483 replies to this topic

[brashcandy]

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

haha crap, I've been called out. I'll have to expand in the morning (if you're still interested), as it is very late where I am. need my beauty sleep. Very quickly - Sandor hates the hypocrisy of the entire system, if Sansa were to become a player, she would be engaging in the deceptions and moral inconsistencies that catagorize the world he loathes, and become and active participant rather than an innocent victim. sorry if i'm not making sense, sleep deprived delirium i guess

I understand the point you're making, but I think you're seeing Sandor a bit too starkly here. He would, I believe, appreciate that in order to survive in such a world, Sansa would have to lie and play a few games. He is the one who backed her up on two distinct occasions by telling lies for her, and he was willing to commit treason to get her out of KL.

Enjoy your rest, btw. Battles can always wait

[SerMixalot]

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

i dont really see how my reading is wrong? it is implicitly implied. We know he contemplated it? Dont we? that he wanted to but refrained. So did Tyrion on their wedding night, doesn't make him a rapist, but it does make me uncomfortable. thats all. Damn it, I have to go to bed!

i just reread it and it didnt seem implied though there was mention of sansa thinking he was going to kiss her.

it may be there, i grant u that

it may just be sandor was seekign something from her at that moment something symbolized by a song and the reader is free to interpret-sex, love, understanding

Now go to bed

[Valkyrja]

brashcandy, on 23 May 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

I understand the point you're making, but I think you're seeing Sandor a bit too starkly here. He would, I believe, appreciate that in order to survive in such a world, Sansa would have to lie and play a few games. He is the one who backed her up on two distinct occasions by telling lies for her, and he was willing to commit treason to get her out of KL.

Agreed. Sandor seemed positively delighted when he thought she'd managed to escape on her own:

'"The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp's head and flew off." ~ Sandor Clegane, ASoS

He could not have realistically thought she'd have managed to escape King's Landing without a great deal of lying and subterfuge....

[Jolene Brown]

I think he is exaggerating a bit to Arya, because he is enraged to find out that Tyrion has married her.  It's hyperbole, although certainly vastly inappropriate hyperbole.

[brashcandy]

Valkyrja, on 23 May 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

Agreed. Sandor seemed positively delighted when he thought she'd managed to escape on her own: '"The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp's head and flew off." ~ Sandor Clegane, ASoS He could not have realistically thought she'd have managed to escape King's Landing without a great deal of lying and subterfuge....

It's really interesting how Sandor ended up becoming a gameplayer of sorts for Sansa. Telling lies, and then his ambiguous statement about Robb needing him.

[Woman of War]

I think the OP did not only ask questions about the nature of the  connection between Sandor and Sansa. He as well wanted to know where the fascination of interpreting the relationship between these two characters lies for readers.

So we indeed have two aspects to answer, that are difficult to separate in the debate:
- Why do many readers choose to explore the "San/San" relationship under romantic aspects, why exactly this relationship in the books, why not another one, what does assuming a special relationship trigger in us modern readers? What do these two concerned characters appeal to in us today people?
And
- as immanent debate, what exactly is the nature of that relationship and how is it a different quality from other
relationship in the books?

So what does  Sandor/Sansa have to offer to us modern readers? I guess it is a quasi natural or  deeply acquired instinct to look out for "romantic" aspects when following a story. We want complete arcs, we want closure and we want to know "how it ends", the stable, peaceful and satisfying government, the longterm relationship. We are looking for it and consciously perceive it when Martin refuses to fulfil the expectations we have learned as readers. Even the most gritty thiller is expected to have something to satisfy the readers in order to sell and the unhappy ending has to be balanced by extremely good writing, at least for me.

So looking for a love story is natural, but why this one? Why do especially many women find the relationship between a multiple murderer and an inexperienced naive thirteen year old so very intriguing? Why do they not choose an older female character, a more worldwise and less defenseless heroine, with a sex life already existing? Why not the very adult beauty and beast story between Jaime (inner beast) and Brienne (inner beauty) ? Because a heroine inevitably has to be beautiful to make her worth of readers' consideration as object of fandom shipping and identification?
Sansa as character is presented as a white sheet at the beginning of the story where the author with all cruelty scratches the scars of events in, there is not very much there at the beginning of the books, she is formed by the progress of the books. This is imo the reason why her POV'S are soo very well written and so much more interesting than the character herself. At the same time readers can choose  what to project onto this character, Sansa can be all of us, in her naiveté at the beginning we can see Martinworld through her eyes, while she is not understanding a lot, we gaet the informations indirectly presented and are invited to draw our own conclusions. It's the Forrest Gump writing trick. And we as readers grow with Sansa, the books are not only her coming of age, they are ours as readers as well. We are subtly introduced to the cruelty of Martinworld, culminating in Ned's beheading, being further disillusioned, learning about scheming......Sansa has been especially created by Martin as identification object, as easy story access. We all can be Sansa.

