483 replies to this topic

[Cirilla]

Maroucia, on 26 May 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

We NEED to see him again!!!
Or else, I I’ll be highly depressed and cry myself to sleep for a few mounts, before having no other choice but to turn to fanfics  as a mean to console myself and fill the ampty hole left in my heart...

I feel for you - have the same need for his presence as you do. It's just... slefish

But on the serious note, at this point I cannot imagine what Sandor will be back. (He WILL though. GRRM put too much effort into buliding this bloody story and hinting). Think what a minute with the boss of QI did to Brienne. After spending there some time Sandor is going to loose his xfactor. But on the other hand, knowing GRRM we are going to get something interesting out of this. WE HAVE TO!

Edited by Cirilla, 26 May 2012 - 09:25 PM.

[Red Wedding Participant]

Well, as creepy as the relationship would be irl, the good thing is that this is just a book series, and not even a movie, so it's not like it's even being ficitonally portrayed by real children (yes I know about the show, but the actresses are all older than their characters, and will certainly be of the age of majority by the time any of the stuff we are discussing happens), so it really doesn't bother me. It's the same with all the incest and torture and violence, I would be opposed to it in real life, but it's fiction, so who cares?

[Queen Cersei I]

Lyanna Stark, on 25 May 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Tyrion is three years younger than Sandor I think. As another sidenote, you have Dany - Khal Drogo, and Dany is 13 in AGOT so very, very young and God only knows how old Khal Drogo is, but I would be extremely surprised if he is under 25. In ADWD Dany is 16-17 or some such, and Daario is probably around Khal Drogo's age at the very least. (I'd hesitate to bring Dany up as a good example either as I don't think she is, but a lot of people like her relationship with Drogo and it is described as a mainly positive thing for her, despite her young age.) Brienne and Jaime have exactly the same age difference as Sandor and Sansa according to the Wiki timeline (15-16 years), and between LF and Sansa I think it's 26 years, give or take a little. You also have Lyanna - Rhaegar where she was 15ish and he was 23. This seems to be the author's choice far more than any reader perversion for younger woman - older man since what's there is what we've got.

I see a definite issue with the frequent occurrence of the older man/ younger (sometimes barely adolescent age) female in these books. One could argue that it is all an accurate representation of the times on GRRM’s part, however, there are still a few issues that arise.

First, there is the fact that he very often portrays such relationships as totally normal, with no apparent issues. Of course, an issue of the times. However, I felt that with Drogo/ Dany, the issue of the major age difference/ Danerys young age was brought up and recognized (though not necessarily dwelt with in a realistic or believable fashion WRT the fallout of the relationship.) However, in quite a few other cases, significant age gaps (in which a grown man often falls an extremely young, oftentimes barely pubescent female) often pass by without any notice or emphasis by the author.

For instance, when the 22-year-old Rheagar meets and falls in love with Lyanna Stark at the Harrenhal Tourney, (a year before the war and over two years before her death) she is fourteen, perhaps even still 13 ½ years old.  There is no issue here. The books seem to present this as a somewhat selfish, doomed but also undeniably romantic love story; the age difference is a non-issue. Similarly, readers rarely (if ever) comment upon the age difference. And while Cersei Lannister is portrayed as something of a predator by sleeping with the 16 (almost 17) year old Lancel, Edmure’s hook up with a girl the very same age (over a decade his junior) is presented as utterly normal.

The 45-year-old Jorah starts having the hots for Dany when she is barely 14. There is no implication of pedophilia involved, or anything slightly “off” involved. Jorah is not portrayed to look sexy or an enticing love interest; but that is a different matter than making his attraction to a barely 14-year-old kid look normal. And while many may protest, noting they fact that the Dany/Jorah thing utterly disgusted them—and I, for the record, am right there with them on that one—my point is that while GRRM does not present Jorah as romantic or a viable sex partner for Danerys, he does not portray his sexual interest in her as overtly gross or weird. And Danerys, in one of the most ridiculous male fantasy inspired thoughts in these novels, actually feels insulted when Baristan Selmy fails to stare at her exposed breast in ADWD, thinking wistfully that Jorah would have done so. (“Dany noticed Barristan carefully averted his eyes from her exposed left breast. She sighed, feeling hurt. Baristan loves me only as his queen, not as a woman. Jorah would have never turned his face away like that.”) Interestingly, Dany (and we, the readership) assume Xaro Xhoan Daxos is gay because of his failure to stare at the then barely 14 year old Danerys exposed breast. Because a guy would have to be gay to not ogle the tits of a barely 14 year old kid? Huh?

