483 replies to this topic

[SerMixalot]

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

But Sandors whole arc with Sansa is about subverting and reconfiguring aspects of herself? His whole spiel is about stripping her of her idealistic naivety. that's all he does. Sandor tries to molds Sansa too. I know you could say its because he just wants to protect her from the Lannisters, but i think that is romantizing it a bit. If Petyr is recreating Cat, (which i'm not contesting, that relationship is all kinds of effed up), then cant it be said that Sandor is trying to recreate himself?

man you're toiugh on the hound

[lilenadheas]

SerMixalot, on 23 May 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

I honestly dont know, but I suspect you have an answer!

haha I wish I did! I find it fascinating, and it will be many re-reads before I can begin to understand the subtle nuances of their relationship and motivations for each exchange

[Raksha the Demon]

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

maybe it is somewhere in between? the reader knows that Ned did not in fact relish killing, but Sandor could have had many reasons for saying it. 1) honestly believing that killing is the greatest feeling ever, and projecting that onto others, then announcing this factually inaccurate but truly believed theory to Sansa 2)Not believing that others feel this way and lying to Sansa about her father and himself (but WHY?) 3)not believing it himself, and just saying it for shits and giggles I think the really interesting thing to consider in this exchange is why he is saying it at all. Is he just trying to scare and horrify her? Did he have an overaching plan involving her social/political education?

I do think that Sandor believes that all knights and warriors, Ned Stark included, enjoy killing.  Sandor has a great reservoir of anger inside him; and killing is one way he vents that anger.  He has also seen, as a Lannister sword, knights and other warriors commit atrocities in battle; and might have done some himself.  Sandor's own life has been unhappy since he was six years old.  His father did not stick up for him; instead, his father lied and continued to educate Gregor, and Gregor  was anointed a knight by the beloved Prince Rhaegar - Gregor, who was a terribly vicious and cruel person, even as a boy, and who burned and scarred Sandor.  There's an implication that Gregor killed Sandor's younger sister, possibly (can't remember) their father as well, not to mention the mysterious fates of Gregor's wives - the Cleganes were a haunted, dysfunctional family.  Sandor came out of that family thinking perhaps that women were victims who needed power or protection or both or they would be harmed, and that the men were liars and/or brutes.  

But Ned Stark was never a brute; never killed for the love of it; and came from a family where he and his siblings were loved by their father, where his older brother died trying to save their father.  I don't think Sandor can conceive that Ned Stark would not enjoy killing others; that Ned was happy to lay down his sword and raise a family of children he loved with a wife he loved, a family he tried to protect.  From the age of six, Sandor knew a world broken and colored with fire, with pain.  Until she was eleven, Sansa knew a world that was gentle and colored with love, with pretty dreams.   It's amazing, and a tribute to both characters, that Sandor and Sansa can relate to each other at all, much less reach out to each other in any way...

[lilenadheas]

SerMixalot, on 23 May 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

man you're toiugh on the hound

Shockingly, i actually like the hound, I just don't ship San/San, and like to offer alternative viewpoints. playing devil's advocate can be very fun

[Smartell]

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

just to throw a spanner in the works, now consider that Littlefinger was also one of the most idealistic characters we have read about in his youth. I have always noticed these three characters as sharing certain characteristics. Littlefinger and Sandor are both attracted to Sansa sexually, she thinks she has kissed both of them, and both men have helped her navigate through the dangerous circumstances she has been in. I guess my point is, why is Sandor favoured over Petyr? in my mind they both have very similar intentions toward Sansa at certain parts of the story. why is one exonerated and the other condemned?

What differentiates Petyr from Sandor in my mind is the fact that Sandor's intentions toward her are more honourable (for lack of a better word). I don't think it's entirely selfless when he tries to guide her along, but compared to how I felt reading her interactions with Petyr, he's much less... creepy.
Sandor seems to see Sansa for who she is, while Petyr sees her primarily as Catelyn's daughter, and Petyr's kindnesses all seem to have strings attached.

[SerMixalot]

true dat and FWIW i am learning a thing or 3 ont his thread

[brashcandy]

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

But Sandors whole arc with Sansa is about subverting and reconfiguring aspects of herself? His whole spiel is about stripping her of her idealistic naivety. that's all he does. Sandor tries to molds Sansa too. I know you could say its because he just wants to protect her from the Lannisters, but i think that is romantizing it a bit.