I, as a woman, have though some problems with her character, concerning the emphasis on her helplessness and passivety, she is simply very different from me at her age. And the contrast between the two sisters  is wonderfully done. That's maybe only me but a more seriously problematic topic is the fixture on choosing a so very explicitely virginal heroine for identification ( not that I would want a thirteen year old having sex, I HATE child porn and the idea of abusing kids), here it is maybe again the blank sheet readers find easy access to for their projections - and it may be Martin clinging to the topic good (nonsexual) girl - bad ( experienced ) girl. So readers and the author find a common interest in having the cliché virginal heroine with more than believable plot armour against sexual abuse and not the, hopefully older, heroine who is master of her sex life.

Now to Sandor: I must emphazise here that I believe Sandor to be a truly interesting character, his childhod scars, his issues with violence, all that........ Everything has been discussed in these forums.
Beauty and the beast? What is the promise in a topic like that for (female) readers? It is maybe the wish for a protecting hero who is exclusively a good guy to you while showing his aggressive side to the rest of the world, thus contrasting with the chivalrous hero who is supposed to be just and helpful with everyone, so per definitionem he is not yours alone, he has obligations to the whole world.   The beast hero is exclusively your own, you don't have to share him since nobody sees his other side which is a secret between you and him. You have private access to the positive parts of his soul, you as woman are the chosen one to reform, to redeem him and this gives you power over a dangerous beast. Importance to the powerless, Sansa's personal Hound, better than a direwolf.
You see the other side of this: in RL the women who feel the resposibitlity the help the villain, to tame their personal beast, to take the task to reform an alcoholic or wife beater are those who may end up  as the  most likely victims of domestic violence since they are the ones who are never able to seek help for themselves, to go to the police and to turn their back on the abuser.
Though being so very hateful against child abusers I have to defend pedosexuals here to a very certain degree.
First I think that a sexual attraction of Sandor to Sansa is not something I hate in these books. On the contrary, this  existing desire adds to that complex literary  character and is an interesting invention by Martin. Though I think Sansor's sexual longing for Sansa is not mainly determined by her being physically young but by being naive and inexperienced. He does not want to break her body because she is nearly a child, he wants to break open her soul, he wants to have part of something he lost when he was six. Destroying it in the act while being verbally and physically  abusive and only just refraining from being a rapist at the last moment.
There again the aspect of exclusivity: the purity Sandor has lost forever, he thinks to find that in Sansa, and only in Sansa of all people around. And while knowing he can never get it and purity is doomed he tries to destroy it in Sansa, against better knowing, because this is exactly what he desires in her. If he ever got what he desires he would destroy it in the action. I think Sandor knows this.
And so I think Sandor is not a typical pedosexual though craving for childlike innocence. And apart from that, and though having my own ugly experiences when I was eleven ( I WON, the abuser lost because I spoke up publicly and defended myself with the help of my mother. I was very proud of it back then, it made me stronger having won, not ashamed at all), a pedosexual is a child abusing perpetrator only as soon as he shows any - internet, photgrapy, peeping tom, threads or direct violence or whatever -  activity in this direction. As long as a pedosexually oreinted person is aware of the danger he or she presents and seeks help he or she deserves not society's moral condemnation but support. So discussing here about "creepy desires" should be carefully separated from assailing actions against young people - and from giving the debate a prudery turn of sex as sin. ( though Sandor had a knife at Sansa's throat and threatened to rape her and later to rip her heart out)
Sandor's desire for Sansa thus personifies the best but as well the most dangerous and destructive of his personality and him somehow knowing this makes the tragic story hugely intriguing. There is nothing to romanticize in it, certainly not material for the erotic identification of fangirls, there is an enormousd darma and inner force in it, potential to doom both characters, to make them go down together, the erotic aspect is no more than a sidenote here.
Thinking about future plot developments, immanently in the books:
In post # 49 it was metioned:

Quote

Sandor sees (in Sansa) what she is, Petyr what she may become

Meaning Petyr and Sandor see Sansa under a totally different perspective and I would definitely not see that Sandor's viewpoint has to be more becoming for Sansa's safety  than Baelish's. Let's not forget that once little Petyr was the same Innocent and brave boy Sandor has been, only to be brutally disillusioned as well, but drawing very different conclusions for his further life. Sansa may become the heroine actively living her sexuality and using it to get what she wants, may it serve goals perceived as morally good or morally evil by us readers, depending on our likes and our favorite characters. Using her beauty as a weapon would be a fine change for Sansa since until now it only has been her weakness, making her the object of unwanted sexual attention or serving as extra nice parcel wrapping for political claims. I am not willing to morally condemn a female character for making use of her sexuality as weapon, seeing this as somewhat more immoral as slitting throats and chopping off heads. When the man has a knife and the woman has her c..t, use it, I am with you Cersei! ( see, I finally managed to mention my third favorite character in this post! )Though being the player many readers want Sansa to be may finally condemn her in Sandor's eyes, making him destroy her.
Or he may be her personal savior, sacrificing himself for her, Martin knows. Most posters agree here that a "happy ending" as in happily ever after between those two characters is very unlikely.

[Woman of War]

Damn, no editing, so many spelling and language errors and incorrect quotation, sorry Lilenadheas

[Lyanna Stark]

Smartell, on 23 May 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

What differentiates Petyr from Sandor in my mind is the fact that Sandor's intentions toward her are more honourable (for lack of a better word). I don't think it's entirely selfless when he tries to guide her along, but compared to how I felt reading her interactions with Petyr, he's much less... creepy. Sandor seems to see Sansa for who she is, while Petyr sees her primarily as Catelyn's daughter, and Petyr's kindnesses all seem to have strings attached.

But this is where you are mostly wrong, because despite a lot of smacktalk and grandstanding, his actions wrt Sansa are selfless. Twice he lies for her to save her from possible beatings and Joffrey's/Cersei's wrath and he wades into the riot to fetch her back. He also doesn't need to tell her anything about how to handle Joffrey, nor does he have to throw her his cloak after she has been beaten by Ser Boros. All of these things are selfless acts. He gains nothing from them. These things are not included as something he needs to do in his line of work. He owes Sansa no allegiance. In fact, some of the things (the lying) goes explicitly against what he's hired to do and is actually treasonous actions visavi the Lannisters. To interpret these actions as anything but selfless doesn't make any sense. Even his botched attempt at offering her a way out of Kings Landing is at its root selfless. He didn't have to offer her his protection or to bring her with him out of there. Of course, he went about it in almost the most cackhanded, socially inept and offensive way possible, but stripping away the bad behaviour, the offering itself is selfless and also another treasonous action, to boot. Deserting is on its own pretty bad and probably means at least imprisonment and possibly a death sentence if someone can be bothered to look for him, but deserting with the King's betrothed in tow ranks far higher on the badness scale and would probably have caused a huge mobilising of search parties and levered death sentence, rewards for bringing him/them in etc. so a much higher level of personal danger that he again did not have to get into. There was very little potential gain for himself in it and a whole lot of danger.

Petyr Baelish on the other hand is completely selfish. Everything he does, he does for himself. Sansa recognises this when she thinks about that Lord Littlefinger never lifted his little finger to help her in Kings Landing, but he's happy enough to spirit her away and pretend to be a mixture of her father and her lover. She's supposed to both act the daughter he never had by Cat, and also be ersatz Cat so LF can replay his lost youth. LF doesn't care for Sansa, or what she wants, as long as he gets what he wants. In addition to this, Littlefinger also had a hand in planning the betrayal of Sansa's own father in Kings Landing, he told Tywin of the Tyrell plot to spirit Sansa away from Kings Landing, he asked Cersei to marry Sansa after Ned's beheading (this gem is hidden in Cersei's walk of shame chapter) and if you add that fact to Varys telling Tyrion that someone else suggested to Joffrey that Ned should be beheaded and not sent to the Wall, it seems obvious Littlefinger was actually behind Ned's death too. All for very, very selfish reasons.

The Hound might be a mean terminator style killing machine, but Littlefinger is the more dangerous person due to his ruthless machinations and planned murders. As we see in Arya's chapter at the Inn of the Crossroad, Sandor hoped Polliver and the Tickler would do something stupid so he could kill them, but he would not attack them unprovoked. Jaime Lannister thinks that the massacre at Saltpans does not seem to be his style, but more Gregor's, meaning we can infer Sandor has standards and won't kill people willy nilly where men like Gregor, Amory Lorch and indeed Littlefinger himself have none of these issues with offing people for whatever reason they can think up.

