Nymeria, on 27 May 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:
Sansa is in no way in love with the damn Hound. He might be in love with her because she is kind to him, but it's not reciprocal. Sansa is a teenager who just flowered.
Remember what it was like to be that age? Everything turned you on. The only man in the realm, other than Tyrion, who tries to protect her might turn her on, but it isn't love; it's hormones. I'm guessing she is not going to have the hots for the dwarf. The reason she compares him everyone she meets to him is because he's the only who actively does anything to help her...until Littlefinger. I think it's sick to romanticize them but not any sicker than Dany/ Khal Drogo, I guess.
You mean that Sansa is infatuated with the Hound because she finds him the epitome of handsomeness or something, hence the "hormones" comment? While he is in love with her because she is nice to him?
In fact, if you want teenage hormones making her go googly eyed about somebody, it's Loras Tyrell. She thinks when Loras is escorting her to Margaery Tyrell's little meeting in ASOS Sansa I:
Sansa was finding it hard to walk and talk and think all at the same time, with Ser Loras touching her arm. She could feel the warmth of his hand through the silk.
"Lady Olenna. She is to sup with you as well."
"Oh," said Sansa. I am talking to him, and he is touching me, he's holding my arm and touching me.
At another point she thinks about running her hands over Loras' chest, so she's definitely got a teenage crush on Loras. And no wonder, he's supposed to be super pretty and all sorts of hot!! That's like condemning someone for finding Johnny Depp attractive. She thinks of Loras as an object of her affection and desires, but Sansa does not consider him a person as such, he's mostly a pretty face.
When she thinks about the Hound in the same chapter, it has a very different flavour with none of the hormonal infused infatuation that Loras gets.
Even so, she must accept. She was nothing now, the discarded daughter of a traitor and a disgraced sister of a rebel lord. She could scarcely refuse Joffrey's queen-to-be.
I wish the Hound were here.
Loras is all well and good and pretty, but when she's miserable and feels unsafe, she wishes for the Hound. She's never bedazzled with his pretty looks though (most likely because he's not pretty) nor his gallant behaviour (also missing) and although his touching her is almost always described as "gentle" or "not ungently" she never goes all ZAMAGAHD he is touching me I cannot think straight, like she does here with Loras. It seems fairly well established in the text that Sansa's "hormonal crushes" are first Joffrey and even more strongly, Loras.
Unlike most girls, Sansa really learns that prettiness is not next to godliness in a really dramatic fashion and although she's not completely dropped the notion of Loras being pretty as of AFFC, she's come to value other attributes higher.
Here she has some interesting thoughts on Ser Lothor Brune, Littlefinger's retainer:
Alayne wondered what Mya Stone made of Ser Lothor. With his squashed nose, square jaw, and nap of woolly grey hair, Brune could not be called comely, but he was not ugly either. It is a common face but an honest one… Sober, he was a quiet man, but a strong one. And Petyr says he’s loyal. He trusts him as much as he trusts anyone. Brune would be a good match for a bastard girl like Mya Stone, she thought. It might be different if her father had acknowledged her, but he never did. And Maddy says she’s no maid either.
Note that Sansa/Alayne here wonders what Mya would make of Lothor Brune, but she herself seems generally pretty appreciative of Brune's traits which are far from the prettiness and gallantry of Loras (also a nice comment about sobriety here, haha). Earlier in ASOS, she mistakes Brune for Sandor Clegane when he scares off Marillion.
"Unhand me. You forget yourself."
"Mercy. I have been singing love songs for hours. My blood is stirred. And yours, I know...there's no wench half so lusty as one bastard born. Are you wet for me?"
"I am a maiden," she protested.
"Truly? Oh, Alayne, Alayne, my fair maid, give me the gift of your innocence. You will thank the gods that you did. I'll have you singing louder than the lady Lysa."
Sansa jerked away from him, frightened. "If you don't leave me, my au- my father will hang you, Lord Petyr."
"Littlefinger?" He chuckled. "Lady Lysa loves me well, and I am Lord Robert's favourite. If your father offends me, I will destroy him with a verse." He put a hand on her breast, and squeezed. "Let's get you out of these wet clothes. You wouldn't want them ripped, I know. Come sweet lady, heed your heart -"
Sansa heard the soft sound of steel on leather. "Singer," a rough voice said, "best go, if you want to sing again." The light was dim, but she saw the faint a faint glimmer of a blade.
The singer saw it too. "Find your own wench - " The knife flashed, and he cried out. "You cut me!"
