96 replies to this topic

[the Prince of Thorns]

Pinkie Baelish, on 27 February 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

Am I the only one bothered by the lack of Asian people in the books?

No

As everyone else said, I think people from Yi Ti or at least Leng are looking like an Asian.
I think we'll learn the answer in the World of Ice and Fire

[Deas agus Tuath]

Jam Maester Jay, on 27 February 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

It's true there are very few "non-white" characters in ASOIAF. However, I'm okay with that. The story's environs are clearly analogous to European mid- to late- middle ages culture. Given that premise, there was very little exposure to non-European cultures at that time. I'll bet there's a whole world of Asian or African equivalents in ASOIAF, just unobserved by the Westeros perspective.

I agree. I've been ecstatic so far about how realistic the interactions with the other continents have been so far since usually fantasy is 100% European. Here we do see the traders and there is a clear knowledge of the other places but it still is small enough that it doesn't seem PC.

I very much hope we see some more Summer Islanders but I would be just as happy if we did not. I do think it would be cool to meet some Leng traders though.

[WildBlood]

IIRC Summer Islanders are the only ones 'described' as black... Salty Dornishmen are described as lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair. Sandy Dornishmen are described as being even darker than salty, but the stony dornishmen are described as freckled and burn in the sun so i am guessing fair skin.

[TheSpottedCat]

People from Sothoryos are brindled http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brindle .
I think people in Essos have various skin colours. Lyseni are described as blonde with blue eyes (so I would assume white). Qartheen are pale (milk-pale, actually). People from other parts of Essos (Myr, Norvos, Braavos, the Rhoynar, the Volantene, the Dothraki and the Lhazareen) are dark or olive-skinned (darker than Westerosi). The people of the former Ghiscari empire are also darker skinned. Andals (they came from Andalos in Essos) were probably fairer.
People from the Summer Isles are black. They have black/African characteristics as well as dark skin.
The Valyrians, guessing from what remains of them (the Targaryens, the Velaryons) must have been white, perhaps with a touch of the unreal/extraordinary about them (judging from the silver hair and purple eyes).

[EnergeticCrab]

People from Naath also have darker skin.

[Urine Greyjoy]

Why does everyone complain when a work of fiction based upon Europe doesn't meet a specific quota of non caucasian people? Imagine the hysteria if white people went berserk every time a book, tv show or film about Asia or Sub Saharan Africa didn't have enough or any white people in it, people would instantly start calling us racists and nazis. It's absurd hypocrisy.

Edited by Urine Greyjoy, 09 May 2013 - 04:11 PM.

[thenedstark]

Urine Greyjoy, on 09 May 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

Why does everyone complain when a work of fiction based upon Europe doesn't meet a specific quota of non caucasian people? Imagine the hysteria if white people went berserk every time a book, tv show or film about Asia or Sub Saharan Africa didn't have enough or any white people in it, people would instantly start calling us racists and nazis. It's absurd hypocrisy.

Agreed. I'd much rather prefer to see racial equality come about in the real world. A completely fantastical world like ASOIAF or LOTR can have as many European characters as required and it will not make an iota of difference in the real world, unless equality is achieved in the latter.

[Michael Bolton]

Maester Domeric, on 27 February 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

now the people that I have the hardest time visualizing are the Ghiscari. anybody have any input on them (other than their red/black hair whatever that would look like)?

I thought Ghis was obviously Persia all the way down to wars with Rome (Valyria).

[Jon Flowers]

Michael Bolton, on 09 May 2013 - 09:56 PM, said:

I thought Ghis was obviously Persia all the way down to wars with Rome (Valyria).

I think of the Assyrian kings with their curly beards and cruel eyes still etched into their stele after two and a half millenia and more, but alot more foppish needless to say.  The portraits of later, Persian monarchs greatly resemble theirs though, just as theirs call to mind earlier dynasties and Naram Sin of the Sargonids, with his horns, may even have been an inspiration for Martin's choice of Ghiscari coifure.

[jpkellirl]

Nearly all of the civilisations mentioned [so far] in the series, have been based on, or had some similarities to, medieval or antiquarian cultures in our history. With the exception [IMO], of Valyria. Everything about The Freehold from its architecture, military, smithery, people, and, lest we forget, domesticated weapons of mass destruction! [i.e dragons], has an 'alien' quality that we simply do not see anywhere else in the story. I wonder if the Valryians is GRRM's homage to Moorcock, and Elric of Melnibone. One word... BLOODRAVEN! :-)

[The Storm King]

aren't sandy dornishmen supposed to be really dark?

