483 replies to this topic

[SerMixalot]

Redemption for most violent people in Westeros seems to be either death or taking the black.  In Sandors case, if he is at the QI, I can see it becoming a monk like character.

[Kittykatknits]

Rapsie, on 24 May 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

@lilenaheas

The quoting gods are clearly against us.

We may disagree about the interpretation of that line, but I'm not trying to whitewash the character.
He is a brutal man who has done horrible things. I think he has been on a redemption arc for a while now, but that doesn't change the fact that he did take pleasure in killing.

Edit: @KittyKatKnits

I agree entirely with your whole post! With the only exception being, that while Hollywood Rom-Coms are something I could happily live without I do like the over the top Barbara Cartland and Catherine Cookson films and TV adaptations.

Thanks.

Ha. I can't seem to edit posts today for some reason. I blame the gods.

[Valkyrja]

lilenadheas, on 24 May 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

. A soldier kills other soldiers (in an ideal world, we know that they rape/pillage/murder), but Sandor can kill a child as easily as he can kill a grown man. That shit is scary

No one's ever said the Hound is not scary......he *is* scary, especially to Sansa (at least, to Sansa of AGoT and to some extent ACoK). But he is hardly unique in his ability to kill a child as easily as he can kill an adult in ASoIaF --- we see LF kill Lysa with casual ease, and then subsequently planning to 'off' Sweetrobin....a child he is supposed to be protecting.

Sandor is an 'in your face' kind of guy......he is scary, he does bad things, but he is always honest about what he does and what he has done. Whereas someone like LF is more like a puppet master who does not want his strings to be seen, and will lie and smile and do 'bad things' under the guise of being 'helpful' in order to manipulate others.

I'm not saying that this alone necessarily makes LF 'worse' than Sandor........but I do think that because of this, LF is the scarier of the two in the long run.

[Lyanna Stark]

lilenadheas, on 24 May 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

  I think the problem I have with Sandor as a murderer/killer/whatever is that he enjoys it. Also, the comparison to Ned is slightly unfair. He refuses to condone the killing of children, whatever the reason. Logically, it was safer for Robert to kill Dany, but Ned refused to be a part of it. A soldier kills other soldiers (in an ideal world, we know that they rape/pillage/murder), but Sandor can kill a child as easily as he can kill a grown man. That shit is scary

Who said he wasn't scary? I don't think anybody has argued that he is not. Being scary is not the same as being a serial killer without any type of conscience or feelings of right and wrong. Sandor clearly has this since we see him regret killing Mycah and this is despite himself grandstanding and bullshitting about it several times. Ned also notes in his "Hand's Tourney" chapter in AGOT that the Hound never aimed a blow at Gregor's unprotected head while Gregor tried to get a head blow in several times. You also have the scene with the Polliver and the Tickler where he waits for them to make the first move. Ned also rates Sandor as possibly one of the most dangerous Lannister people left once Jaime leaves, but dangerous does not equal Gregor level of totally ignoring any moral, sense or reason and killing indiscriminately. A lot of people in the ASOIAF universe are dangerous. Khal Drogo, Sandor, Jaime Lannister, Mance Rayder, Stannis Baratheon and yes, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Cersei, the Queen of Thorns etc etc.

You compare Ned to Sandor, yet Ned had far more power. In the north, he is a Lord in his own right and what he decides goes. Sandor is a Lannister retaininer, he is the hired help and if someone lays a hand on the prince of the blood, that person dies, regardless of who it is. As the Prince's sworn shield, it's his job description to murder anyone who does this. Cersei and Joffrey point, and he kills. Claiming he had the choice to be like Ned in this position is ignoring his role and the power that Cersei and Joffrey held and exerted. Unless you mean to say that he ought to have deserted or refused to do his duty, which is certainly a valid point to argue, but changes the story quite a lot.

[Babeldygob]

Ok, trying to figure out how to ask this question.

Try the straight forward

Why are cliches so unbearable to some?


They're cliches for a reason goddamnit.

[Woman of War]

By SerMixalot:

Quote

Redemption for most violent people in Westeros seems to be either death or taking the black. In Sandors case, if he is at the QI, I can see it becoming a monk like character.