[Lyanna Stark]

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Sandor is not an evil guy, and I'm not trying to blacken his name forever, but he wanted to rape and rescue her the night of Blackwater. I'm sorry, I just can't get past that. there are too many disturbing paradoxes in his character to make me want this ship, but i can appreciate that he does to a great deal of good on Sansa's behalf, and not for purely selfish reasons, as Petyr does

Even if he was drunk and befuddled, I don't think anyone would concoct an idea where the first step of the plan is rape and the second rescue. That would be beyond stupid. If you mean that her rejection sparked his anger and made him consider it, very possible, but it seems highly unlikely it was part of the original plan (such as it were) for the above reasons.

Also, as I posted above, unless you count demanding a song, he is never selfish with Sansa, ever. He gains nothing from what he does for her. He is rude, crude, socially inept, drunk, sometimes vulgar almost always abrasive, but not selfish.

[Winter's Knight]

SanSan reminds me so much of Lucy and Sidney in a Tale of Two Cities:

Quote

"If it had been possible, Miss Manette, that you could have returned the love of the man you see before yourself—flung away, wasted, drunken, poor creature of misuse as you know him to be—he would have been conscious this day and hour, in spite of his happiness, that he would bring you to misery, bring you to sorrow and repentance, blight you, disgrace you, pull you down with him. I know very well that you can have no tenderness for me; I ask for none; I am even thankful that it cannot be."

"Without it, can I not save you, Mr. Carton? Can I not recall you—forgive me again!—to a better course? Can I in no way repay your confidence? I know this is a confidence," she modestly said, after a little hesitation, and in earnest tears, "I know you would say this to no one else. Can I turn it to no good account for yourself, Mr. Carton?"

He shook his head."To none. No, Miss Manette, to none. If you will hear me through a very little more, all you can ever do for me is done. I wish you to know that you have been the last dream of my soul. In my degradation I have not been so degraded but that the sight of you with your father, and of this home made such a home by you, has stirred old shadows that I thought had died out of me. Since I knew you, I have been troubled by a remorse that I thought would never reproach me again, and have heard whispers from old voices impelling me upward, that I thought were silent for ever. I have had unformed ideas of striving afresh, beginning anew, shaking off sloth and sensuality, and fighting out the abandoned fight. A dream, all a dream, that ends in nothing, and leaves the sleeper where he lay down, but I wish you to know that you inspired it."

[Grail King]

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

just to throw a spanner in the works, now consider that Littlefinger was also one of the most idealistic characters we have read about in his youth. I have always noticed these three characters as sharing certain characteristics. Littlefinger and Sandor are both attracted to Sansa sexually, she thinks she has kissed both of them, and both men have helped her navigate through the dangerous circumstances she has been in. I guess my point is, why is Sandor favoured over Petyr? in my mind they both have very similar intentions toward Sansa at certain parts of the story. why is one exonerated and the other condemned?

Sandor is more honest, brutally so, to LF it's a game, a contest and a revenge on what he perceived as a wrong done to him by others.

Sandor at no time expressed a need or want for Sansa's claim, he somehow took pity on her for the plight she got into based on her learning at home and he actually represents the other half of a dad that most girls don't see, a man who is brutal due to necessity of his world doing things that have to be done despite the fact most dads would hate to do it.

LF is extremely smart but a snake in mans clothing with no empathy for people he deems below him.

[Ser Sweets]

Holy crap. So many of the replies to this thread were in and of themselves a fantastic read, Woman of War's being one of the ones that truly stunned me. Regardless;

SerMixalot, on 23 May 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

But why would sansa be attracted to a manlike Sandor, he represents so little of what she was raised to love, honor, knighthood, gallantry. i just dont get it. is it that women dont really know what they want? that they get attracted to thing that they were taught were bad? perhaps it is the insight Sandor has into who her father really was (loving killing for instance)

SerMixalot, on 23 May 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

hmmmm i guess i was confused about thinking people thought of it as a romantic relationship, but perhaps sandor represents a father figure correcting her world view, but that doesnt explain the explicit sexuality of hte relationship, the song, the unkiss, the cloak. so there clearly is a sexual aspect to it. is there something to the concept of a young woman attracted to that level of brutality and strength? protection, empowerment, rebellion

I don't think you're trying to convey this message, but over the course of a few of your posts it kind of seems like you're a.) suggesting that all fans, sexually oriented or otherwise, of San/San are women and that b.) if they are, they automatically identify with Sansa.

