400 replies to this topic

[Relic]

Horus Bergeron, on 15 June 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you're OKC you need to be a bit concerned with the incredibly slow starts they've had in both games at home.

Haha, yes, that's pretty obvious =P

[Maithanet]

I haven't seen the tape, but most of the calls against Durant were not ticky tack fouls, they were regular fouls that get called most every time.  It's possible there was one 50/50 charge/block call, but Battier had a 50/50 block/charge on Durant when he had five fouls with four minutes left, and it went for Durant.  There were some questionable calls, often against OKC, but it didn't seem like they were on Durant.  He had at least two plays where, knowing he's in foul trouble generally, he should have known better.

The refs could have called that one on Lebron at the end, but it's real tough to get the refs to bail you out in the final ten seconds.  I thought it was a fine no call.

For me the story of this game is Battier and Bosh.  Battier was awesome, playing great defense and knocking down shot after shot.  And Bosh was equally good on the defensive end, finally adding a big man presence to the Heat.  Miami is a totally different team when he is there to spread things out on offense and add some size/rebounding.

I hope that the Heat threesome can bring it every night like last night.  If so, this is indeed going to be a fun series.

[Morpheus]

Their were missed fouls for both thems. The simple truth is that The Thunder put themselves in a bad hole early on with poor shooting and decision making, they were terrible in the first quarter and as nice as it was that they eventually worked their way into the competiton by the fourth quarter, they basically gave the game away from the start. Not to diminish the play of the Heat, who for much of the game, looked like an actual team instead of Lebron carrying some occasionally responsive dead weight.

Edited by Morpheus, 15 June 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[Jaime L]

The one thing I didn't mention that I thought was ridiculous was the way over the top criticism of Russell Westbrook by Magic Johnson, Stephen A. and others calling his performance (primarily the first half performance) the worst by a PG ever in the NBA Finals. It's so hyperbolically over the top I don't even know where to start.

Could he have run the offense more efficiently? Sure. Should he be doing everything possible to getting Durant the best looks? Absolutely. But here's the simple facts: Durant missed a ton of the first half with two fouls so Westbrook had to take on more of the offensive load. Sure he was off his game early, but like all dynamic players, he got back into it in the second half. Moreover, he finished with a 26/8/7 line and only 2 turnovers - that's a fucking superstar performance, including some clutch makes in the final three minutes when Durant had momentarily gone cold. I know someone has to get the blame for the loss but this was ridiculous.

While I'd love to see Durant take 30 shots every game due to the attention he draws he can't always create his own shot as easily as Westbrook which sometimes leaves him passing the ball back out with 8 seconds to shoot and Westbrook left trying to figure out what to do with it. Yes, Durant should always be the first option because he is the most efficient scorer on the team by far. But a significant factor in OKC's offensive brilliance, and why they're so incredibly hard to defend, is Westbrook's unparalleled ability to create...for himself and others. Sometimes in that order. Like Lebron, it's become fashionable to criticize the guy when his team loses, but perspective...please.

Maithanet, on 15 June 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

I haven't seen the tape, but most of the calls against Durant were not ticky tack fouls, they were regular fouls that get called most every time.  It's possible there was one 50/50 charge/block call, but Battier had a 50/50 block/charge on Durant when he had five fouls with four minutes left, and it went for Durant.  There were some questionable calls, often against OKC, but it didn't seem like they were on Durant.  He had at least two plays where, knowing he's in foul trouble generally, he should have known better.

I don't have a problem with the charge calls, even if Battier flopped a little, because there was enough contact. The one that comes to mind is a foul called on Durant for reaching after one of the Heat players hauled in a rebound. Just let 'em play.

Edited by Jaime Bollocks, 15 June 2012 - 10:19 AM.

[Maithanet]

Jaime Bollocks, on 15 June 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

The one thing I didn't mention that I thought was ridiculous was the way over the top criticism of Russell Westbrook by Magic Johnson, Stephen A. and others calling his performance (primarily the first half performance) the worst by a PG ever in the NBA Finals. It's so hyperbolically over the top I don't even know where to start.

I don't have a problem with the charge calls, even if Battier flopped a little, because there was enough contact. The one that comes to mind is a foul called on Durant for reaching after one of the Heat players hauled in a rebound. Just let 'em play.