I see this as the only possibility for Sandor to survive the series physically - after he has done important deeds, evil or good.
I do not see him as someone's faithful and obedient follower until he is eighty, serving tea for his admired little bird as her personal guard, never forgetting the lemoncakes, no.
Sandor will most likely go out with a bang not a whimper, either fighting his undead brother,  following Sansa on an evil path or giving his life saving her, fighting the good fight  at her side. Or  reversing the roles, precisely not following Sansa into possible evil and dying for this.
No, I do not see him as cruel  pawn mindlessly following orders again, maybe not even Sansa's.
But he may nontheless survive, as some other characters may survive without finding anything close to a happy ending. And I do not think at all that Martin will construct fairytale arithmetics of survival: the worst will all be doomed and punished,  the serious sinners can only be redeemed by death, the grey characters have to redeem themselves by loads of good deeds to earn survival. No, it will be like life: some things go unpunished, many innocents will suffer from others' sins, some will have to deal with their own crimes, being haunted by their deeds for the rest of their lives.
For Sandor closure indeed may be the QI.

Edited by Woman of War, 24 May 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[Lyanna Stark]

lilenadheas, on 24 May 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

@lyannastark first of all, my apologies, I should have made it clearer. I said "hate on", a colloquial term for criticise. I do not hate Sandor. Sorry, but I can't agree with you on this. He is indeed saying before as a rather than scenario, but why does that have to mitigate his earlier declaration? "I meant to take her too" he thought about it, he decided not to, he later lamented his decision when talking to Arya.

I meant to take her too. Yes, he did. Take her with him. Remember what he actually meant to do in Kings Landing. Unless you seriously think that he went to Sansa's room with the brilliant and cunning plan to 1. rape her and 2. then offer her to come with him to wherever. I missed it too on my first read through, there's no shame in it. It's first when you connect the two scenes it makes sense.

Sort of similar to how things like Varys telling Tyrion someone else may have an interest in beheading Ned and that Joffrey got the idea from somewhere (this is in ACOK) but not until Cersei's walk of Shame chapter do you get the tidbit that post Ned's beheading Littlefinger asked to marry Sansa. Connecting the dots makes certain scenes get their real meaning, and this is certainly intentional. Same with the Hound's scene above. He does not come to her room with the intention of raping her, but with the intention of taking her out of there with him. That's what he's referring to, unless you believe that he planned on raping Sansa, which means he's really, really stupid.

Kittykatknits, on 24 May 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

. Finally, I don't think Sandor is a good man. I don't think there are good or bad men in this story. I think there are just men who have done both good and bad things. Actually, I think he's a bit of an asshole but that's just me. I also think he's rude and a complete jerk to Sansa at times. I love their scene on the rooftop together. He makes some pretty big statements and she calls him out for it. Their exchange is pure gold.

Absolutely this. GRRM himself has stated that he doesn't believe in good or bad people, he believes in people making good or bad choices. Sandor is a complete asshole a lot of the time. He starts of AGOT offering to kill Bran's wolf and offering the opinion that Bran might as well have died. Another total asshole moment is when he talks about Ned's death to Sansa and she rightfully rages at him and he absolutely deserves it. Arya's comment to him "Did you hit her with an axe too?" is also great. He also seems to be a pretty dull and broody drunk (something I can't stand in real life, I prefer funny drunks). That doesn't make him anything like his brother or Ramsay Snow, it puts him more on a level with characters like Tyrion who has got both good and bad sides to him. I'd say both Tyrion and Sandor would be good to have on your side, and bad to have on the "opposite team".

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 24 May 2012 - 02:08 PM.

[Kittykatknits]

SerMixalot, on 24 May 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

Redemption for most violent people in Westeros seems to be either death or taking the black. In Sandors case, if he is at the QI, I can see it becoming a monk like character.

I think he is still on his redemption arc, it's not done yet. I've believed for awhile not that Sandor is Sansa's Lady replacement and will end up dying for her. But, there are also times when I'm convinced that Martin must really hate me based upon what I read so what do I know.

Lyanna Stark, on 24 May 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

I meant to take her too. Yes, he did. Take her with him. Remember what he actually meant to do in Kings Landing. Unless you seriously think that he went to Sansa's room with the brilliant and cunning plan to 1. rape her and 2. then offer her to come with him to wherever. I missed it too on my first read through, there's no shame in it. It's first when you connect the two scenes it makes sense. Sort of similar to how things like Varys telling Tyrion someone else may have an interest in beheading Ned and that Joffrey got the idea from somewhere (this is in ACOK) but not until Cersei's walk of Shame chapter do you get the tidbit that post Ned's beheading Littlefinger asked to marry Sansa. Connecting the dots makes certain scenes get their real meaning, and this is certainly intentional. Same with the Hound's scene above. He does not come to her room with the intention of raping her, but with the intention of taking her out of there with him.  