Furthermore, while Danerys age and the exploited position she is placed in when she is sold to a grown man at 13 is emphasized and very much part of the plot, there are a few issues. Though the marriage is presented as wrong; Drogo’s sexual attraction to her on their wedding night (and the things he does to arouse Dany) is presented as sweet and romantic. (The author has stated in interviews that he considers the wedding night between the 30 something Drogo and the 13-year-old Danerys to be the “most romantic scenes in the book.”) And, true to form, it seems to be presented as sexy/ romantic. After the initial emphasis on the wrongness of the situation and admission that Danerys is being exploited by Viserys, Drogo’s sexual attraction to his child wife is not presented in a way that makes it look at all unhealthy, creepy, or unnatural.

And on the wedding night, after rubs Danerys body and shows some sexual consideration, this previously terrified 13-year-old kid is ready for a night of hot, wild sex with a grown man. And though future nights (predictably) make her sore and miserable, eventually she comes to adore the sex. (As, apparently, only a 13-year-old kid being screwed by a grown man can. ) She learns tons of sexual tricks and rides him cowboy style in rather voyeuristically described scenes. These scenes are made to look like personal liberation for Danerys, but considering the fact that this is a 13 year old kid who is sold to a grown man in his 30’s, treated with kindness by him once on their wedding night, roughly screwed by him in a way that makes her cry for weeks thereafter, and forced into a sexual relationship far before any normal kid would be ready, Danerys “sexual liberation” savors less of honest, feminist characterization, more of sweltering personal fantasy. And, it must be said, a fantasy where something of a fetish for extremely young girls and a (perhaps willful) lack of true understanding for their personal psychology seems present.      

Also interesting is the fact that there is a major double standard between the male and female age differences. For instance, Cersei is often dubbed a “pervert” or corrupter for sleeping with the nearly 17 year old Lancel at the age of 31. However, the 33-year-old Jaime’s budding romance with the 19 year old Brienne is presented as sexy and romantic, and applauded by many readers. Never is it implied in the books that there is a significant age difference here, or that Jaime is hooking up with a “younger woman.”

The age difference between Ceresi and Lancel is frequently drawn attention to and called out by readers; whilst no one ever mentions the equal age difference between Jaime and Brienne. In the books, it is simply a non-issue, in stark contrast to the explicit focus on how Cersei seduced “a younger man.”

FuzzyJAM, on 25 May 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

To be fair, I do think GRRM is a little bit. . .not paedophilic, but. . .well, when you answer a question about which of your characters you'd want to meet and practically drool over the idea of meeting with your "super hot" 15 year old creation, there can be concerns. Any creepiness that exists due to how the books present adult/adolescent relationships. Of course, the arguments is that "adolescence" is a recent idea and doesn't exist in (faux-)medieval society, but it also appears that it's an idea Martin doesn't actually agree with.

From the beginning, there are some problems WRT GRRM’s treatment of very young girls and their sexualities in these books, that can be separated from the times that he is trying to portray.

Kittykatknits, on 25 May 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

Martin wrote the first book in the series back in the early 90s. At the time, it was commonly assumed that women, especially the nobility, married younger than they actually did. Most research in to the lives and marriage of women has only taken place in the past 10-15 years, well after Martin started writing - when the ages of all the younger characters were already set. HBO was able to correct this to some degree but its to late for the books. Martin had also planned for a five year gap to take place after ASOS which we all know he dropped so we are left with characters who are younger than they should be. I said this in an earlier post, but we are at the point with all pretty much all of them, not just Sansa, that they need to be mentally aged up for the story to be a bit more believable. Bran is 9 yet is going to become the greatest wizard of all time in a couple more months? It's the same thing with Arya the assassin. Martin made a mistake with the younger characters and the narrative suffers for it which is why these discussions end up taking place. At the current place in the story, Sansa is 14 years and 3 or 4 months by my estimate. IF the gap had been in place, she would have been 18 when we next see her. That's an age most people would have preferred. My hope now is that the story will proceed, whatever that story is, as Martin originally planned. @Melpomene - Personally, I dont know why anyone takes Tyrion/Sansa seriously, but that's just me.