I didn't watch the postgame analysis, but I agree that Westbrook seems to get all the blame and very little of the credit for the Thunder.  His playing style is part of that, but he has been outstanding these playoffs.  His performance in the first half of game 2 was poor, but so much of the team was playing poorly, it is hard to really single him out.  And his second half was fantastic, he clawed the Thunder back into it, with Durant playing second fiddle much of the time.

As for the foul you mentioned... Haslem had the ball, and Durant choose to sweep his hand out and got all wrist.  Haslem then lost control of the ball, and it went out of bounds.  The ref can't let that play go.  And the risk/reward on that is pretty low for Durant.  He shouldn't be trying to make those kind of plays unless he has no fouls.  That's inexperience.

[aeu]

Maithanet, on 15 June 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

it's real tough to get the refs to bail you out in the final ten seconds.

I agree with you in principle and I'm fine with the idea, but I also think there should be a difference between a bail-out foul and a clear foul that clearly alters the chance of scoring. You don't want the refs to decide the game on the line, but they are also deciding the game when they don't give one team a fair chance. It just doesn't sit well with me. Let them go to overtime and duke it out.

And the one on Westbrook during the rebound seemed even more clear to me. He was skying all alone for the rebound and the follow up when Lebron grabbed and yanked his wrist right in front of the referee.  

Quote

but most of the calls against Durant were not ticky tack fouls, they were regular fouls that get called most every time.

I honestly thought many of the same calls were not made against Miami in these past two games, but I admit that this may be my anti-Miami bias. Forget about LeBron and Wade, even Chalmers seemed to get away with stuff that's get called on Durant.  If they did not call one or two of those fouls on Durant, it could have made a huge difference.

eta:

Quote

I don't have a problem with the charge calls, even if Battier flopped a little, because there was enough contact. The one that comes to mind is a foul called on Durant for reaching after one of the Heat players hauled in a rebound. Just let 'em play.

Exactly. Maithanet, I don't think the ball went out of bounds, Haslem still secured it. (If it went out of bounds from Haslem, I agree, you have to call that foul).

It was a bad play by Durant sure, and there was contact but had no effect on the game. Just let it go. They clearly were letting go plays on the other end with much more contact.  Even the Westbrook play at the end had 10 times more contact and they let it go.

Edited by aeu, 15 June 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[The Great Unwashed]

Jaime Bollocks, on 15 June 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

I don't have a problem with the charge calls, even if Battier flopped a little, because there was enough contact. The one that comes to mind is a foul called on Durant for reaching after one of the Heat players hauled in a rebound. Just let 'em play.

I thought that one was definitely the most egregious call against Durant, especially in light of the no-call against James on Durant's final shot when James obviously reached in and made contact with his wrist.

I definitely thought the refs were calling the game WAY too close all around for a finals game.

On the other hand, OKC really killed themselves at the line last night, shooting only 73%.  In addition, OKC shot 26(!) times from 3 point range last night, which is just ridiculous.  But when it really comes down to it, the Thunder let themselves get trounced in the opening quarter, letting the Heat get out to a 19-2 lead and having something like 7 turnovers in the opening quarter.  That's just bad, bad basketball and they can't dig themselves into a hole that deep and expect to climb out of it.

I really hope they can get their shit together in Game 3 in Miami.

ETA:  Did anyone see the goaltending call against Ibaka that was a double block?  It was where Sefolosha (I think) initially blocked the ball into the backboard and Ibaka then swatted it after it made contact with the backboard.  Can that really be counted as goaltending if your teammate is the one who alters the shot into the backboard?  Not to mention that it had no chance of going in.

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 15 June 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Maithanet]

aeu, on 15 June 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

I agree with you in principle and I'm fine with the idea, but I also think there should be a difference between a bail-out foul and a clear foul that clearly alters the chance of scoring. You don't want the refs to decide the game on the line, but they are also deciding the game when they don't give one team a fair chance. It just doesn't sit well with me. Let them go to overtime and duke it out.

And the one on Westbrook during the rebound seemed even more clear to me. He was skying all alone for the rebound and the follow up when Lebron grabbed and yanked his wrist right in front of the referee.  

I honestly thought many of the same calls were not made against Miami in these past two games, but I admit that this may be my anti-Miami bias. Forget about LeBron and Wade, even Chalmers seemed to get away with stuff that's get called on Durant.  If they did not call one or two of those fouls on Durant, it could have made a huge difference.