I agree. It's also helpful to do a re-read just of the POVs with Sandor in them. It gives lots of great insights in to his character and helps make his lines under that tree quite a bit clearer. I thought he meant to rape her the first time I read the books as well.

Lyanna Stark, on 24 May 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

He also seems to be a pretty dull and broody drunk (something I can't stand in real life, I prefer funny drunks). That doesn't make him anything like his brother or Ramsay Snow, it puts him more on a level with characters like Tyrion who has got both good and bad sides to him. I'd say both Tyrion and Sandor would be good to have on your side, and bad to have on the "opposite team".

Even worse, he appears to be one of those dull and broody drunks that don't know to shut the hell up. That's the worst.

Completely agree on your last sentence. I'd want both of them on my team, but for very different reasons.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

If Sansa's only choices for future mates are Tyrion, Littlefinger and Sandor -- as many readers seem to think -- I vote for Sandor.  Among those three the choice of Sandor seems clear to me.  At least Sandor likes her for herself and not because she has a claim to Winterfell or reminds someone of her mother or is a suitable reward for so-and-so out living his siblings.

However, if I were in control of Westeros, I would encourage a relationship between Sansa and Podrick Payne -- which might work after I awarded him, I don't know, the Twins? which would certainly need new owners after I took the throne -- or Trystane Martell, or some other age appropriate nobleman.  Or heck, Gendry, if he stays studly.  He is a knight, after all, and he could probably give Sansa a quiet life.  (Sorry, saving Edric Dayne for Arya). Note, I say "encouraging a relationship" not arranging a marriage, because the gods know we've seen how well that works.

I like the idea of Sandor as a replacement for her direwolf.  In a way, this puts Sansa in the same position as Arya, because now they both have wolves in the Riverlands.  I fully expect Sandor to make one more appearance for one last spectacular feat of arms -- saving Sansa? killing Tyrion? killing Littlefinger?  I do not expect Sandor and Sansa to ride happily off into the sunset, and I hope with every fiber of my being that GRRM does not write a sex scene between Sansa and Sandor, because the gods know we've seen how well those work too.

[Grail King]

God I hope he doesn't do a "love" section for Sansa, I'm a guy and his sex scenes are atrocious not one turned me on not one!

But SS9- I want Sansa and Edric Dayne they are a compatible couple to me.

[Rapsie]

Yeah, if Sansa ever does have a love scene I vote for a fade to black immediately after the kiss.

[Maroucia]

Wow, great discussion everyone!
Can't believe I missed it! (damn real life!)

About the intentions that Sandor had when he went to Sansa's bedroom during the BW battle, I never thought that he wanted to rape her to begin with. The idea did cross his mind, but only after he felt rejected by Sansa. He didn't do it though, and we know that he was latter extremely tormented by the way he treated her on that night.

If Sandor had went to her room with the goal to rape her and nothing else, then why take the time to talk to her, tell her that he is going North (an appealing prospect for a child of Winterfell) and then tell her that he could keep her safe? He obliviously wanted to be her protector. He failed pitifully as he ended up being the attacker, but he thankfully didn't go through with it.

And there is no denying that he felt remorse for what he did to Sansa and that he truly felt like shit for it.

My second argument against the rape intentions is the following:
Before Sansa's return to her bedroom, Sandor waited for her hidden in her bed. He then immobilized her in a very threatening way and silenced her with his hand over her mouth. If he really wanted to fuck her bloody, then was the time to do it! Why waste precious time with a discussion when she was already in the perfect position to be raped? Why free her from his grasp (well, I know he kept her wrist in his hand, but still...) and start talking with her and explain her his plan of escape? (if you can call it a plan, of course ...)

Edited by Maroucia, 24 May 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[Buckwheat]

Girls, I completely agree that Sandor had absolutely no intentions to rape Sansa when he went to her room during the Blackwater Battle. But I would just want to ask what his intentions were at this moment.

Asking her to come with her? It seemed like something he thought of on the spot, not something he was really planning to do previously.

Or he just wanted some innocent company, somebody not connected to all the fighting anfd who would not forcde him go back into the battle in the fire, so he drunkenly, half-decided walked into her room?

I have not read the whole thread, so sorry if you have already explained it.

