos provided a Lyseni exile with a hundred warships, Aegon Targaryen flew forth from Dragonstone on the Black Dread, and Myr and Lys rose up in rebellion. The war left the Disputed Lands a waste, and freed Lys and Myr from the yoke. The tigers suffered other defeats as well. The fleet they sent to reclaim Valyria vanished in the Smoking Sea. Qohor and Norvos broke their power on the Rhoyne when the fire galleys fought on Dagger Lake. Out of the east came the Dothraki, driving smallfolk from their hovels and nobles from their estates, until only grass and ruins remained from the forest of Qohor to the headwaters of the Selhoru. After a century of war, Volantis found herself broken, bankrupt, and depopulated. It was then that the elephants rose up. They have held sway ever since. Some years the tigers elect a triarch, and some years they do not, but never more than one, so the elephants have ruled the city for three hundred years.

Why did Aegon the Conqueror align himself with Braavos, Lys, Myr, and the Baratheon king of Storm's End in the backing of Tyrosh against Volantis? I guess you could say that if Aegon was harboring intent to conquer Westeros at that time, he wanted to depose a potential Essosi empire in the making with Volantis as its hub. He might have wanted to crush a foreseeable threat to his power once he gained Westeros, especially if Volantis sought to expand their empire across the Narrow Sea in the future. This reason is plausible, definitely, but it doesn't at all tie into the more recent Braavosi Sealord pact. Hmmm..

Edited by Artemis, 25 May 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[Sevumar]

Artemis, on 25 May 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

Why did Braavos agree to help place a Targ onto the Iron Throne unless the Braavosi might be friendly towards the Targs? (I say Braavosi instead of just the Sealord because eventually, had Viserys taken the Iron Throne, it would have become common knowledge who his supporters were and I don't believe that the Sealord would put his own personal interests over interest of the Braavosi denizens.)

I agree with what you've said here. There doesn't seem to be another reasonable explanation for the Sealord's actions. If I remember correctly, the Sealord is a non-dynastic ruler, so there doesn't seem to be anything for him to gain for himself or his family by allying with the Targs. It seems much more likely that he's acting on some longstanding association or past arrangement with the family.

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Why did Aegon the Conqueror align himself with Braavos, Lys, Myr, and the Baratheon king of Storm's End in the backing of Tyrosh against Volantis? I guess you could say that if Aegon was harboring intent to conquer Westeros at that time, he wanted to depose a potential Essosi empire in the making with Volantis as its hub. He might have wanted to crush a foreseeable threat to his power once he gained Westeros, especially if Volantis sought to expand their empire across the Narrow Sea in the future. This reason is plausible, definitely, but it doesn't at all tie into the more recent Braavosi Sealord pact. Hmmm..

The quote from ADWD is a good catch. I had forgotten most of the details of Aegon's alliance against Volantis. That adds another potential link in an connection between the Targs and the Braavosi. I don't see many other reasons for Aegon to be concerned about the scope of Volantene power unless he had a personal or familial stake in the war. As easily as the Targaryen dragons helped him defeat the armies of Westeros, he probably didn't have anything to fear from a Volantene force. It seems reasonable to consider that he entered the war to support other allies, the most likely of which would be Braavos.

The wiki has a link to an SSM where it sounds like Volantis may have tried to secure Aegon's help before he entered the war on the other side. An old grudge against Valyria or anyone who might try to take its place might support the idea that the Targs were not on the best of terms with their fellow Dragonlords when they departed for Dragonstone.

[mrlukeduke]

I wonder how a change in power in Braavos might affect Stannis getting the coin and sellswords he needs.