Personally, I think the problematic sexulization of young girls has been there from the very first novel and, alas, cannot be attributed to the absence of the five year gap. Danerys is heavily sexualized in the first novel and continues to be so in further  volumes; though it is true that Danerys does get a good, coherent characterization and a healthy sexuality, the author also (IMO) sexualizes her in a way that can be separated from a portrayal of her a healthy, sexual being.

In the second volume, this tendency continues with Sansa, though it is quite a bit subtler, and much more of a controversial issue. Personally, I think the author’s comments upon Sansa’s body (particularly her “budding breasts”) seem in a few instances, less a reflection of Sansa’s internal psychology than a commentary on her  body itself.

[romantic]

Cirilla, on 26 May 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

When Sandor puts his head straight on QI (which may never happen beacuse it seems tome he's beyound the point of repair) he will stop obsessing about her.

Respectfully, I disagree that he's beyond the point of repair. He seems to still have a moral compass (i.e. he is one of the few people in KL that can differentiate between right and wrong and has a better understanding of honour than most of the knights and landed class do). Her plight in KL affects him and, when forced to choose between his 'owners' and her, he chooses her - abandoning his job, his status and his sense of belonging. He's racked with guilt that he couldn't help her more and IMO this is reflected in how he cares (in his own rough way) for Arya.

At his core, I think he's a moral person who's behaved in ways he regrets but always consoled himself with the thought that he's acting out of loyalty to his second 'family' - the Lannisters. I don't want him to become part of the 'family' on the QI, though I hope he finds friendship and acceptance there and learns not to solve problems with violence. I want him to learn to be true to himself and become an individual and stop searching for a surrogate family.

As someone once said on another thread 'Sandor is a complex dude' (sorry can't remember which thread!) and I love how his arc is progressing. IMO staying on the QI for the rest of his life, while outwardly peaceful, would leave him inwardly restless and unsatisifed. He needs to resolve some stuff with Sansa, even if it's just to confirm, in person, that she is happy/content. Sansa also needs to see him again because she has unresolved feelings - again even if it is just to confirm that he is happy/content.

Sandor and Sansa are both intriguing characters and I like how their arcs intersect. I also want to see more of Sandor.

[jlk7e]

Great post, Queen Cersei - you hit on a lot of the queasiness I feel when reading the book.  Most of the time, I basically just pretend the characters are older than they're said to be,but it's really creepy, and it's in no way necessitated by the real history, where consummated marriages of 13 year old girls were rare.  There are certainly some examples - Henry VII's mother was impregnated when she was 12 or 13, but this was highly unusual, and mostly suggests that Edmund Tudor was a horrifying brute.  If somebody wrote a historical fiction series about the Wars of the Roses that depicted the marriage between Margaret Beaufort and Edmund Tudor as a great love match, and wrote erotic sex scenes between them, and drooled over what a hotty his 14 year old Margaret Beaufort character was, that would be creepy, too.  Because grown men lusting after 13 year old girls is creepy.

[Sylvan Fox]

jlk7e, on 26 May 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Great post, Queen Cersei - you hit on a lot of the queasiness I feel when reading the book. Most of the time, I basically just pretend the characters are older than they're said to be,but it's really creepy, and it's in no way necessitated by the real history, where consummated marriages of 13 year old girls were rare. There are certainly some examples - Henry VII's mother was impregnated when she was 12 or 13, but this was highly unusual, and mostly suggests that Edmund Tudor was a horrifying brute. If somebody wrote a historical fiction series about the Wars of the Roses that depicted the marriage between Margaret Beaufort and Edmund Tudor as a great love match, and wrote erotic sex scenes between them, and drooled over what a hotty his 14 year old Margaret Beaufort character was, that would be creepy, too. Because grown men lusting after 13 year old girls is creepy.