That might, instead, just be the original aim of your post; curiosity towards what readers who do fit into those categories. But I doubt even half of the posters who replied fit into both of those categories.

I think it's worth pointing out that I am neither a woman, nor do I identify with Sansa. My love for the SanSan relationship is because I feel Sandor is something that Sansa benefits from. Not women as a whole, but Sansa. I don't think that Asha, Cersei, Margaery or Dany would benefit from Sandor's affection -- and they're all women, right? But they have different personalities. Liking SanSan doesn't automaticallly make you a doe-eyed fangirl reaching out for a Beauty and the Beast romance.


Putting that aside, I was thrilled to finally see a SanSan post around, since I'm guessing it's a topic that's been discussed to death in the past and hasn't been brought up again recently. I think the overall consensus of this thread has been roughly concluded that Sansa and Sandor shouldn't, at least in the immediate future, enter into any kind of romance. Based on Westerosi age expectations, I actually didn't find the age gap disturbing by itself, but Woman of War's point that Sandor is not stable enough to maintain a relationship without destroying what he endeavours to protect is my concern.
I would love to see Sandor more fully fulfil his speculated role as a replacement for Lady, however; maybe years down the line after camaraderie to one another, Sansa's good influence on Sandor could potentially effect him enough that a romance could be suited to both of them. Maybe.
But much like how I feel with Brienne and Jaime, my appeal to their relationship isn't based on the romance, but on the bond. In this case Sandor's sexual feelings are unavoidable as a reader, but it's worth noting that due to his stifled social life it is quite possible that Sandor's understanding of 'romance' is akin to a boy the age of (or younger than) Sansa herself.

EDIT: Too many 'however's. :V

Edited by Pelki, 24 May 2012 - 06:16 AM.

[Rapsie]

To answer the OP from my own perspective, Sansa and Sandor (along with Stannis and Davos) are my favourite characters in the series.

Sandor however is basically an asshole, but with redeeming features such as not beating Sansa and trying to give her advice and protect her. Also he has either been in or mentioned in her chapters since the first one in AGOT. He contrasts to the other characters because he doesn't have the flowery court language, that covers others whose actions are the same or worse than his own. To be honest in AGOT and ACOK I was interested by their dynamic, but didn't really like it as a potential romantic thing  until ASOS where they both think or mention each other in practically every chapter they are in. It is the fact that Sansa likes him that appeals.

Sandor's rescuing of Arya and the illustration that in most cases his bark is worse than his bite was also interesting, as was Thoros of Myr's view of his fractured nobility. His time on the QI seems to be a sort of therapy to exorcise the worst of his demons. Saying that if he does return to the story, I doubt he will have turned into Prince Charming. He was however consumed with guilt over the incidents towards Sansa (including his own). The fucked her bloody line also contained the wanting to rip her heart out and featured a "before" in terms of Tyrion: in other words I might say "I should have taken your eyes out with hot pincers before letting you watch that awful scene with Robb and Talissa, but that doesn't mean I wanted to. Therefore I thought Sandor was saying rape and death would be better than being married to Tyrion.

Sansa on the other hand seems to have a connection to Sandor and although he scares her, she doesn't think he'll ever hurt her. She often unconsciously compares him to any man she meets and then of course there is the Unkiss. While I don't think she has developed conscious feelings for him in a romantic way, she misses the protection he offered her and she felt safe around him. The sad thing is she has been so manipulated in KL that she now has a slightly warped sense of what is kind behaviour towards her. Her views on how she will be treated by others and her view that she is nothing but a "claim" in relationship terms and her awful marriage have really soured her perspective on love and crippled her hopes.

So it is a potential romance if they meet again, but a bittersweet one.  

Also in the books there is a ton of foreshadowing from the death of Lady onwards regarding the two of them. (This cropped up a lot in the Sansa Pawn to Player threads).