[Michael Bolton]

Jon Flowers, on 09 May 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

I think of the Assyrian kings with their curly beards and cruel eyes still etched into their stele after two and a half millenia and more, but alot more foppish needless to say.  The portraits of later, Persian monarchs greatly resemble theirs though, just as theirs call to mind earlier dynasties and Naram Sin of the Sargonids, with his horns, may even have been an inspiration for Martin's choice of Ghiscari coifure.

thats a really good observation I can picture what you mean with the eyes and curly beards at a side angle exactly.

[Lady Lea]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 27 February 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

That's just picking any possible insult because Leo is an ass, not racism.

That was a very specific insult, though. Calling someone a monkey or a son of a monkey is one of the classic racist insults, I hear it all the time directed at black people. No one calls a person of any other race a monkey.

[thecryptile]

Lady Lea, on 10 May 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

That was a very specific insult, though. Calling someone a monkey or a son of a monkey is one of the classic racist insults, I hear it all the time directed at black people. No one calls a person of any other race a monkey.

Thats just not true at all. In the 19th century the Japanese referred to whites as monkeys (they might still for all I know), In Romper Stomper Russel Crowe's character refers to Vietnamese as monkeys, the French have been called cheese eating surrender monkeys by every talk radio host - calling someone a monkey to imply they are subhuman is a tactic used against all races not just people of African descent. An idiot I work with was calling our Mexican co-workers monkeys just a few days ago.

[Lady Lea]

thecryptile, on 10 May 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

Thats just not true at all. In the 19th century the Japanese referred to whites as monkeys (they might still for all I know), In Romper Stomper Russel Crowe's character refers to Vietnamese as monkeys, the French have been called cheese eating surrender monkeys by every talk radio host - calling someone a monkey to imply they are subhuman is a tactic used against all races not just people of African descent. An idiot I work with was calling our Mexican co-workers monkeys just a few days ago.

In Brazil, where I'm from, though, the term is used exclusively for black people. And we hear about our black football players being called monkeys when they play abroad, but not our white players. In ASOIAF, the only instance someone is called a monkey is the Leo/Alleras conversation. Alleras happens to have a Summer Islander for a mother and is black himself. That's not a coincidence. It's definitely racism.

I literally never heard of that insult for the French. What kind of radio shows are these? Vietnamese and Mexicans (i assume the Mexicans your co-worker meant are probably non-white ones) are people of colour so the insult applies.

[intheswamp]

As you say, Summer Islanders are black:  Jalabhar Xho, Black Balaq, Quhuru Mo, Kojja Mo, Xhondo, Bill Bone, etc...

Missandei is described as dusky, which means dark.  She is from Naath.  Tumco Lho is also dark skinned and from the Basilisk Isles.  These Islands are just north of Sothoryos.  Sothoryos probably has a dark skinned population (Its location is similar to Africa's on the map.)

Moqorro has pitch black skin, but I don't think his origin has been revealed.

Brown Ben Plumm is ummm brown.  His heritage is very mixed.  His dark skin probably comes from the Summer Islands blood.

Victarion has his "dusky woman".

Barsena Blackhair is dark skinned.

Edited by intheswamp, 10 May 2013 - 11:40 PM.

[thecryptile]

Lady Lea, on 10 May 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

I literally never heard of that insult for the French. What kind of radio shows are these?

I take it that in Brazil you don't have Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity. These are very right wing conservative talk shows that are widely broadcast in the US. The term cheese eating surrender monkey is considered more humorous than offensive here; likely because it refers to the French, who are widely disdained especially in conservative circles.

I didn't mean to imply that calling a human being a monkey wasn't racist, I just meant that racism isn't exclusively white and the term monkey is widely used to insult people of all races.

Another cross-cultural missunderstanding you might have with my statement is that in America, the term black refers almost exclusively to people of African descent. While many Brazilians would be viewed as black here due to thier African heritage, few Mexicans are. They are regarded as brown or hispanic.

Senator George Allen of Virginia (my home state) lost a Senate bid for re-election in 2006 largely because he referred to an Indian youth as a "macaca" a French word which means monkey. Again, most Americans wouldn't regard this man as "black" because he isn't of African descent.