483 replies to this topic

[Natalie_S]

Kittykatknits, on 24 May 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

It always fascinates me how often Sandor is condemned for wanting to rape Sansa yet Tyrion is given a free pass for not raping her. Nope, he only had her strip and then fondled her while she was laying on the bed.

The amount of Tyrion hate never ceases to amaze me...

The wedding night scene is so sad for both of them that I really don't understand how it can be viewed as sleazy, sexual or even paedophiliac.
According to Westeros law, mentality and society, Tyrion was SUPPOSED to take Sansa's maidenhood that night. He think it's his duty (in fact, they both think so) and the decision not to do it has consequences on him.
He wants to get drunk because he clearly feels almost as uncomfortable as Sansa, and the "stripping" is almost even more embarassing for him (because he can see the revulsion in Sansa) than for her.
Even Sansa acknowledges that "he was as scared as her" and feels "pity" towards him.


Anyway, I'm fascinated by the San/San pairing, I don't know why but, unlikely as it is, they seem to "click" on paper, you can almost feel the chemistry.
The sexual attraction that Sandor has for Sansa has been mentioned many times (I liked Woman of War's analysis ), but I'd just like underline that there is also a strong desire by Sansa herself.
When she thinks of a sexual-related situation, her thoughts go immediately to the Hound, and she even has a dream about being in a bed with him.
It's all sort of confused, because she's very young and she doesn't seem ready to vocalise her feelings towards him, but her desire is there, between the lines.

Edited by Natalie_S, 24 May 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[lilenadheas]

@rapsie, sorry, can't quote, it's very frustrating, but let's get into the nitty gritty of the passage if we're going to argue semantics:). The Tyrion line; "I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf" implies that he definitely did not know about sansa's marriage to Tyrion, and if he had, he would not have been thinking of rescuing her, but killing her. I don't take this
Line seriously in terms of his threats, I think he is just in pain and angry, but the sentiment expressed is not heroic rescue. The word "leaving" here is very important in my reading, as tha is how I am construing the sentence to mean that he didnt know

[Kittykatknits]

Hmmm, hope my posts make sense. Editing seems to not be working right now.

[Woman of War]

By Lyanna Stark:

Quote

I also find your choice of words extremely interesting. "Multiple murderer". Who does he murder? He's ordered to kill people, a hired sword, killing people is what he does. But is it murder? I guess if you strictly see all killing as murder, but murder implies some sort of plan.

are you seriously telling me that committing murder because you are ordered to is morally better than doing it out of your own decision for reasons like rage, revenge or greed? Where is the moral difference between getting the money from your employer for killing someone or taking the same amount of money from the person you have just murdered and robbed??? Sandor was T ywin's, Cersei's and then Joffrey's personal hitman.
If a hitman is rented by a mafia boss to kill people it's murder, isn't it? Sorry for bringing Godwin's law in but the excuse of "he was ordered to kill" is , as I wrote elsewhere, the excuse of Eichmann.
And why do you feel the need to whitewash Sandor from murder? How would him not being what he is support any of the arguments given in this thread? The whole debate is based on Sandor being a character whose morality is hard to swallow. On the contrary, making him "whiter" would make him and his conflicting relationship towards Sansa less interesting. Turning him into an average westerosi male would do very little service to this literary character, so I simply do not get the reason for your argument. Sandor is a nightmare to nearly everyone, to Arya he was gaoler and protector, if he will be disaster or savior to Sansa we will see.
At the moment I do not see where bringing Tyrion up here is helpful in this debate, I think this would definitely be worth a thread of its own. ( and if Tyrion is a murderer, this does not mean that Sandor isn't a murderer as well, logic! , this argument does not help here) No we should not discuss away the evil parts of characters, this doesn't do justice to hugely interesting protagonists, neither to the main POV's nor to the others.

[Rapsie]

@ Lieanaheas

Sorry, my quote function isn't playing ball at the moment either!

I'm not sure what you mean about "leaving". Could you explain further?