If Petyr is recreating Cat, (which i'm not contesting, that relationship is all kinds of effed up), then cant it be said that Sandor is trying to recreate himself?

No. Sandor really isn't trying to "mold" her, and he's definitely not trying to recreate a version of himself. As much as he wants Sansa to wake up and see the harsh reality around her, there's a part of him that's continually disturbed by the treatment she suffers and he actively tries to alleviate and mitigate a lot of the pain she endures. This is all what leads him to want to rescue her on the night of the Blackwater. Littlefinger on the other hand, what's he doing is definitely trying to mold someone into his image. He "becomes" her father, tells her she needs to be Alayne Stone in her heart, and encourages her to play the game of thrones. I'm not even going to touch the blatant sexual exploitation.

Edited by brashcandy, 23 May 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[Dragonstar]

Ugh yeah, San San is a bit creepy. I mean I know Westeros standards of age of consent are way different, but Sansa is like what.. 13 when Sandor falls for her.

If she were older, it would fall into the typical romance trope - beautiful princes thought she liked the pretty boy but actually loved the disfigured knight of low birth and high muscle mass quotient. At her age though, it's just plain creepy - Westeros or no. It's not even in the Jorah/Dany/Barely Legal category.

[lilenadheas]

Smartell, on 23 May 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

What differentiates Petyr from Sandor in my mind is the fact that Sandor's intentions toward her are more honourable (for lack of a better word). I don't think it's entirely selfless when he tries to guide her along, but compared to how I felt reading her interactions with Petyr, he's much less... creepy.
Sandor seems to see Sansa for who she is, while Petyr sees her primarily as Catelyn's daughter, and Petyr's kindnesses all seem to have strings attached.

the beauty of Sansa's story is that she is in a constant state of flux. i read a comment a while back on another thread that wondered at how Sandor would react to Sansa if they ever did meet again and she had become a legitimate player, not his little bird. Its purely conjecture of course, but somehow I dont think he would be pleased, and that is a bit creepy in my view.

I think sandor saw her for who she was, and Petyr see's what she could become.

Just to reiterate, i do not think Sansa should end up with Littlefinger or anything like that, just pointing out some niggles i have with the way San/San is viewed.

[SerMixalot]

I think sansa will end up turning the tables on LF

[lilenadheas]

brashcandy, on 23 May 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

No. Sandor really isn't trying to "mold" her, and he's definitely not trying to recreate a version of himself. As much as he wants Sansa to wake up and see the harsh reality around her, there's a part of him that's continually disturbed by the treatment she suffers and he actively tries to alleviate and mitigate a lot of the pain she endures. This is all what leads him to want to rescue her on the night of the Blackwater. Littlefinger on the other hand, what's he doing is definitely trying to mold someone into his image. He "becomes" her father, tells her she needs to be Alayne Stone in her heart, and encourages her to play the game of thrones. I'm not even going to touch the blatant sexual exploitation.

Sandor is not an evil guy, and I'm not trying to blacken his name forever, but he wanted to rape and rescue her the night of Blackwater. I'm sorry, I just can't get past that. there are too many disturbing paradoxes in his character to make me want this ship, but i can appreciate that he does to a great deal of good on Sansa's behalf, and not for purely selfish reasons, as Petyr does

[brashcandy]

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

the beauty of Sansa's story is that she is in a constant state of flux. i read a comment a while back on another thread that wondered at how Sandor would react to Sansa if they ever did meet again and she had become a legitimate player, not his little bird. Its purely conjecture of course, but somehow I dont think he would be pleased, and that is a bit creepy in my view.

Please expand for clarity. The only reason I can think he wouldn't be pleased is if he felt she was continuing to be exploited by others, and had become a hardened, embittered player of the game. However, based on his reaction when he hears she's escaped the Lannisters, I'd say he'd definitely appreciate her having a lot more power and autonomy in her life.

[brashcandy]

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Sandor is not an evil guy, and I'm not trying to blacken his name forever, but he wanted to rape and rescue her the night of Blackwater. I'm sorry, I just can't get past that. there are too many disturbing paradoxes in his character to make me want this ship, but i can appreciate that he does to a great deal of good on Sansa's behalf, and not for purely selfish reasons, as Petyr does

Sorry, but this reading isn't strictly correct. He didn't want to rape and rescue her that night. He went there with the intention of rescuing her, but then felt rejected and lashed out. Would he have raped her? We can't really say, but we do know he didn't, and that he walked away and was ashamed of his behaviour.