If I'm not mistaken, it wasn't common in Europe but in other parts of the world it did happen more often. In China, for instance, the marriage age was once 15 for boys and 13 for girls (I think this was a sort of political thing. It was a terrible time in China, with lots of war, famine, disease, and high taxes. The government thought this would increase the population, so they clearly expected these marriages to be consummated). Still, it's not like China never abandoned this system. I think Westerosi people just have a super messed-up society.

[Queen Cersei I]

FuzzyJAM, on 26 May 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:


Sure. I was countering the potential "It's a representation of values and thoughts at the time, not how the author thinks", which to some extent could work were it not for the fact that GRRM has made it clear outwith the novels that he finds his adolescent females attractive.  

To be honest, I find the whole sexual aspect of ASoIaF a little bit. . .off.


Oh, and I for the most part am in total agreement with you on this one. However, I’m not sure if I’d venture to say for sure whether the author, in his own personal thoughts, is sexually attracted to Sansa, Danerys, etc. Though I agree with you the sexualization of extremely young girls in this series goes far beyond “showing the norms of the times”, I’m not sure it is fair to make a definite statement about the author’s sexual predilections in real life.

So while I’m not sure it’s fair to say GRRM clearly lusts after his 13, 14, or 15 year old female characters, I think he occasionally blatantly sexualizes said characters in a way that goes far beyond what is necessary to represent “the norms of them times.” In fact, one might even argue that GRRM’s portrayal as Danerys as a sexed up young nymphet at the age of 13 loving every last second of being screwed by her adult husband is in direct opposition to “the truths of the time period,” in which young girls were married to grown men and frequently subjected to sexual experiences they were in no way ready for (and that occasionally scarred them for life.)

Sylvan Fox, on 26 May 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

If I'm not mistaken, it wasn't common in Europe but in other parts of the world it did happen more often. In China, for instance, the marriage age was once 15 for boys and 13 for girls (I think this was a sort of political thing. It was a terrible time in China, with lots of war, famine, disease, and high taxes. The government thought this would increase the population, so they clearly expected these marriages to be consummated). Still, it's not like China never abandoned this system. I think Westerosi people just have a super messed-up society.

Yes, but regardless of the norms of the time, GRRM's sexualization of barely pubescent girls like Dany and, to a lesser extent, Sansa, still remains a disturbing and problematic issue, IMO.

Futhermore, though there is generally a chorus that objects that "those were the norms of the time" (with some justification) every time the issue of GRRM and incredibly young girls is mentioned, the fact is that his portrayals are not even accurate for the time. For instance, he represents grown men lusting after the 12 and barely 13 year old Sansa as par for the course and generally accepted behavior. However, during the time period on which these books are reputed to be based, though girls of the marriage class were occasionally married as young as 12, the consumation was almost always put off for several years, until the girl was 15 or 16. And contrary to sexual attractions to barely pubescent girls being accepted as normal, there are numerous signs that most people considered such feelings as creepy as we do today. For instance, the most obvious example is King John Lackland and his 12 year old child bride; a union that disgusted and disconcerted many people when it was consumated at age 12 or 13, including the girls own parents, who benefited considerably from the union. There are other examples of this as well.

So the idea that grown men wanting to screw 13 year old girls is an accurate reflection of the time period is not wholly accurate.

[Cirilla]

romantic, on 26 May 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

Respectfully, I disagree that he's beyond the point of repair. He seems to still have a moral compass[...]

I never meant to imply that Sandor lacks a moral compass or is inherently a bad character. On the contrary, I agree with what you said. I actually think that the ambiguity of Sandors character is what makes him so interesting.