[Kittykatknits]

Natalie_S, on 24 May 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

The amount of Tyrion hate never ceases to amaze me... The wedding night scene is so sad for both of them that I really don't understand how it can be viewed as sleazy, sexual or even paedophiliac. According to Westeros law, mentality and society, Tyrion was SUPPOSED to take Sansa's maidenhood that night. He think it's his duty (in fact, they both think so) and the decision not to do it has consequences on him. He wants to get drunk because he clearly feels almost as uncomfortable as Sansa, and the "stripping" is almost even more embarassing for him (because he can see the revulsion in Sansa) than for her. Even Sansa acknowledges that "he was as scared as her" and feels "pity" towards him.

I can't speak for others but as for myself, I don't hate Tyrion. I find his character fascinating. Every chapter of his in GoT and CoK was a joy to read. Dance was a bore but everything Essos related was a bore for me. Tyrion is capable of great kindness but he is still a dark grey character. In his own way, Tyrion is just as ruthless as his father. I won't excuse any of his actions becase I may feel pity for him.

As for the wedding night, I hold him accountable because he married her against her will and had all the power in their relationship. Whether he was supposed to take her maidenhead or not, it would have been rape. We are modern readers and look at the series with modern viewpoints. I don't give him or any one in the series a pass because it was the norm or part of their culture.

[lilenadheas]

Just that it implies a change of heart after new revelations he heard of after kings landing, which would negate the argument that he knew of the Tyrion and Sansa marriage. I think I may have misread your post, we're you saying that he did know about the marriage or didn't?

[lilenadheas]

@natalie_S Tyrion is a great character.Sandor is a great character. But we can dislike things they do and contemplate, and criticise them without hating the characters themselves. Also, Tyrion himself acknowledges that he feels pedophilic iin the moment. Sansa was too young even by Westrosi standards

[Lyanna Stark]

lilenadheas, on 24 May 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

"I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.". You cannot argue with text, and clearly Sandor did contemplate raping Sansa, so can we please acknowledge this?

No, that implies reading comprehension fail. English is not my first language so sometimes unclear grammar can confuse me, but in this case it's not confusing. "Before" here has the function of "rather than" meaning "death/any violence of choice/<insert bad thing for dramatic effect here> would have been better than leaving her for whatever horror that bloody dwarf will do to her". It's clearly used for the dramatic effect and due to Sandor's generally uncouth use of language. Having an epiphany does not magically turn him into Baelor the Blessed.

Quote

@lyannastark, just for the record, I have also commented on the Tyrion passage in this thread. I don't hate on Sandor exclusively in this regard. Also @womanofwar, that post was absolutely beautiful. You said everything I couldn't and then some.

I don't understand why you need to hate any character. Hating Tyrion or Sandor or Littlefinger seems like a pointless endevour. Characters can be analysed and we can argue whether their actions were moral or immoral, we can make judgements about them, but hating them? What for?

Tyrion often gets whitewashed a lot by readers, yet I don't profess to hate his character. On the contrary, I find it an interesting character, but it annoys me that readers so blithely accept his own view on himself as gospel without examining what it is he actually does. He rapes, he murders, he oppresses, he acts as jailor in a hostage situation, he hits women, he threatens to murder his brother and brutally rape his sister, he drinks too much, etc etc. yet because he's witty, funny and longs so intensely for happiness people forgive him almost anthing.

Liking a character and whitewashing a character are two very different things. The same goes (I assume since I find it pretty meaningless) for "hating" a character and finding flaw with a character.

[Lyanna Stark]

Woman of War, on 24 May 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

By Lyanna Stark: are you seriously telling me that committing murder because you are ordered to is morally better than doing it out of your own decision for reasons like rage, revenge or greed?  

Yes, if this was not the case, every soldier in every war would be a serial killer.

Unless you are a pacifist of course.


I don't feel any need to whitewash Sandor. Find one post where I have. You can try, but you won't find it. He's a hired sword which means his job is to kill whatever enemies or hindrances are in the way, but he does not kill for personal gain , unlike say Littlefinger. That's not a nice occupation by any stretch of the imagination, which I don't think I've ever stated either so I'm not sure where you think I have.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 24 May 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[Rapsie]

@ Woman of War

The books are set within a medieval time setting and comparing someone ordered to kill others who have broken the law is a different thing to killing innocents. However the laws are not things we today we see as death penalty offences. So looking at the Mycah murder: Joffrey told his parents that Mycah and Arya had attacked him with clubs. Attacking the crown Prince is a serious offence. In The Hedge Knight, Dunk nearly has his foot and hand cut off for hitting and kicking Aeiron Targaryan (who at the time was beating a defencless girl). He ends up in a trial by combat to clear his name. The Mycah murder was awful, but Cersei ordered it because in her eyes Mycah had committed a capital offence. She also wanted Arya's hand chopped off. That doesn't take away the fact that Sandor killed him and Mycah didn't deserve it. However we have seen Sandor's own guilt for it in ASOS. He does regret it.