Edited by brashcandy, 23 May 2012 - 09:54 PM.

[SerMixalot]

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Sandor is not an evil guy, and I'm not trying to blacken his name forever, but he wanted to rape and rescue her the night of Blackwater. I'm sorry, I just can't get past that. there are too many disturbing paradoxes in his character to make me want this ship, but i can appreciate that he does to a great deal of good on Sansa's behalf, and not for purely selfish reasons, as Petyr does

rape?

I never got that fromthe scene.  He wanted a song from her. is that symbollic of rape?  or did he simply want love and affection? I think that is a big leap to rape.

[lilenadheas]

brashcandy, on 23 May 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

Please expand for clarity. The only reason I can think he wouldn't be pleased is if he felt she was continuing to be exploited by others, and had become a hardened, embittered player of the game. However, based on his reaction when he hears she's escaped the Lannisters, I'd say he'd definitely appreciate her having a lot more power and autonomy in her life.

haha crap, I've been called out. I'll have to expand in the morning (if you're still interested), as it is very late where I am. need my beauty sleep.

Very quickly - Sandor  hates the hypocrisy of the entire system, if Sansa were to become a player, she would be engaging in the deceptions and moral inconsistencies that catagorize the world he loathes, and become and active participant rather than an innocent victim.

sorry if i'm not making sense, sleep deprived delirium i guess

[lilenadheas]

SerMixalot, on 23 May 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

rape? I never got that fromthe scene. He wanted a song from her. is that symbollic of rape? or did he simply want love and affection? I think that is a big leap to rape.

He says to Arya later; "I should have fucked her bloody". it was definitely implied

[SerMixalot]

she never even positively rejected leaving with him, she just shrunk away in terror sang the prayer and he left

[Sand11751]

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

But Sandors whole arc with Sansa is about subverting and reconfiguring aspects of herself? His whole spiel is about stripping her of her idealistic naivety. that's all he does. Sandor tries to molds Sansa too. I know you could say its because he just wants to protect her from the Lannisters, but i think that is romantizing it a bit.

If Petyr is recreating Cat, (which i'm not contesting, that relationship is all kinds of effed up), then cant it be said that Sandor is trying to recreate himself?

Subvert - interesting idea, but for what purpose? His words to her about how golden boy wants her to fear AND love him really stuck in my mind. You're right, Sandor's trying to mold her too, into someone who can survive under Joffrey's brutal terms. He's not doing it for his selfish purpose. Not the same as LF.

I also don't think Sandor's attempts with Sansa had anything to do with changing himself. When she starts ascribing all her lords and sers to him just because he said one tolerable thing to her, he shuts her down, like "I'm not the one." What's so interesting about that is then despite turning from her courtesies, he starts seeking this girl out, being everywhere she is. Why? She humanizes him, reminds him that life is not all brutality and rage, no matter how much he disdains her for it.

I'll be candid and admit I still have a hard time shipping them romantically as they were up to Blackwater. He's said some pretty horrible things to her, even if they were things she needed to hear. Also, sorry, but the man's more than twice her age and in my view, she's still a child even if not by Westerosi standards. Now if Martin could just age her up a few years over the next books, yeah, I'd love me some dark-haired, gray-eyed babies for Sansa. Say what you will of Sandor's brutal honesty, it's done a lot to awaken Sansa the survivor, a person who I believe will eventually take LF on his own terms.

[SerMixalot]

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

He says to Arya later; "I should have fucked her bloody". it was definitely implied

ahh rereading sos now so will look for it.  though that could just be angry regret for how things were left and abandoning her, but I see your point

[lilenadheas]

brashcandy, on 23 May 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

Sorry, but this reading isn't strictly correct. He didn't want to rape and rescue her that night. He went there with the intention of rescuing her, but then felt rejected and lashed out. Would he have raped her? We can't really say, but we do know he didn't, and that he walked away and was ashamed of his behaviour.

i dont really see how my reading is wrong? it is implicitly implied. We know he contemplated it? Dont we? that he wanted to but refrained. So did Tyrion on their wedding night, doesn't make him a rapist, but it does make me uncomfortable. thats all. Damn it, I have to go to bed!

my apologises, i see that your wording was that it wasnt "strictly correct", not wrong.

Edited by lilenadheas, 23 May 2012 - 10:07 PM.