[Maroucia]

As I see it, Sandor really reached his breaking point during the BW battle. He decided that he couldn't take it anymore and had to get away from the Lannisters and KL, both. He didn't want to leave Sansa on her own in the Lion pit though, even more since the way that she was treated by the Lannisters was one of the reasons for his change of heart regarding his old masters.
He didn't plan to flee with her for weeks or even days, he took this decision on a whim, but he did go to Sansa's room exactly for that; he knew what he was doing, to a certain extend of course(cause he was still fu****g drunk!!!): he wanted to take her with him and get away from the damn RK and the bloody fire!

Edited by Maroucia, 24 May 2012 - 04:39 PM.

[brashcandy]

Buckwheat, on 24 May 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Girls, I completely agree that Sandor had absolutely no intentions to rape Sansa when he went to her room during the Blackwater Battle. But I would just want to ask what his intentions were at this moment. Asking her to come with her? It seemed like something he thought of on the spot, not something he was really planning to do previously. Or he just wanted some innocent company, somebody not connected to all the fighting anfd who would not forcde him go back into the battle in the fire, so he drunkenly, half-decided walked into her room? I have not read the whole thread, so sorry if you have already explained it.

Well I don't exactly think he was planning on deserting the battle so yeah, his offer to Sansa wasn't something he had a great deal of time to think about. That doesn't mean he wasn't serious about it though, as really the only wise thing to do after he said he wasn't going back to fight would have been to get the hell out of the city. The mere fact that he waited around for her to come back to her room reveals just how much he did want to save her. And he leaves his white cloak behind, the one thing that might have helped him escape easier.

Edited by brashcandy, 24 May 2012 - 04:42 PM.

[SerMixalot]

Buckwheat, on 24 May 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Girls, I completely agree that Sandor had absolutely no intentions to rape Sansa when he went to her room during the Blackwater Battle. But I would just want to ask what his intentions were at this moment. Asking her to come with her? It seemed like something he thought of on the spot, not something he was really planning to do previously. Or he just wanted some innocent company, somebody not connected to all the fighting anfd who would not forcde him go back into the battle in the fire, so he drunkenly, half-decided walked into her room? I have not read the whole thread, so sorry if you have already explained it.

I think  perhaps he did not know what he wanted from Sansa.  Perhaps it was just to stop the pain.  Sometimes that is all a person wants. But he did not know how to ask.  He could only ask for the song.  The song reprsented something to him. I just dont think he knew what it was.

[Buckwheat]

brashcandy, on 24 May 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Well I don't exactly think he was planning on deserting the battle so yeah, his offer to Sansa wasn't something he had a great deal of time to think about. That doesn't mean he wasn't serious about it though, as really the only wise thing to do after he said he wasn't going back to fight would have been to get the hell out of the city. The mere fact that he waited around for her to come back to her room reveals just how much he did want to save her. And he leaves his white cloak behind, the one thing that might have helped him escape easier.

I did not want to imply he was not serious about it, it is obvious that he is always serious about anything. It makes sense that he already came into the room and waited there for her only to ask her to go with him, I think.

He wanted to save her, but I cannot realistically picture how they could survive together, they had absolutely nowhere to go. Even Sandor alone was completely lost on the road, somewhere in the riverlands when the BWB caught him. So maybe it was better that she refused that time, she was not safe in the keep, but it would not be better in any way had she gone with him.

[Buckwheat]

SerMixalot, on 24 May 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

I think perhaps he did not know what he wanted from Sansa. Perhaps it was just to stop the pain. Sometimes that is all a person wants. But he did not know how to ask. He could only ask for the song. The song reprsented something to him. I just dont think he knew what it was.

Nah, he certainly did not know what exactly it was, because he had absolutely no experience with close human relationships. The song from Sansa represented her youth, innocence, and also their connection that he has never experienced before, I think.

[lilenadheas]

Oh Clark gable.... My heart will always be yours.

@sermixalot I just realised I said kings landing riot instead of black water battle. How embarrassing. I guess as with many things, it relies on the readers interpretation of the words. I read rapey vibes and you resd a more romantic/nobler version. Personally I think both elements are present in the narrative and that we have favoured one over the other in our interpretation. Gods, THIS is why I love GRRM. He is a spectacular writer.

I enjoyed jousting good ser

[Mumatil]

Sandor doesn't seem like the guy with a heart of gold.

Remember Micah, and his enjoyment in killing?

I'm sure there's some room for innocence lost but not much.

I'm not saying he's unredeemable, but he doesn't strike me as the guy who takes care of a pair of kittens he secretly carries in his saddle bags.