I agree that it seemed like a few close calls did go Miami's way, although thought more of those fouls were on Westbrook or the OKC role players.

But for the final ten seconds, in the NBA it is really hard to get the foul.  I don't see this as "they don't call that on Lebron" so much as "they let them play at the end".  I've seen Lebron get equally mugged on the final play and likewise not get the call.  Of course he would bitch about it later, but that's neither here nor there.

Quote

Exactly. Maithanet, I don't think the ball went out of bounds, Haslem still secured it. (If it went out of bounds from Haslem, I agree, you have to call that foul).

It was a bad play by Durant sure, and there was contact but had no effect on the game. Just let it go. They clearly were letting go plays on the other end with much more contact.  Even the Westbrook play at the end had 10 times more contact and they let it go.

I thought the ball went out of bounds, but I could be wrong about that part.  I remember on the replay thinking that was a clear cut foul, and a bonehead play.

[Jaime L]

Anyway, I hope the focus of the series doesn't center on the refs because underneath the bit of controversy that was a fantastic game last night. The most engaging I can recall watching in like 5 years.

Game 3's going to be really interesting. Lebron and Wade seemed to have gotten the memo that they're not going to be able to win this series by shooting jumpshots against the Thunder. They need to keep attacking the rim all night. It was ridiculous how open Shane Battier could be with the attention Lebron draws driving the lane. Think an underrated factor in Lebron playing so well in this fourth quarter compared to other games was this one the big lead afforded him chances to rest both in the first half and 4th quarter which I'm sure was huge in their fending off the late charge from the Thunder.

Anyway if I was the Thunder I would be reassured by the fact that Wade and Lebron both had the type of signature games their known for, Battier shot lights out and Bosh rebounded like a demon and OKC still only lost by the slimmest of margins. If they play smarter and more in control from the opening gun and don't fall behind 18-2 they can go toe to toe with Miami in the halfcourt game and likely run them out of the gym on second half fastbreaks when the benefits of their greater depth really let them shine.

[BLU-RAY]

Jaime Bollocks, on 15 June 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

The one thing I didn't mention that I thought was ridiculous was the way over the top criticism of Russell Westbrook by Magic Johnson, Stephen A. and others calling his performance (primarily the first half performance) the worst by a PG ever in the NBA Finals. It's so hyperbolically over the top I don't even know where to start.

Could he have run the offense more efficiently? Sure. Should he be doing everything possible to getting Durant the best looks? Absolutely. But here's the simple facts: Durant missed a ton of the first half with two fouls so Westbrook had to take on more of the offensive load. Sure he was off his game early, but like all dynamic players, he got back into it in the second half. Moreover, he finished with a 26/8/7 line and only 2 turnovers - that's a fucking superstar performance, including some clutch makes in the final three minutes when Durant had momentarily gone cold. I know someone has to get the blame for the loss but this was ridiculous.

While I'd love to see Durant take 30 shots every game due to the attention he draws he can't always create his own shot as easily as Westbrook which sometimes leaves him passing the ball back out with 8 seconds to shoot and Westbrook left trying to figure out what to do with it. Yes, Durant should always be the first option because he is the most efficient scorer on the team by far. But a significant factor in OKC's offensive brilliance, and why they're so incredibly hard to defend, is Westbrook's unparalleled ability to create...for himself and others. Sometimes in that order. Like Lebron, it's become fashionable to criticize the guy when his team loses, but perspective...please.

I wish I could like this post more; I almost made it myself last night.  I heard that comment, and then heard Stephen A. repeating it (and immediately saying, "well, Magic Johnson, one of the greatest of all time! said it" when the studio dude he was speaking to gave him a "dude, really?" look)... are you fucking serious?  I'm relatively sure Larry Hughes started four Finals games at one point.  Who were the Bulls' PGs in the '90s?

Westbrook was getting decent shots in the paint. They weren't going in, but after Durant has repudiated various media figures by saying that Westbrook shooting more is better for the team, you think they'd at least consider the point.  Durant is going to be Durant- and he's going to get doubled early (and he picked up two fouls before I'd even begun to focus on the game).  Magic Johnson is not a particularly good analyst of basketball, but he was such a great player that everything he says gets taken as gospel.