However there are several instances of similar incidents in the series: Ned beheading the Night's Watch deserters. They have broken oaths but it hardly deserves death. Similarly Tyrion condemns the Antler men to death without any sort of trial and gives the to Joff to fling out of catapults after antlers had been nailed into their heads. Cersei has two serving girls and a serving boy beheaded by Ser Ilyn for trying to run away during the battle of black water. Dany has people tortured and executed.


The medieval period was a brutal one. Sandor is not alone in his brutality. One of the things that is most impressive about the series is that GRRM tries to make it authentic as possible to a historical time setting. In fact There is a thing about this on So Spake Martin, which references Mycah.

[lilenadheas]

@lyannastark first of all, my apologies, I should have made it clearer. I said "hate on", a colloquial term for criticise. I do not hate Sandor.

Sorry, but I can't agree with you on this. He is indeed saying before as a rather than scenario, but why does that have to mitigate his earlier declaration? "I meant to take her too" he thought about it, he decided not to, he later lamented his decision when talking to Arya.

[SerMixalot]

lilenadheas, on 24 May 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

"I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.".

You cannot argue with text, and clearly Sandor did contemplate raping Sansa, so can we please acknowledge this? I'm not saying we need to judge his every action by this instance, but it seems to me that some are either denying the sexually predatory element to the relationship is there, or downplaying it. Can't quote on my device at the moment, but @lyannastark, just for the record, I have also commented on the Tyrion passage in this thread. I don't hate on Sandor exclusively in this regard.

Also @womanofwar, that post was absolutely beautiful. You said everything I couldn't and then some.

but should a man be judged by every thought that passes through their mind or utters from their lips? People say many things in hindsight or foresight based on regret, passing anger, angst or passion that are not who they are.

A most common is wishing someone dead or saying I could have killed her/him.  That does not make one a murderer or necessarily a violent person.  In this case Sandors expression may or may not imply an actual intent at the time.

[Rapsie]

@Lileandeas

Sorry I'm not making myself clear! What I meant was if in the context of the phrase, "before" indicates time, as in I am going swimming before work. Then if Sandor seriously meant he wished her had raped and killed her "before" (time wise) leaving her (which would be a corpse) for Tyrion. It would imply that he knew she was going to be married off, which he didn't.

Therefore the "before" functions in the same way as "rather than". Like as in the old phrase "Death before Dishonour": which I am certain people have said and actually gone for the Dishonour part because actually they don't want to die.

I hope that made sense!

[lilenadheas]

@Rapsie seriously, what the hell? It seems to be only us that are having difficulty quoting. Maybe they're trying to kick us out?! *conspiracy*

I think the problem I have with Sandor as a murderer/killer/whatever is that he enjoys it. Also, the comparison to Ned is slightly unfair. He refuses to condone the killing of children, whatever the reason. Logically, it was safer for Robert to kill Dany, but Ned refused to be a part of it. A soldier kills other soldiers (in an ideal world, we know that they rape/pillage/murder), but Sandor can kill a child as easily as he can kill a grown man. That shit is scary

[lilenadheas]

@rapsie, oh my god that is weird. You just quoted my own family motto to me! "I would rather die than be disgraced".

[lilenadheas]

@sermixalot during the riot of kings landing, Sandor is waiting for Sansa in the chamber. Rereading the chapter gives hints about his intentions. He says things like "I could keep you safe", "no one one ever hurt you agin"she thinks he is going to kiss her, he shoves her down on the bed etc... Rescue and rape. Thankfully rescue wins out. Mind you, this is only my interpretation of the scene.