I just doubt that it would be easy to put the man straight after 20-something years of psychological (and physical, as a child) abuse and stress related to fighting wars and being Lannisters' killer. He might be unfullfilled as a person on QI, I agree with that. But what else can he do? He has no money, his reputation is shattered (he loss his belly for fighting (1) or he is cruel murderer and rapist(2), everyone knows he deserted (3)) and he cannot take up another identity because of his visible scars. I guess he could go to the east... I may be lacking wits here - there is definitely some path he can follow.  Guess GRRM will tell us sooner or later.

[Nymeria's]

Sansa is in no way in love with the damn Hound. He might be in love with her because she is kind to him, but it's not reciprocal. Sansa is a teenager who just flowered.

Remember what it was like to be that age? Everything turned you on. The only man in the realm, other than Tyrion, who tries to protect her might turn her on, but it isn't love; it's hormones. I'm guessing she is not going to have the hots for the dwarf. The reason she compares him everyone she meets to him is because he's the only who actively does anything to help her...until Littlefinger. I think it's sick to romanticize them but not any sicker than Dany/ Khal Drogo, I guess.

[Lyanna Stark]

Nymeria, on 27 May 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

Sansa is in no way in love with the damn Hound. He might be in love with her because she is kind to him, but it's not reciprocal. Sansa is a teenager who just flowered.

Remember what it was like to be that age? Everything turned you on. The only man in the realm, other than Tyrion, who tries to protect her might turn her on, but it isn't love; it's hormones. I'm guessing she is not going to have the hots for the dwarf. The reason she compares him everyone she meets to him is because he's the only who actively does anything to help her...until Littlefinger. I think it's sick to romanticize them but not any sicker than Dany/ Khal Drogo, I guess.

You mean that Sansa is infatuated with the Hound because she finds him the epitome of handsomeness or something, hence the "hormones" comment? While he is in love with her because she is nice to him?

In fact, if you want teenage hormones making her go googly eyed about somebody, it's Loras Tyrell. She thinks when Loras is escorting her to Margaery Tyrell's little meeting in ASOS Sansa I:

Quote

Sansa was finding it hard to walk and talk and think all at the same time, with Ser Loras touching her arm. She could feel the warmth of his hand through the silk.
"Lady Olenna. She is to sup with you as well."
"Oh," said Sansa. I am talking to him, and he is touching me, he's holding my arm and touching me.

At another point she thinks about running her hands over Loras' chest, so she's definitely got a teenage crush on Loras. And no wonder, he's supposed to be super pretty and all sorts of hot!! That's like condemning someone for finding Johnny Depp attractive. She thinks of Loras as an object of her affection and desires, but Sansa does not consider him a person as such, he's mostly a pretty face.

When she thinks about the Hound in the same chapter, it has a very different flavour with none of the hormonal infused infatuation that Loras gets.

Quote

Even so, she must accept. She was nothing now, the discarded daughter of a traitor and a disgraced sister of a rebel lord. She could scarcely refuse Joffrey's queen-to-be.
I wish the Hound were here.

Loras is all well and good and pretty, but when she's miserable and feels unsafe, she wishes for the Hound. She's never bedazzled with his pretty looks though (most likely because he's not pretty) nor his gallant behaviour (also missing) and although his touching her is almost always described as "gentle" or "not ungently" she never goes all ZAMAGAHD he is touching me I cannot think straight, like she does here with Loras. It seems fairly well established in the text that Sansa's "hormonal crushes" are first Joffrey and even more strongly, Loras.

Unlike most girls, Sansa really learns that prettiness is not next to godliness in a really dramatic fashion and although she's not completely dropped the notion of Loras being pretty as of AFFC, she's come to value other attributes higher.

Here she has some interesting thoughts on Ser Lothor Brune, Littlefinger's retainer:

Quote

Alayne wondered what Mya Stone made of Ser Lothor. With his squashed nose, square jaw, and nap of woolly grey hair, Brune could not be called comely, but he was not ugly either. It is a common face but an honest one… Sober, he was a quiet man, but a strong one. And Petyr says he’s loyal. He trusts him as much as he trusts anyone. Brune would be a good match for a bastard girl like Mya Stone, she thought. It might be different if her father had acknowledged her, but he never did. And Maddy says she’s no maid either.

