96 replies to this topic

[Kim87]

The Fallen, on 26 May 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Actually, this is not unprecedented in our own history. Racism didn't begin until the European empires decided to expand into Africa and other non-white areas of the world. Places like Egypt, and even India and China, were respected and in some cases revered by the Greeks and later the Romans. Trade took place between the West and East and there was mutual respect. Racism really is a fairly new phenomenon in human history.

Just think about what you wrote there, and ignore the historical evidence that contradicts it. But really just consider human nature. Do you really think that racism is something new that just randomly happened at a certain historical age?

But Lys, Qaarth, Valantis and Asshai are supposed to be white or pale skinned at least. So I think more or less Essos has it all.

[Athanasius Pernath]

Kim87, on 26 May 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

Just think about what you wrote there, and ignore the historical evidence that contradicts it. But really just consider human nature. Do you really think that racism is something new that just randomly happened at a certain historical age?

But Lys, Qaarth, Valantis and Asshai are supposed to be white or pale skinned at least. So I think more or less Essos has it all.

i think i remember Naathi people are dark-skinned, but i don't remember text passages so i don't know how dark they are.
all the free-cities folks are white. i suppose the difference between the 'slavic blonde' lyseni and the 'spanish-italian mediterranean Myrish' are due both to percentage of Valyrian Blodd (that's relatively recent) and to more ancient genetic ancestry (for example, on the Andalos Hill lived the fair-skinned, blonde Andals. i suppose that 6000 years ago, after the migration on westeros, someone reamined there. just as some Rhoynar-related populations chose to remain on Essos...)

[The Fallen]

Kim87, on 26 May 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

Just think about what you wrote there, and ignore the historical evidence that contradicts it. But really just consider human nature. Do you really think that racism is something new that just randomly happened at a certain historical age?

Please, feel free to list some of the evidence.

[Kim87]

The Fallen, on 26 May 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

Please, feel free to list some of the evidence.

I am not going to bother with any serious attempt in proving you wrong. So Wikipedia it is. I would think such things would be obvious for most people.

http://en.wikipedia....cism#In_history

[Whitering]

Umm, lol, those are "recent" examples on the Wikipedia page. Anything probably from the last 2,000 years is relatively recent, given that we've had a history much longer that that. However, I do side with you in the general argument. As soon as people started meeting people who were identifiably of a different colour, there has likely been racism; its just that we only recently began traveling the long distances required to meet other ethnic cultures of a significantly different colour. Basically, humans on a broader scale, really suck.

[Stannis' sense of humour]

Whitering, on 26 May 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Umm, lol, those are "recent" examples on the Wikipedia page. Anything probably from the last 2,000 years is relatively recent, given that we've had a history much longer that that. However, I do side with you in the general argument. As soon as people started meeting people who were identifiably of a different colour, there has likely been racism; its just that we only recently began traveling the long distances required to meet other ethnic cultures of a significantly different colour. Basically, humans on a broader scale, really suck.

Also, writing has become more common in the last 2000 years so instances of racism will be more likely to be recorded. Difference between history and pre-history that.

[Kim87]

Whitering, on 26 May 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

Umm, lol, those are "recent" examples on the Wikipedia page. Anything probably from the last 2,000 years is relatively recent, given that we've had a history much longer that that. However, I do side with you in the general argument. As soon as people started meeting people who were identifiably of a different colour, there has likely been racism; its just that we only recently began traveling the long distances required to meet other ethnic cultures of a significantly different colour. Basically, humans on a broader scale, really suck.

Well there are examples from antiquity. But you wrote my point far better. It’s just human nature. That was my point at least.

[The Fallen]

Kim87, on 26 May 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

Well there are examples from antiquity. But you wrote my point far better. It’s just human nature. That was my point at least.

    If you're talking about the kind of institutionalized racism that was prevalent in the western hemisphere after European colonization, that's fairly recent. Even 2,000 years ago is fairly recent when you consider that Egyptian civilization was around 12,000 years ago.

    Again, could there have been isolated incidents of racism? Of course. But, for the most part you didn't have the kind of racism that is prevalent today.

[Jon Flowers]

The Fallen, on 26 May 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Actually, this is not unprecedented in our own history. Racism didn't begin until the European empires decided to expand into Africa and other non-white areas of the world. Places like Egypt, and even India and China, were respected and in some cases revered by the Greeks and later the Romans. Trade took place between the West and East and there was mutual respect. Racism really is a fairly new phenomenon in human history.

Really?  That sort of thing has always been ubiquitous, as an example, the word "barbarian" is an onomatopoeia from Greek, meaning people who babble, basically foreigners.  Bigotry has always existed in the real world, whether or not it was based soley upon skin color is irrelevant.  In Egyptian iconography, the Pharoh was nearly always referrred to as the smiter of the Asiatics (a different race/culture).  See the Narmer Pallet for the earliest example of this.  Human nature hasn't soured in the last millennium or so, we've always been hatefull and xenophobic by nature.  It's only recently that there is any realy societal effort to counteract this.


Also, when one makes and assertion, the burden of proof lies with them.  Asking someone to disprove a statement is not a legitimate argument.

Edited by Jon Flowers, 26 May 2012 - 08:50 PM.

[Fire Eater]

Bastard of Godsgrace, on 24 May 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

People from Sothoryos are most likely black. There is also a black squire knighted by Barristan in ADWD (I forgot his name and don't have the book at hand) who was from Basilisk Isles, IIRC.

Tumco Lho, he wasn't from the Basilisk Isles but from Basilisk Point on the main continent of Sothoros.