As for the age thing. It bothers me, but GRRM himself has stated that he wished he'd made the characters older. Also every guy she meets seems to have the hots for Sansa. After all a month after Sandor left, Tyrion was attempting to sleep with her. I think part of the age mistake also boils down to when the books were first written. Back in 1996 medieval history still did not go into the subject of women's lives in the depth it has recently abd the ability to source books was limited due to the infancy of the internet. While it is true that some aristocratic girls in medieval times were married at 12 and had children soon after, these case were not the norm. Most girls got married at 15 or older and those who married younger than that rarely had their marriages consummated until they were much older. Christine De Pizan the medieval authoress talks about this and there are some great modern texts that have researched this issue. So basically I think the age thing is an area where GRRM screwed up due to a misconception about the medieval period.

As for why the relationship appeals to me personally, well it has the Jane Eyre and Mr Rochester or the Brian de Bois Gilbert and Rebecca thing going on. Although, much as I would like a future romance between them and do think there is some foreshadowing for it, I seriously doubt it will happen.

Also in real life I wouldn't go near any man in the series with a barge pole. Their views on life are medieval.

[Kittykatknits]

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

I have always noticed these three characters as sharing certain characteristics. Littlefinger and Sandor are both attracted to Sansa sexually, she thinks she has kissed both of them, and both men have helped her navigate through the dangerous circumstances she has been in.

Others have answered your questions here but I wanted to point something out. Sansa only imagines that Sandor kissed her, but he never did. LF actually does kiss her on multiple occasions. The first is in Storm while she is building the snow castle. He later repeats the action in Feast, once while also making her sit on his lap.

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

the beauty of Sansa's story is that she is in a constant state of flux. i read a comment a while back on another thread that wondered at how Sandor would react to Sansa if they ever did meet again and she had become a legitimate player, not his little bird. Its purely conjecture of course, but somehow I dont think he would be pleased, and that is a bit creepy in my view. I think sandor saw her for who she was, and Petyr see's what she could become. Just to reiterate, i do not think Sansa should end up with Littlefinger or anything like that, just pointing out some niggles i have with the way San/San is viewed.

Well, Sandor is the one that first pushed her to give Joff what he wants so he was actually encouraging her to play the game. Beyond that, he also lied for her on a couple of occasions which made him a bit of a game player too. Later, when he learned that she escaped from Tyrion, he was obviously happy and proud of her. That would indicate that he would be pleased actually.
As for LF, I don't think saying that he sees what she could become is accurate. Rather, he sees her as what he WANTS her to become. Big difference. LF is looking for a Cat replacement as well as the daughter with Cat he felt that he should have had. Remember that line about Sansa being Alayne in her heart all the time?

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Sandor is not an evil guy, and I'm not trying to blacken his name forever, but he wanted to rape and rescue her the night of Blackwater. I'm sorry, I just can't get past that. there are too many disturbing paradoxes in his character to make me want this ship, but i can appreciate that he does to a great deal of good on Sansa's behalf, and not for purely selfish reasons, as Petyr does

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

He says to Arya later; "I should have fucked her bloody". it was definitely implied

lilenadheas, on 23 May 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

i dont really see how my reading is wrong? it is implicitly implied. We know he contemplated it? Dont we? that he wanted to but refrained. So did Tyrion on their wedding night, doesn't make him a rapist, but it does make me uncomfortable. thats all. Damn it, I have to go to bed! my apologises, i see that your wording was that it wasnt "strictly correct", not wrong.

It always fascinates me how often Sandor is condemned for wanting to rape Sansa yet Tyrion is given a free pass for not raping her. Nope, he only had her strip and then fondled her while she was laying on the bed.

Sandor didn't go to her room that night planning to rape her. He went there to take her away but he botched it, no huge surprise. His desertion isn't really a surprise either. Sandor's greatest fear yet the preceding chapters are filled with fire and burning imagery. He spoke out against Joff with his "enough" and has lied for Sansa more than once. These are huge acts for a man who has created a life for himself as the Lannister's loyal dog. So, Sandor went to her as a broken man looking to save her. She closed her eyes at one point when she thought Sandor was going to kiss her. Sandor then took this as a rejection at the point when he is most vulnerable. For Sandor, experiencing rejection from Sansa at that moment would have been overwhelming. She's the only one who has treated his with respect or as a human being in KL. So, Sandor took what he needed/wanted in that moment:

“Still can’t bear to look, can you?” she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down on the bed. “I’ll have that song, Florian and Jonquil, you said.” His dagger was out, poised at her throat. “Sing little bird. Sing for your little life.”
“Still can’t bear to look, can you?” she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down on the bed. “I’ll have that song, Florian and Jonquil, you said.” His dagger was out, poised at her throat. “Sing little bird. Sing for your little life.”