Note that Sansa/Alayne here wonders what Mya would make of Lothor Brune, but she herself seems generally pretty appreciative of Brune's traits which are far from the prettiness and gallantry of Loras (also a nice comment about sobriety here, haha). Earlier in ASOS, she mistakes Brune for Sandor Clegane when he scares off Marillion.

Quote

"Unhand me. You forget yourself."
"Mercy. I have been singing love songs for hours. My blood is stirred. And yours, I know...there's no wench half so lusty as one bastard born. Are you wet for me?"
"I am a maiden," she protested.
"Truly? Oh, Alayne, Alayne, my fair maid, give me the gift of your innocence. You will thank the gods that you did. I'll have you singing louder than the lady Lysa."
Sansa jerked away from him, frightened. "If you don't leave me, my au- my father will hang you, Lord Petyr."
"Littlefinger?" He chuckled. "Lady Lysa loves me well, and I am Lord Robert's favourite. If your father offends me, I will destroy him with a verse." He put a hand on her breast, and squeezed. "Let's get you out of these wet clothes. You wouldn't want them ripped, I know. Come sweet lady, heed your heart -"
Sansa heard the soft sound of steel on leather. "Singer," a rough voice said, "best go, if you want to sing again." The light was dim, but she saw the faint a faint glimmer of a blade.
The singer saw it too. "Find your own wench - " The knife flashed, and he cried out. "You cut me!"
"I'll do worse, if you don't go."
And quick as that, Marillion was gone. The other remained, looming over Sansa in the darkness. "Lord Petyr said watch out for you." It was Lothor Brune's voice, she realised. Not the Hound's, no, how could it be? Of course it had to be Lothor...

Mainly here she seems to trust the Hound to have her back, unlike almost anyone else. Throughout, she's learnt the hard way to be extremely suspicious of people. She questions Margaery's motive initially, she's bewildered by Tyrion and feels she can't trust him, she wishes she had somewhere else to run in AFFC but realises she has to stay with Littlefinger. Continuously, she seems to think of Sandor Clegane as someone who, despite his wrongheaded attitude, his drunken antics and general uncouth demeanour, was on her side. All well and good so far, right?

Now, what made me go "Eh?" the first time I read the series were the following three sections which I think indicate that Sansa may be subconsciously starting to place Sandor in a different role. Note that these are all from ASOS and AFFC, so this is well after they are separated.

In ASOS, during Lysa's and Littlefinger's wedding (which also contains the Marillion scene) we get first this bit:

Quote

Sansa went down the steps and out into the night. A light rain was falling on the remains of the feast, but the air smelt fresh and clean. The memory of her own wedding night was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all liars here, and everyone better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane Did he know that they’d killed Joffrey? Would he care? He had been the prince’s sworn shield for years.

Then Sansa returns to bed and finds Bryen's old blind dog, we have the Marillion incident happening where he claims he'll have Sansa "singing louder than the Lady Lysa", and afterwards this:

Quote

That night Sansa scarcely slept at all, but tossed and turned just as she had aboard the Merling King. She dreamt of Joffrey dying, but as he clawed her at his throat and the blood ran down her fingers she saw with horror that it was her brother Robb. And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he crawled into bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. “I wish you were Lady,” she said.

The sequence of events are written in such a way as to definitely leave a lasting impression that Sansa's view of Sandor is changing in his absence.

Then in AFFC, we get:

Quote

It was a little boy’s kiss, and clumsy. Everything Robert Arryn did was clumsy. If I close my eyes I can pretend he is the Knight of Flowers. Ser Loras had given Sansa Stark a red rose once, but he had never kissed her … and no Tyrell would ever kiss Alayne Stone. Pretty as she was, she had been born on the wrong side of the blanket.
As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt when his cruel mouth pressed down on her. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.
It made no matter. That day was done and so was Sansa.

So again we have Loras popping up, but he disappears fairly quickly, and Sansa is very aware of that Loras/The Tyrells would never care for Sansa-the-person, but what she actually thinks of, although he remains unnamed is Sandor (even more interestingly, he never actually kissed her, but she seems to remember it really, really vividly).