[Maithanet]

Jaime Bollocks, on 15 June 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

Anyway if I was the Thunder I would be reassured by the fact that Wade and Lebron both had the type of signature games their known for, Battier shot lights out and Bosh rebounded like a demon and OKC still only lost by the slimmest of margins. If they play smarter and more in control from the opening gun and don't fall behind 18-2 they can go toe to toe with Miami in the halfcourt game and likely run them out of the gym on second half fastbreaks when the benefits of their greater depth really let them shine.

Yup.  The only X factor to me is Bosh.  If he's close to healthy and playing like a star rather than just an also-ran, then the Heat Big 3 can actually be appreciably better than the Thunder Big 3.  We'll see if he can do that.

[Triskele]

Yeah, LeBron should rarely shoot the outside j.  Sure, he can hit it, but he is one of the most merciless attackers of the rim ever, and the D breathes a sigh of relief anytime he settles for the j.  If a guy like Battier is feeling it from outside, all the better.

[Commodore]

the Dream Team documentary is fantastic, I had a smile on my face the whole time watching it, the nostalgia of my formative years

[Triskele]

Commodore, on 16 June 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

the Dream Team documentary is fantastic, I had a smile on my face the whole time watching it, the nostalgia of my formative years

Awesome.

I have a question.  They suggested that Drexler was the last person added to the team (not counting Laetner).  I am totally biased, but if he was really the last person, I think he was more deserving of a spot than Mullen was and probably more deserving than Pippen too.

This video gets one small fact really wrong:  They say that the first Americas game in Portland versus Cuba was in "Portland's Rose Garden."  It was in the Memorial Coliseum.  The Rose Garden didn't open for a few more years.

[Calibandar]

I'm wondering if the team from 1992 is better than the current team the US can field. I mean apart from nostalgia, and I know this is hard to do, and acknowledging that there were some legendary giants in this team, but if all the top players now were fit ( and we know Howard, Bynum and Rose won't play, to name a few), is the current team a (much) lesser side?

Edited by Calibandar, 17 June 2012 - 06:04 AM.

[Relic]

Calibandar, on 17 June 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

is the current team a (much) lesser side?

In short, yes.

[BLU-RAY]

I'd disagree with that, to be honest. I think it'd be pretty damn close to even.  I think people discount heavily how much more athletic players are now than they were 20 years ago.  Sure, there's competitive fire and experience and will to win and all that... but nobody then could do the things Lebron can now; the team played a 6'4" power forward kind of consistently, Bird and Magic were past their primes... I get that Jordan was the greatest, but he's one player.  I would probably give the edge to the modern players.

Anyhow, Trisk, debating the roster of the '92 Dream Team is kind of a joke anyway; look over the list again and let it slowly dawn on you that Isaiah Thomas isn't on it.

[Rhom]

The other day I came across a full set of the McDonalds collectors edition Dream Team cups at my moms house.  I had forgotten that I collected all of them.

[Relic]

DVD ROTS, on 17 June 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

I think people discount heavily how much more athletic players are now than they were 20 years ago.

not at all. I'm fully aware of the size, strength, and speed differences. However, there is a lot more to basketball than pure athleticism, and these guys were amongst some of the smartest basketball players in the history of basketball. And with all the leaders on that team...i dont know. I can;t see anyone beating them.

[Trebla]

DVD ROTS, on 17 June 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

I'd disagree with that, to be honest. I think it'd be pretty damn close to even.  I think people discount heavily how much more athletic players are now than they were 20 years ago.  Sure, there's competitive fire and experience and will to win and all that... but nobody then could do the things Lebron can now; the team played a 6'4" power forward kind of consistently, Bird and Magic were past their primes... I get that Jordan was the greatest, but he's one player.  I would probably give the edge to the modern players.

Anyhow, Trisk, debating the roster of the '92 Dream Team is kind of a joke anyway; look over the list again and let it slowly dawn on you that Isaiah Thomas isn't on it.

I think you are discounting the bigs on the Dream Team, especially that 6'4 power forward. Ewing and Robinson at center? Malone and Barkley at power forward? Those guys all were dominant post players, something that the current players aren't all that effective at. While Bird was past his prime, Magic still was highly effective and would have been a nightmare to guard. LeBron would have had to have guarded him. You say Jordan is just one player, so is LeBron. Pippen could have guarded LeBron at small forward. Pippen effectively guarded Magic in the '91 finals.