What has always struck me about this scene is that Sandor seems to romanticize it later just as Sansa does. She remembers him kissing her although he does not. In Storm, look at his language with Arya on multiple occasions . He repeatedly mentions saving her and how she sang him a "pretty song". This seems to stay in place until Arya asks him about hitting Sansa with an ax, which destroys that illusion for him.

As for Sandor's speech while he is sitting underneath that tree, I call that the most misunderstood line in the entire series. For the record, here is everything he says when it comes to Sansa:
And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.

Put this in context and it doesn't come across as a plan to commit rape. Sandor thinks he is dying and is asking Arya for mercy but she won't give it to him. He also recently learned that Sansa was married to Tyrion. He knows she would have been forced to it and he probably also knows about his first marriage to Tysha. Look at his lines as a combination of a death bed confession and him trying to provoke Arya in to killing him. This is a man who is expressing profound grief at what happened to Sansa and his failure to do more for her. I meant to take her too. I should have. He means that he should have taken Sansa with him out of KL that night. The next line about fucked her bloody does not express his wish that he had raped her. Sandor is a man that communicates with violence and is merely stating that if he had destroyed her it would have been a kinder fate than leaving her for Tyrion.

lilenadheas - Not picking on you, I realized after I started this post that all the quotes came from you. Many of your questions are common ones that I hear when it comes to these two characters.

Edited by Kittykatknits, 24 May 2012 - 07:37 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Woman of War, on 24 May 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

Why do especially many women find the relationship between a multiple murderer and an inexperienced naive thirteen year old so very intriguing? Why do they not choose an older female character, a more worldwise and less defenseless heroine, with a sex life already existing? Why not the very adult beauty and beast story between Jaime (inner beast) and Brienne (inner beauty) ?

This is the most ridiculous thing I have read today. Sorry but it is. I might add that I've never seen Sandor and Sansa's relationship as anything even near a full fledged romance. Ask my husband on the other hand and he'd say yes, so to state that women only read to look for romance is prejudiced in the extreme. The reason I find the relationship fascinating is because it is understated, it's subtle, it's unexpected and it is unlikely. Blink the first time you plow through ASOIAF and you'll miss it (I didn't catch on until late ASOS the first time I read the series ages ago, my SO was way faster than I was to catch on, and he's most definitely male). Reread again and it stands out on the pages.

The reason people find it fascinating is because it is there on the pages, in all its weirdness and subtle glory.

I also find your choice of words extremely interesting. "Multiple murderer". Who does he murder? He's ordered to kill people, a hired sword, killing people is what he does. But is it murder? I guess if you strictly see all killing as murder, but murder implies some sort of plan.

Tyrion on the hand is definitely a murderer and a rapist, yet is he getting the same "OMG he is a dangerous, immature person and not fit for a relationship" treatment? Rarely. A lot of people really wish to crowbar in a relationship with Tyrion between him and <insert woman here> but it's nowhere on the pages.

[lilenadheas]

"I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.".    

You cannot argue with text, and clearly Sandor did contemplate raping Sansa, so can we please acknowledge this? I'm not saying we need to judge his every action by this instance, but it seems to me that some are either denying the sexually predatory element to the relationship is there, or downplaying it. Can't quote on my device at the moment, but @lyannastark, just for the record, I have also commented on the Tyrion passage in this thread. I don't hate on Sandor exclusively in this regard.

Also @womanofwar, that post was absolutely beautiful. You said everything I couldn't and then some.

[lilenadheas]

@kitkatknits haha apparently you can argue with text. Sorry, imissed that analysis on the first read.I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I really don't think you can deconstruct the lines like that without romantizing the moment and his feelings.

[Rapsie]

But to suggest the lines were saying that he was planning to rape and kill her "before" leaving her for that dwarf would imply that he knew she was going to be married to Tyrion.

Grammatical it makes sense as a hyperbolic comparison: before used in the sense of "rather than" as opposed to a period of time. To me the ambiguous line was "I meant to take her" as it can be read two ways.

[Rapsie]

@ Woman of War

You mentioned Jaime and Brienne and why people don't concentrate on their romance instead. I can't speak for everyone, but I like the potential of a Brienne and Jaime romance, but it hasn't got as much background or foreshadowing or layers of complexity as the Sandor and Sansa one. Also as of ADWD I personally believe that Jaime or Brienne will die early on in the next book. The manner of that death and what will happen to them has been covered in other threads to do with that topic.