Coincidence? Perhaps. But in that case, this next bit with Sansa talking to Myranda Royce is definitely not, and unless there's been a shift in how Sansa views Sandor, there is simply no explanation for this that I can think of.

Quote

"I do need another husband, I had one once, but I killed him."
"You did?" Alayne said, shocked.
"Oh yes. He died on top of me. In me, if truth be told. You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?"
She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he'd kissed her, and gave a nod.

Tyrion is logical here, as she is in fact married to him and has been faced with him in the marriage bed, but why does she think of Sandor Clegane in conjunction with marriage beds?
Sure, I guess people could still argue that Sansa has some sort of weird infatuation but in fact whatever it is she feels for him seems to be evolving slowly and hardly seems like teenage hormonal infatuation to me, but something that's nearly unconscious to her at this time. While you could argue that the Hound has some of the traits of the very attractive guys (he's tall and athletic) he's also not popular or pretty unlike Loras. While I am sure there are guys around who are less attractive than the Hound, he's definitely a bit of a hard sell due to his disfigured face and general attitude problems and would in no way qualify as a first or even tenth choice when it comes to teenage crush object.


As for Sandor's feelings on the subject, he certainly appreciates her and find her pretty and regrets not doing more for her, but does he love her? I'm not sure this can be stated, nor that he CAN in the mental state he is in (I also think it's indicated at least once that he finds her too young to consider in that context). The Elder Brother states in his speech about the Hound on the QI that he loved nobody and was loved by nobody, although I suppose we can possibly consider that to be about the Hound  as an aspect of Sandor's persona. But as it stands, it seems more like a "setting the stage" sort of thing for the future.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 27 May 2012 - 10:12 AM.

[FuzzyJAM]

In regards historical accuracy, I'm not big on medieval Europe, but I know extremely young (sometimes pre-teen) girls marrying adult men has been seen as desirable in some cultures.  Probably the most famous instance of this is the controversial marriage of Mohammad to his third wife Aisha.  They married when she was about 7 and the marriage was reported to be consummated when she was 9, though some have claimed she may have been up to 11.  It makes little difference, and the point is that her being a child is emphasised as a good thing pretty consistently for centuries after as it shows she was a virgin and pure and whatever other bullshit you can come up with.  As I said, I don't know about medieval Europe, but the fact is that such societies can exist, and GRRM is, after all, writing using medieval Europe as a template to work from rather than pure transposition - it is not unreasonable to see Westeros attitude regarding age in sexual relationships (and Essos, to at least some extent) as a possibility.


And I feel OK saying GRRM is attracted to, at least, Dany.  I don't have a link, but in an interview he got a question something like "Who would you like to have a meal with from your books?" and he said "Dany. . .because she's HOT!" (Cue laughs from audience, and me seriously wtf'ing and wondering why no one is pointing out that she's 1/4th his age).  I despise people putting words into the mouths of others and try to avoid doing so as much as possible, so I wouldn't definitively say, e.g. GRRM likes b-cup breasts (though I rather suspect he does judging by the books frequent descriptions of "small breasts" for the super hotties [as an aside, breast size is directly linked to temperament in the books for minor female characters, it's almost hilarious short hand that practically seems intentional]) or something like that, but his attraction to (at least one of) his adolescent characters is self declared.

[Queen of Spades]

Lyanna Stark, on 27 May 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

As for Sandor's feelings on the subject, he certainly appreciates her and find her pretty and regrets not doing more for her, but does he love her? I'm not sure this can be stated, nor that he CAN in the mental state he is in (I also think it's indicated at least once that he finds her too young to consider in that context). The Elder Brother states in his speech about the Hound on the QI that he loved nobody and was loved by nobody, although I suppose we can possibly consider that to be about the Hound  as an aspect of Sandor's persona. But as it stands, it seems more like a "setting the stage" sort of thing for the future.