Also, I do judge people based on their thoughts as well as actions. It shows what they're capable of. Wishing someone dead almost a casual saying, but vehemently proclaiming that you should have raped and killed someone when you had the chance, is not.

[SerMixalot]

lilenadheas, on 24 May 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

@sermixalot during the riot of kings landing, Sandor is waiting for Sansa in the chamber. Rereading the chapter gives hints about his intentions. He says things like "I could keep you safe", "no one one ever hurt you agin"she thinks he is going to kiss her, he shoves her down on the bed etc... Rescue and rape. Thankfully rescue wins out. Mind you, this is only my interpretation of the scene.

Also, I do judge people based on their thoughts as well as actions. It shows what they're capable of. Wishing someone dead almost a casual saying, but vehemently proclaiming that you should have raped and killed someone when you had the chance, is not.

I can see the sexuality or symbolism of Sandor throwing Sansa to the bed, a song could easily be symbolic of love/sex. But that does not necessarily mean rape.  Where is that fine line (in romantic literature) of having a forceful man take (and the woman gladly taken) and a forceful man taking what is not given.

As for the 2nd scene of your evidence, it has been a few months since i read SoS and am reading it now, but not quite up to that scene yet, was that not spoken after being hurt and is on his death bed/root?  It sounds the mutterings of a frustrated and angry man dying without resolution to the many pains in his life.  It sounds like anger at being refused by sansa as much as it sound like regrets over a path not taken or a serious desire to have raped her.

[Kittykatknits]

Several posts later and I finally get around to answering the OP's question.

I admit to being a bit of a sucker for romance when it is well done but most Hollywood RomComs leave me cold. They are filled with stereotype and cliche. I love Gone with the Wind, both book and movie. I'll probably have a crush on Clark Gable for the rest of my life, he is Rhett to me. Pride and Prejudice is another favorite, I find myself re-reading it almost every year. I could go on but I doubt you are looking for a laundry list from me.

I don't "ship" as a general rule. In fact, I'd never heard the term until a short while ago and think its a rather silly word. I don't subscribe to crack shipping so you won't find me in any threads listing out who I hope marries who or which characters I want to end up together. It's not part of the story so I don't dwell on it. However, I find San/San to be different. They both clearly have a connection between them. There is also quite a bit of foreshadowing that they will meet again in the future and that something between them may happen. Sansa seems to feel a growing sexual attraction towards Sandor and, in general, thinks positively of him. If she did not or if she expressed her dislike towards him, I would not feel comfortable supporting a potential future relationship between the two. San/San is subtle and different, devoid of the cliche that I find so eye-roll inducing.

I'm glad that she did not go with him during the BBW. He was obviously a broken man at that point and she was still a child. Sandor is on the QI now, a place which I like to call the Westeros equivalent of a modern-day rehab clinic. I hope we will see what Sandor is like with his rage gentled.

There time together during Clash was written when Martin still had plans to put a five year gap in the story. As we all know, that is not going to happen so he is moving forward with the story as planned without the gap. The biggest impact are to those characters who started the series as children like Sansa, Arya, \Jon, Dany, and Bran. Since there is no gap, they should have been aged up a few years at the start. I find mself doing that mentally with all of them. Well, except Tommen, he really does act his age. It's a mistake on Martin's part and the narrative does suffer for it.

Finally, I don't think Sandor is a good man. I don't think there are good or bad men in this story. I think there are just men who have done both good and bad things. Actually, I think he's a bit of an asshole but that's just me.  I also think he's rude and a complete jerk to Sansa at times. I love their scene on the rooftop together. He makes some pretty big statements and she calls him out for it. Their exchange is pure gold.

[Rapsie]

@lilenaheas

The quoting gods are clearly against us.

We may disagree about the interpretation of that line, but I'm not trying to whitewash the character.
He is a brutal man who has done horrible things. I think he has been on a redemption arc for a while now, but that doesn't change the fact that he did take pleasure in killing.

Edit: @KittyKatKnits

I agree entirely with your whole post! With the only exception being, that while Hollywood Rom-Coms are something I could happily live without I do like the over the top Barbara Cartland and Catherine Cookson films and TV adaptations.

Edited by Rapsie, 24 May 2012 - 09:07 AM.