Oddly the age gap between Brienne (who is 18/19?) and Jaime is almost the same as Sansa and Sandor. In terms of interest in other romantic pairings: well to be honest there are very few to choose from in the "will they" get together or "won't they" sort of way.

[Kittykatknits]

Woman of War, on 24 May 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

So looking for a love story is natural, but why this one? Why do especially many women find the relationship between a multiple murderer and an inexperienced naive thirteen year old so very intriguing? Why do they not choose an older female character, a more worldwise and less defenseless heroine, with a sex life already existing? Why not the very adult beauty and beast story between Jaime (inner beast) and Brienne (inner beauty) ? Because a heroine inevitably has to be beautiful to make her worth of readers' consideration as object of fandom shipping and identification?
Sansa as character is presented as a white sheet at the beginning of the story where the author with all cruelty scratches the scars of events in, there is not very much there at the beginning of the books, she is formed by the progress of the books. This is imo the reason why her POV'S are soo very well written and so much more interesting than the character herself. At the same time readers can choose  what to project onto this character, Sansa can be all of us, in her naiveté at the beginning we can see Martinworld through her eyes, while she is not understanding a lot, we gaet the informations indirectly presented and are invited to draw our own conclusions. It's the Forrest Gump writing trick. And we as readers grow with Sansa, the books are not only her coming of age, they are ours as readers as well. We are subtly introduced to the cruelty of Martinworld, culminating in Ned's beheading, being further disillusioned, learning about scheming......Sansa has been especially created by Martin as identification object, as easy story access. We all can be Sansa.

I, as a woman, have though some problems with her character, concerning the emphasis on her helplessness and passivety, she is simply very different from me at her age.

Wow. You're making quite a few assumptions about women in here, including me. I guess it goes without saying that I find many of your statements pretty far off the mark. Also, you do know that Jaime/Brienne is one of the most popular ships and pairings in the fan base, right? I find their relationship fascinating as well but for different reasons.

For the record, I don't think they are in love nor would I call their relationship a romance. In fact, my husband, the most non-romantic person I know thinks they are going to end up in a relationship together. I find the connection between them to be fascinating and unusual. It's different and that makes it worth exploring. Martin likes making his readers think and I believe the relationship between the two of them does just that.

As to Sansa, I wouldn't call her a blank slate. She's on a story arc just as all the other characters in this series are. She's actually one of the most realistic characters in the books. As for her being passive, I have to disagree. As early as GOT, she argues for her father's life in open court and plans to push Joff to his death. Neither come even remotely close to passive acts.

Woman of War, on 24 May 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

You see the other side of this: in RL the women who feel the resposibitlity the help the villain, to tame their personal beast, to take the task to reform an alcoholic or wife beater are those who may end up  as the  most likely victims of domestic violence since they are the ones who are never able to seek help for themselves, to go to the police and to turn their back on the abuser.

This is the second time, I've seen you assume that a relationship with Sandor wold lead to domestic violence. You did the same thing in another thread while at the same time stated that all Tyrion needed, the man with a history of domestic violence, was an older woman who would stand up to him. I find that to be quite fascinating. I'll repeat my same comment to you here again:

Quote

I won't dispute that Sandor has intimacy issues and struggles to relate with people. But the same applies just as much as Tyrion. Whether or not Sandor and Sansa end up in a relationship together, and I have strong doubts about that happening regardless of what I would like to happen, I disagree that Sandor is the one who would become a domestic abuser. Sandor gave Sansa advice, lied for her, protected her, and as we saw in Storm, was very proud of her for escaping from the Lannisters. Martin also points out that when he does touch her that it is gently. He has also elected to stay on the Quiet Isle, an indicator that Sandor is seeking help to work through his issues. Let's contrast that with Tyrion who has an actual history of domestic abuse. Tyrion struggles to control his emotions and never knows when to shut up, a fact he acknowledges and that LF is able to use to frame him for the death of Joff. Tyrion has a history of demeaning and objectifying women. When it comes specifically to Sansa, we also know that Tyrion feels bitterness towards her on several occasions. If either of these men were to turn in to a domestic abuser with Sansa, it is Tyrion.

Pelki, on 24 May 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

EDIT: Too many 'however's. :V

Ha, I don't think you can talk about these two for long without using the word 'however' a few times.
I liked reading your post; gave me the chance to see the perspective of a guy on these two characters.