Edited by Fire Eater, 26 May 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[The Fallen]

Jon Flowers, on 26 May 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

Really?  That sort of thing has always been ubiquitous, as an example, the word "barbarian" is an onomatopoeia from Greek, meaning people who babble, basically foreigners.  Bigotry has always existed in the real world, whether or not it was based soley upon skin color is irrelevant.  In Egyptian iconography, the Pharoh was nearly always referrred to as the smiter of the Asiatics (a different race/culture).  See the Narmer Pallet for the earliest example of this.  Human nature hasn't soured in the last millennium or so, we've always been hatefull and xenophobic by nature.  It's only recently that there is any realy societal effort to counteract this.


Also, when one makes and assertion, the burden of proof lies with them.  Asking someone to disprove a statement is not a legitimate argument.

I don't disagree with any of that. Maybe I didn't make my position clear. I'm referring to the type of 'institutionalized' racism that would lead the Nazis to try to exterminate an entire ethnic group. Or the kind that has demonized people of African descent. Even slavery was different, it was a result of war. Not an entire continent, aided by the church, demonizing Africans as justification to enslave them. And then perpetuating that over centuries so that you now have an almost universal belief about a specific racial group as being inferior. It's no wonder society is trying to counteract this.

[Red Wedding Participant]

Well, charactesr from other places may be "black," but only on the Summer Islands are characters noted for being truly, pure black;

[Apple Martini]

I'm pretty sure that Sothoros natives are intended to be black. I imagine the Summer Isles to be Caribbean-like, and Sothoros to be like Africa. And at least parts of Essos produce olive-skinned, dark-haired people, probably like Mediterraneans. Myr is one such place, and the Rhoynar. The Dornish get their olive skin from Nymeria's influence.

[SerMixalot]

the exiled prince at KL is from the summer islands IIRC

[Jon Flowers]

The Fallen, on 26 May 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

I don't disagree with any of that. Maybe I didn't make my position clear. I'm referring to the type of 'institutionalized' racism that would lead the Nazis to try to exterminate an entire ethnic group. Or the kind that has demonized people of African descent. Even slavery was different, it was a result of war. Not an entire continent, aided by the church, demonizing Africans as justification to enslave them. And then perpetuating that over centuries so that you now have an almost universal belief about a specific racial group as being inferior. It's no wonder society is trying to counteract this.

Those things did happen, but the institution of slavery in the US was not as monolithic as you're making it out to be.  The ideology you're citing was an effort of the small minority of US citizens who actually owned slaves to defend themselves morally, which was a losing battle.  The church did not support slavery as an institution.  The church in the US was never centralized enough to support or oppose anything as a unified body.  Some churches did of course support slavery as an institution, but many more were vehemently opposed to it.  Most abolitionist movements were in fact based around church congregations.

Also, in antiquity, slavery was most definately institutuionalized.  Consider the Athenian and Spartan confederations as examples.  The Spartan's entire society was predicated upon the existence of a captive slave population, primarily Messenians, to provide the agricultural labor necesary to allow pure blooded Spartiates of sufficient property to devote themselves entirely to military pursuits.  The Athenians by contrast, were a mercantile society and not reliant on slave labor to the extent that the Spartans were, but in their constitution, slaves were specifically disinfrachised and prohibited from owning property.    

I just don't think that racism is anything new, whether as an institution or as a basic human impulse.  And I likewise don't think that the West in general or the US in particular are guilty of being especially bad, but rather of being the most recent, prominantly discussed example.

Sorry to everyone for taking the topic so far afield from the ASoIaF series by the way, I'm sure neither of us mean to be a pain in anyone's ass.

[The Fallen]

I didn't want to quote the entire passage. I appreciate your responses, you obviously have some knowledge of this issue. But just to clarify, I was referring mostly to the Catholic church. I am aware of all the slavery that took place in ancient times. I guess I'm merely trying to make the argument that overall, the ancients were probably more open-minded towards other ethnic groups/races and I think GRRM does a good job of portraying that. Some characters have negative views of those outside of their immediate group, but there isn't a systemic racism that pervades the world.

    And that's the last I'll say on the topic, although I enjoyed the back and forth.

[Hear Us Roar]

People in Essos, Summer Isles, and i think Sothyros. But black people live all over. Especially in Essos.

[Jon Flowers]

The Fallen, on 27 May 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

I didn't want to quote the entire passage. I appreciate your responses, you obviously have some knowledge of this issue. But just to clarify, I was referring mostly to the Catholic church. I am aware of all the slavery that took place in ancient times. I guess I'm merely trying to make the argument that overall, the ancients were probably more open-minded towards other ethnic groups/races and I think GRRM does a good job of portraying that. Some characters have negative views of those outside of their immediate group, but there isn't a systemic racism that pervades the world.

And that's the last I'll say on the topic, although I enjoyed the back and forth.

I understand, I just disagree a little bit.  Nice to have a discussion rather than an argument for once.  I do appreciate it.  Also, as you said, It is probably a thing that Martin doesn't make his world overtly racist.  Everyone in positions of power seem to be sexist as it is and adding racism to the mix would make it even harder to like anybody.  Take care.

[infinitesunrise]

ARYa_Nym, on 24 May 2012 - 03:18 AM, said:

There was towards Alleras:

Quote

"Leo’s eyes were hazel, bright with wine and malice. “Your mother was a monkey from the Summer Isles. The
Dornish will fuck anything with a hole between its legs. Meaning no offense. You may be brown as a nut, but
at least you bathe. Unlike our spotted pig boy.” He waved ahand toward Pate."

I was actually a little surprised when I came across that. It adds more realism to it, definitely, but here I thought that was the one area where Westeros was more progressive. Sure, the Summer Islanders would still be seen as "savages", but I'd thought it was kinda cool that no one cared that they were black. Then Leo even goes on to call the guy a "mongrel" after that...

[Ser Areo Mace]

One of the Walder Frey's is black but, I don't think its the kind you are looking for