"I'll do worse, if you don't go."
And quick as that, Marillion was gone. The other remained, looming over Sansa in the darkness. "Lord Petyr said watch out for you." It was Lothor Brune's voice, she realised. Not the Hound's, no, how could it be? Of course it had to be Lothor...
Mainly here she seems to trust the Hound to have her back, unlike almost anyone else. Throughout, she's learnt the hard way to be extremely suspicious of people. She questions Margaery's motive initially, she's bewildered by Tyrion and feels she can't trust him, she wishes she had somewhere else to run in AFFC but realises she has to stay with Littlefinger. Continuously, she seems to think of Sandor Clegane as someone who, despite his wrongheaded attitude, his drunken antics and general uncouth demeanour, was on her side. All well and good so far, right?
Now, what made me go "Eh?
" the first time I read the series were the following three sections which I think indicate that Sansa may be subconsciously starting to place Sandor in a different role. Note that these are all from ASOS and AFFC, so this is well after they are separated.
In ASOS, during Lysa's and Littlefinger's wedding (which also contains the Marillion scene) we get first this bit:
Sansa went down the steps and out into the night. A light rain was falling on the remains of the feast, but the air smelt fresh and clean. The memory of her own wedding night was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all liars here, and everyone better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane Did he know that they’d killed Joffrey? Would he care? He had been the prince’s sworn shield for years.
Then Sansa returns to bed and finds Bryen's old blind dog, we have the Marillion incident happening where he claims he'll have Sansa "singing louder than the Lady Lysa", and afterwards this:
That night Sansa scarcely slept at all, but tossed and turned just as she had aboard the Merling King. She dreamt of Joffrey dying, but as he clawed her at his throat and the blood ran down her fingers she saw with horror that it was her brother Robb. And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he crawled into bed his face was scarred only on one side. “I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. “I wish you were Lady,” she said.
The sequence of events are written in such a way as to definitely leave a lasting impression that Sansa's view of Sandor is changing in his absence.
Then in AFFC, we get:
It was a little boy’s kiss, and clumsy. Everything Robert Arryn did was clumsy. If I close my eyes I can pretend he is the Knight of Flowers. Ser Loras had given Sansa Stark a red rose once, but he had never kissed her … and no Tyrell would ever kiss Alayne Stone. Pretty as she was, she had been born on the wrong side of the blanket.
As the boy’s lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt when his cruel mouth pressed down on her. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.
It made no matter. That day was done and so was Sansa.
So again we have Loras popping up, but he disappears fairly quickly, and Sansa is very aware of that Loras/The Tyrells would never care for Sansa-the-person, but what she actually thinks of, although he remains unnamed is Sandor (even more interestingly, he never actually kissed her, but she seems to remember it really, really vividly).
Coincidence? Perhaps. But in that case, this next bit with Sansa talking to Myranda Royce is definitely not, and unless there's been a shift in how Sansa views Sandor, there is simply no explanation for this that I can think of
"I do need another husband, I had one once, but I killed him."
"You did?" Alayne said, shocked.
"Oh yes. He died on top of me. In me, if truth be told. You do know what goes on in a marriage bed, I hope?"
She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he'd kissed her, and gave a nod.
Tyrion is logical here, as she is in fact married to him and has been faced with him in the marriage bed, but why does she think of Sandor Clegane in conjunction with marriage beds?
Sure, I guess people could still argue that Sansa has some sort of weird infatuation but in fact whatever it is she feels for him seems to be evolving slowly and hardly seems like teenage hormonal infatuation to me, but something that's nearly unconscious to her at this time. While you could argue that the Hound has some of the traits of the very attractive guys (he's tall and athletic) he's also not popular or pretty unlike Loras. While I am sure there are guys around who are less attractive than the Hound, he's definitely a bit of a hard sell due to his disfigured face and general attitude problems and would in no way qualify as a first or even tenth choice when it comes to teenage crush object.
As for Sandor's feelings on the subject, he certainly appreciates her and find her pretty and regrets not doing more for her, but does he love her? I'm not sure this can be stated, nor that he CAN in the mental state he is in (I also think it's indicated at least once that he finds her too young to consider in that context). The Elder Brother states in his speech about the Hound on the QI that he loved nobody and was loved by nobody, although I suppose we can possibly consider that to be about the Hound as an aspect of Sandor's persona. But as it stands, it seems more like a "setting the stage" sort of thing for the future.
Edited by Lyanna Stark, 27 May 2012 - 10:12 AM.