For my part, I think he is in love with her, but has never realized it, mostly because it is not a feeling he knows.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Aurgh!  OK....in answer to a few posts back.....about someone believing Sandor and taking his word on everything in regards to his threats.....this poster hasn't fully read ASOS because it was pretty much established Sandor aka The Hound was all sorts of loud barking with no much bite in regards to threats made to little girls.....He promised all kinds of pain to Arya and yet the only time he hurt her was to save her life.  Even Arya figured out he was bark bark bark and didn't follow through on his threats

[Lummel]

FuzzyJAM, on 27 May 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

... [as an aside, breast size is directly linked to temperament in the books for minor female characters, it's almost hilarious short hand that practically seems intentional])...

I think you need to expand on this for the benefit of all readers.  Afterall it could very well be the next astrology or phrenology.

[Lyanna Stark]

FuzzyJAM, on 27 May 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

(though I rather suspect he does judging by the books frequent descriptions of "small breasts" for the super hotties [as an aside, breast size is directly linked to temperament in the books for minor female characters, it's almost hilarious short hand that practically seems intentional]) or something like that, but his attraction to (at least one of) his adolescent characters is self declared.

Really? I always got the impression that Cersei was both described as really good looking and had at least an above average cleavage but maybe I was wrong? Myranda Royce comments on Sansa's rack as being ok but smaller than her own in AFFC, but I'm not sure exactly what size she's supposed to be, only that I think Myranda is described something like "with ample bosom" or some such. It's not really a subject I've spent a lot of time investigating, I have to admit.

Do your duty FuzzyJam and investigate!!!

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 27 May 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[Lummel]

Lyanna Stark, on 27 May 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

... It's not really a subject I've spent a lot of time investigating, I have to admit...

Well no of course not, you're a married woman, this is the kind of job that requires a man's hand!

[Errant Bard]

Queen Cersei I, on 26 May 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

For instance, when the 22-year-old Rheagar meets and falls in love with Lyanna Stark at the Harrenhal Tourney, (a year before the war and over two years before her death) she is fourteen, perhaps even still 13 ½ years old.  There is no issue here. The books seem to present this as a somewhat selfish, doomed but also undeniably romantic love story; the age difference is a non-issue.

Wait, wait. I know this is tangential, but where do the books present anything about that? As far as I know, this Harrenhal meeting so far happens only in the minds of R+L=J manic theorists, so I would argue that if you see this as something the book present, then it's only because you see what you project.

I'd say this is also true for most of the other relationships. It's not presented as normal (as in: the norm) nor as a nice thing, but a lot of readers want some happy/normal couples to happen and so they have to deal with age differences.

[FuzzyJAM]

Lummel, on 27 May 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

I think you need to expand on this for the benefit of all readers.  Afterall it could very well be the next astrology or phrenology.

Women with larger breasts can be attractive and fun and everything, but true ladies have small breasts to go along with their poise.  Larger breasts are essentially vulgar, although that has an overly negative connotation - "rude" (in the more archaic sense) would perhaps fit more.  If your breasts aren't mentioned you're probably kind of average and not all that interesting.  

Much as I'm tempted to do further research, I'm not going to scan over my books looking for references to breast size.  Perhaps this issue can be put to GRRM, though that would sadly eat into his interview time to tell us who his favourite character is, and no interviewer wants to miss that exciting news!

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

The scene that exemplifies Sandor's unrealistic view of the world, colored by adherence to his own philosophy of cynicism and survival of the fittest rather than true understanding and empathy for others is the scene in ASOS when he meets with the brotherhood without banners.

____Well and I think this is the point.  Both of them were "delusional" about their world views and they each taught each other to see the "other side".  
He taught her to see the ugliness in the world which helped her to survive...and she showed him that beauty does still exist.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Women with larger breasts can be attractive and fun and everything, but true ladies have small breasts to go along with their poise. Larger breasts are essentially vulgar, although that has an overly negative connotation - "rude" (in the more archaic sense) would perhaps fit more. If your breasts aren't mentioned you're probably kind of average and not all that interesting.


OK so my quotes aren't working....anyways....*looking down*...umm...ya know.,..women aren't given a CHOICE on breast size.  Silcone aside, we are BORN this way....Its not like breast size is determined by how you are raised.